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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through April 03, 2005 » Hi !! I'm back for a time. « Previous Next »

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Selena
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.232.83.139
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Could anyone tell me anything about the name Smith?

I'll be checking in and out. Did anyone miss me?
I was known as lostirishgirl. :cry:

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 222
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Smith? it means (black)Smith in English... why do u ask that question in an Irish forum?

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Canuck
Member
Username: Canuck

Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post


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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In many cases the surname Mac Gabhann or Mac an Ghabhann was translated as Smith, while in others it was anglicized as McGowan or MacGowan.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 223
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Canuck > she asked a question about the name Smith, not about its "equivalents" in Irish.

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Canuck
Member
Username: Canuck

Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, firstly, I don't understand why these surname questions keep popping up. However, in the spirit of giving help that this forum does so well, I thought she should know that there ARE irish with that surname. This is demonstrated by the above case where many people chose to change their last names to 'Smith'. Since she asked about the name 'Smith' in an Irish forum, one could only guess that she has an Irish ancestor with that name.

-Canuck

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 171
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"There can be no doubt that many of our Irish Smiths are the descendants of English settlers and traders, but it is equally probable that at least eighty per cent of the Smiths of County Cavan are of native stock, being MacGowans or O'Gowans who, under pressure of alien legislation or social influence, accepted the translated form and have used it ever since."

http://www.araltas.com/info/article08.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 163
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well,

A lady asked a question about a surname. That surname has an Irish connection. Valid question for this forum.

Just as valid as using Breton or Manx or Welsh (or French or Finnish or Latvian for that matter) to illustrate a grammatical point.

Relax, Looey.....it's just a web-site. It's not the language lab at your local University.

Le meas,

James

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Selena
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.232.83.139
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The name smith has been looked up and I'm trying to some my hertige, I've tried many sites on researching but you have to a member, and it's very expenive become one. I don't that much about my own hertige.

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 54
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Good point James!

I think it's very important to keep the allowable topics as far ranging as possible, as long as the topic is related to Irish, or if not directly related to Irish, can help members in the pursuit of the Irish language.

I for one am very grateful to Lughaidh and the many other members that have strengthened my knowledge of Irish. Sometimes the help is quite direct, such as discussions on a particular Irish word, phrase or dialect. Other times the help is indirect, such as a discussion on Irish surnames or another language like Finnish, where grammar or some comparison is made that helps me understand something, perhaps at a later time.

I would like to draw an analogy: this website is like a large convention hall, where many conversations are taking place. We would never think of going over to some group of people that are discussing something and tell them we're tired of hearing their discussion. They would just look at us and say, "well, you don't have to listen." I think the same applies here. If the subject matter of a particular thread is not appealing, then we should simply not participate in that thread.

Le meas,

Dáithí

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Paul
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.164.38.13
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Selena:

Here's what I found in the book The Surnames of Ireland, by Edward MacLysacht (it's a great book, and by the way,
it's available on amazon.com for $10.95):
"Smith, Smyth -- When not the name of an English settler family, Smith is usually a synonym of MacGowan, nearly always so in Co. Cavan. See also O'Gowan.
MacGowan -- Mac an Gabhann, Mac Gabhann. In Co. Cavan, the homeland of this sept, the name has been widely changed to Smith (though Smithson would be a truer translation); but in outlying areas of Breffny, MacGowan is retained."

I hope that helps you, Selena.

As to the relevance of the discussion of Irish surnames to this board, most if not all anglicized Irish names have an Irish-language counterpart. They tell a story that the anglicized name does not -- Gillespie is from Mac Giolla Easpuig, which I'd translate as "son of the bishop's servant." There have been many lively and informative threads on this board regarding surnames. If they were irrelevant to this board, I'm sure the administrator would have removed them.
100 years ago, my people spoke Irish and had the surname Ó Gríofa -- my parents were English speakers named Griffin. If a transition like that isn't central to Irish culture and history, I don't know what is.

Le meas, Paul

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Mack
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 12.75.183.8
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Good to hear from you, James. You are truly the voice of reason. Looey ought to loosen up a tad. He doesn't seem to have much patience with ordinary people - he's lost in the groves of macadamia.

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Dan
Member
Username: Dan

Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

are there any questions that don't relate to Irish and Irish culture? lets not all be so quick to jump down sombody's throat just because the question does not percieve to be ( at first) related to the topic! tho the thread was started with the question at hand .05$

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 225
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 02:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I've not jumped down anybody's throat. *You* feel that but that isn't what i meant at all...

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1181
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 04:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh, a chara (más ceadmhach dom sin a rá)
Cleachtann na Gael plámás, mar sin, má thugann tú freagra cruinn, gearr, borb ar cheist, feictear dóibh gur mí bhéasach atáir. Crá croí domhsa freisin é seo (chaith mé trian dem shaol sa Ghéarmáin, agus is innealtóir mé: mar sin, is fearr liom an fhreagra cruinn, beacht agus borb!).
Agus is minic iad teasaí dá bharr.

Táim ag ceapadh go bhfuil roinnt de'd scil sa ghaeilge ag dul amú ar dhaoine, toisc go bfeictear dóibh gur cantalán cheartchreidmheach den aos ghramadaí thú (nílim fhéin iomlán ar aon intinn leo).

Creidim gurbh fiú dhuit iarracht éigin a dhéanamh cuma níos séimhe a chuir ar do fhreagraí!

Admhaím áfach, gur chuir an cheist faoi Smith mearbhall ormsa leis (agus níor thugas aon fhreagra air dá bharr).

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I will add my thoughts on this discussion thread. First and foremost, this forum is sponsored by Daltaí Na Gaeigle, Students of the Irish Language, which promotes the use of the Irish language in all its forms. Even though the Irish language cannot be academically separated from any issue related to Ireland or the Irish, the principle focus is the Irish language. Moreover, in that this subject is related to learning and using the Irish language, the learning and use of other languages comes into the realm of possibility for discussion.

However, questions should somehow circle around the use of the Irish language. In my view, Lughaidh was just as justified in asking why the initial question was raised as was the seeker of the information in asking the question. I would hope, though, that comments and questions would somehow be framed within the context of the reason for this forum’s existence. After all, I can go to many other places to discuss all things Irish.

On another aspect to this discussion forum, which I know has been discussed in previous postings, I believe that if I am going to participate often that I would register and sign in as a member. Not withstanding the American entertainer Grouch Marx’s comment that he would never belong to any organization that would have him as a member, I see this as a common courtesy to the group as a whole. Everyone can see a little information about where I am coming from in my membership profile. I realize that there may be privacy concerns and ease-of-use issues involved, but I believe that I owe it to the people who took the time and energy to organize and maintain this discussion board.

In addition, all discussions should be conducted with the utmost civility in mind. Flame wars appear to result in too many digressions from the central themes of the threads.

My grandmother would say that conversations like these would get her Irish up. Now, I do not know if that is a compliment or not, so I am telling myself more than you, I believe I have used too much English already for this forum. Let me end by saying if I have disturbed anyone in my comments, go maith leithscéal, más é do thoil é.

Mícheál

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 481
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't place any weight with the idea of being a "member" here. Perhaps if there were some sort of criteria which one had to fulfill, or even some sort of test or initiaition, then yes I would think of membership as something meaniful -- but at the moment I don't pay attention to whether some-one here is a "member" or not, the only difference to me is that their name's written in a different colour! The only reason I myself became a member can be summed up in one word: "password". Now people can't post the likes of "I'm a big poo head" under the name "Fear_na_mbróg". Actually one thing that's been wrecking my head is how "Fear na mBróg" got turned into "Fear_na_mbróg"...

quote:

In addition, all discussions should be conducted with the utmost civility in mind. Flame wars appear to result in too many digressions from the central themes of the threads.



Yeah but the majority of us don't come here to listen intently and soak up every piece of information we can whilst sitting silently, motionless -- we come here to conversate. There's no fun in learning in a formal environment, especially when it comes to languages. So that's why I like a bit of an excitement, a bit of debate, maybe even mild argument, just to keep some lively informative entertaining conversation flowing!

quote:

Let me end by saying if I have disturbed anyone in my comments, go maith leithscéal, más é do thoil é.



No need for that attitude -- you've just expressed your opinion, you're not responsible for others' reactions to it, disturbing or not. I myself don't agree with you, but who's to say that I'm right either... other than myself of course!

If you feel that by becoming a member you're somehow expressing gratitude to the group, then by all means proceed -- it's the thought that counts!

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Fhear na mBróg,

I do notice a lot of postings from the same people who post as unregistered quests. I should look back at the archives or FAQs for there are probably other reasons why this way of posting exists. I suppose it does not matter to Daltaí one way or the other, but it made me wonder why some do and some do not post as registered members. It never occurred to me that someone would do to you in this forum as you said had been done to you. Tá brón orm, though you might say to me, why should I be sorry since I was not the one who did it, sílim.

Also, I do enjoy the conversations around controversial issues, but not when personal attacks flare up. I try not to jump to conclusions in my postings. I am getting a little annoyed with myself, however, on a slightly different angle. I find that I am spending more time at this discussion board reading the postings than I am studying in the ways that I need to become more fluent, and, for myself, I must restore the balance. Be that as it may, go raibh maith agat for your postings. I do indeed learn a lot from them. Now, I have just contradicted myself. I must continue to do both; whatever it takes to converse in Irish.

Mícheál

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Dan
Member
Username: Dan

Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I was not finger pointing. what I was doing was letting everybody know that "cant we all get along?" lets leave all egos at the sign in and just use some emoticons this will deflect some hurt feelings to be sure!... any way I was not getting "snippidy" Lughaidh a chara,I was meerly making a statement (a non judgmental one at that). I enjoy reading your postings and am learning from your replys Thanks to all on this forum for helping me learn. I did not mean to offend the forum if I did I am truly sorry

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 164
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 03:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well,

I see it this way; We are all custodians of this language. As such, we owe it to the language, the native speakers and aspiring students alike, to encourage their participation and involvement on this site. If the "foot in the door" is a question about a surname, then by golly we need to answer that question.

I would venture to say that those of us who are not native-born Irish began our interest in this language based on exactly this issue. That is to say, we were interested in the origin of our surname and its connection to our ancestral heritage. From that interest grew the discovery of an actual Irish language (amazing discovery it was!) and from that discovery we became, more by accident than by intent, students of the Irish language.

This goes right back to the dialect debate that was had not long ago. If an aspiring student asks "which dialect is best to learn" we do that person and the language an immeasurable disservice by going down that road. Find out how that aspiring student best learns and then steer that person toward the resource that best fits that methodology. Heck, we all eventually wind up with more than one "learn on your own" resource anyway!

The surname issue is just one more area where we should be receptive and encouraging. We should recognize this initial interest as the fertile soil where we can plant the seed of gaeilge and watch it grow. (Is that sappy and poetic enough for you???)

That's what I meant when I said.."Relax, Looey...." This isn't the rigidly adherent environment of a language lab where a student who pops in in the middle of class and says..."Hay, Ya'll....I was jus' wunnerin'...you all know what my las' name means in Irish" would be waved off in a not-so-polite fashion. It's a web-site and potentially an incredibly effective recruitment tool...it should be recognized and utilized as such.

Then again, if someone chimes in and asks..."Hey Ya'll...anybody know any cool links where I can find that IRA pamphlet on improvised munitions?"...perhaps this isn't the soil we want to cultivate!

In Looey's defense...he's a native speaker of french and this may be a contributing factor in his seemingly abrupt response. I'm sure I've miscommunicated my emotion more than once in Spanish....it's easy to do when you're attempting to communicate in a non-native language.

Le meas,

James

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Guest My Name
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.229.190.161
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In my view, Lughaidh was just as justified in asking why the initial question was raised as was the seeker of the information in asking the question.

That's right. He asked "why?" because he didn't know why. His question was easy enough to answer in 25 words or less. No need for 2500 or more.

Nevertheless, since we're having such fun testing the elasticity of this thread, here's one question for John/Jane Doe Learner:

What is your goal in studying Irish?

a) To speak, understand, read and write Irish as I would if it were my own native language and I were properly educated and literate in it.
or
b) To sort of dabble at it in a modern, streetwise, conversational, cool, fun sort of way for the rest of my life or until I get sick of it, or whatever.

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Mack
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 12.75.243.221
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Micheál - It's gabh mo leithscéal, not go maith leithscéal.

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 08:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat. Bhí a fhios agam sin. Bhí cearr bheag orm. (Thanks. I knew that. I was a bit off in my head.)

At least, I think that is what must have happened. Now I really feel humbled, more than by anything I said in English. Thanks again, for pointing it out to me, Mack.

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 08:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Mack,

It's "A Michíl," not "A Micheál."

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 09:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

My turn to be corrected....I missed an "h" and a fada.

It's "A Mhíchíl."

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 175
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It's also "a Mhícheáil"; and the name is also written "Micheál," for which the vocative is "a Mhichíl" (usual in Munster) or "a Mhicheáil" (usual elsewhere).

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If it is incorrect, correct it. This is one way how I learn. I saw it in Foclóir Póca under the entry for cearr as "tá cearr bheag air - he is a bit off in the head" and I thought I could make it past tense and directed at me. If this is not so, please let me know. Thanks.

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Pheadair,

Thanks for the information on Mícheál/Micheál. Tá mac agam agus Mícheál atá air. I didn't realize there were different ways to spell his name.

I notice that my Gaelicized name, "Dáithí," is spelled with an "á" or an "a." Are both correct? Does the variation follow regionally as with Mícheál/Micheál?

Le meas,

Dáithí

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 176
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 01:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dar liom féin ar ais aríst: ‘Tógadh go maith thú, is dóigh, aindeoin nach bhfuil tú anois acht ar shiubhal leat beul do chinn; acht tá cearr bheag ort chomh cinnte a's tá an Cháisg ar an Domhnach.’

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, “Indé agus Indiu”
__________

Dar leis féin: ní cearr bheag atá uirthi acht siabhrán mór, a's tá sí ag imtheacht leis an ghaoith.
_____

“Caidé chuir thar a stuaim an chéad uair é; nó an raibh an chearr air ó fhréimhidheacht?” ars' an Gasúr Mór.
_____

Dubhairt cupla duine go rachfadh siad a dh'amharc ar an fhear a raibh an chearr air, a's dar leis an Ghasúr Mhór go mbéadh sé leo.
_____

“Ó, tá,” ars' an fear a raibh an chearr air, “bhuail eagla an bháis mé, nuair a chonnaic mé gléasraí an chrochadóra cruinnighthe agat.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, “Mám Eile as an Mhála Chéadna”
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/
__________

cearr¹, f. (gs. ~a, pl. ~anna). 1. Injury, wrong. … An chearr a rinneadh ar a iníon, the wrong done to his daughter. 2. (Mental) derangement. Tá ~ (bheag) air, he is a bit gone in the head. (Var: m)

— Niall Ó Dónaill
__________

*cearr, Dearmad, breall, Bhail sin an áit a rabh an chearr ort.. char cheart baint do'n chrann..

— Cnuasach Conallach
A Computerized Dictionary of Donegal Irish
http://homepage.eircom.net/~gfg/c.htm

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on March 26, 2005)

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 177
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 04:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Dáithí," is spelled with an "á" or an "a." Are both correct? Does the variation follow regionally...?

The spelling "Daithí" probably reflects the Ulster pronunciation of "Dáithí" as dæ:hi: (and its influence elsewhere), just as "sláinte" is pronounced in Donegal as sLæ:N't'э, which sounds like "slainte" to a Galway speaker's ear.
__________

[In Iorras Aithneach, Conamara (Carna and thereabouts)]—
Hiatus is generally lost with coalescence of vowels yielding long vowels and diphthongs. A few words show various reflexes (long and short vowel alternating, h alternating with zero): h ~ Ø in OIr Dauid, Dabid > Dáibhídh, Dáithí:
dα:i: ~ dα:hi:
http://www.celt.dias.ie/gaeilge/staff/hpnas981.pdf
http://www.celt.dias.ie/gaeilge/staff/bocurn.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Pheadar. Is maith liom ag léamh do shamplaí. Tá siad cuidiú mór.

Thank you, Peter. I like reading your examples. They are a great help.)

Other ways to say things and corrections are always appreciated.

Mícheál

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Pheadair,

In reviewing posts, I see that your name gets an i before the r in the vocative. Can you sum up the rule for me? I recall reading about slender and broad vowels having an impact on this. I will keep looking in my grammar materials in the meantime. Thanks.

Mícheál

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 179
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Other ways to say things and corrections are always appreciated.

Irish is always full of surprises, and there is no chance that any of us will ever run out of things to learn about it. Lots of fun.

…an i before the r in the vocative…

For most masculine singular nouns that end in a broad consonant in the nominative, the final consonant is slender in the vocative (as in the genitive): Peadar > a Pheadair, Séamas > a Shéamais, Éamann > a Éamainn, Tadhg > a Thaidhg, gasúr > a ghasúir, pobal > a phobail. There are exceptions such as Liam > a Liam, stór > a stór; and more exceptions are made in the spoken language than in formal or standardized writing: a mhac, a leanbh may be used instead of a mhic, a linbh, and a fhear rather than a fhir.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Pheadair, mar i gcónaí, go raibh maith agat. Bíonn tú an-chuidiúil. (Peter, as always, thank you. You are very helpful.)

Mícheál

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Selena
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.232.83.139
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would have to say A) to learn and understand, and I'm 1/2 irish. Plus I have a tongue for lanugages.



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