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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through April 03, 2005 » Can anybody please help? « Previous Next »

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Christine
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 62.252.192.7
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi

I'm fairly new to Irish and I'm a bit confused over something. I'd like to know which form of the verb to use equivalent to the "absolute infinitive".

I want to be able to say "I saw him fall". I figure that "I saw" = chonaic mé, but I'm unsure of how to construct the rest.

Can anybody here help me please?

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Ronan Hegarty
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Posted From: 159.134.162.130
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello Christine, 'I saw that he fell' would be Chonaic mé
gur thit sé. I am fairly sure that 'I saw him fall' can be translated as 'chonaic mé é a titim' To say 'I saw him falling' just put in 'ag titim' instead of 'a titim'. Hope this helps!
Ronan

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 469
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 05:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I saw him fall
I saw his fall
I saw him falling


Chonaic mé ag titim é
Chonaim mé a thitim ("a thitim" = "his fall")

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 470
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 05:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Or maybe:

Chonaic mé titim dó

?

As in how you say:

blah blah blah, after Míoda came
bla bla bla, i ndiaidh teacht do Mhíoda

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 207
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I wouldn't say "Chonaic mé titim dó". I would say "Chonaic mé é ag titim" ("Chonaic mé ag titim é" sounds to me like "i saw him while i was falling", but maybe i’m wrong)

I think one says "blah blah blah i ndiaidh do Mhíoda teacht. ("after Míoda comes")

Or "i ndiaidh teacht Mhíoda" but it’s different ("after Míoda’s coming")

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1161
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I would have said it is "I ndiadh theacht do Mhíoda, blah, blah blah" (After Míoda having arrived, something else interesting happens). But it is very stilted.

Chonaic mé ag titim é - I saw him while he was falling
Chonaic mé é ag titim - I saw him fall

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 210
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I ndiaidh a theacht can be said but it's dialectal (mainly Ulster). I ndiaidh teacht or tar éis teacht in other dialects.

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 148
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

Chonaic mé ag titim é

I was a little uncomfortable with a pronoun following a gerund form of the verbal noun. However, I think that is correct since 'é' is the object of 'chonaic' and not 'titim.' If, for example I want to say
I saw him beating her.
Now 'her' is the object of 'beating' so one would say
Chonaic mé á bualadh é.
In Caidhdeán Oifigiúil, a pronoun is not allowed to be the object of a gerund form of the verbal noun.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Larry
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Username: Larry

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An interesting topic, a chairde!

To clear up a point raised in Christine's question, Irish does not have an bare infinitive. In English, the base form of the verb is used in order to express that concept. "I 'saw' him fall", "We 'watched' him go", "They 'noticed' him enter" etc..

Others in this thread have correctly pointed out that Irish uses a form of the verbal noun. Let me expand a little on what they've already written.

If you wish to say "I saw him fall" you have to say "I saw him falling", using the present participle, because what you're actually saying is that you saw him in the process of falling. Let me give a quick example:

Suppose (for the sake of this discussion) that you were making an official statement to the police following an accident and that your statement was going to be used in a court. If you actually witnessed the event, rather than its aftermath, you would have to phrase it "Chonaic mé é ag titim" - "I saw him falling". If, on the other hand, you only saw that he had fallen you couldn't say that you witnessed him falling; you could only say that you arrived on the scene after the event. In that case you would use Ronan's example: "Chonaic mé gur thit sé" - I saw that he fell.

Le meas,

Larry Ackerman

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 98
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
I don't mean to be pedantic... but English doesn't have an infinitive, in the strictly grammatical sense... sorry... but I am being pedantic.
Le meas,
Chris

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 135
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 06:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

What do you call the forms:

To be

To run

To walk

etc?

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Christine
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 62.252.192.7
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 06:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ronan, Fear_na_bróg, Lughaidh, Aonghus, Lúcas and Larry.

Thank you for your responses to my question. Here's the gist of my problem:

I have a glance card which I picked up in a little bookshop when I was in Dublin a few months ago. It's the only resource I own and I'm trying to understand the syntax of an Irish sentence.

I've learned quite a bit from reading the various threads on this forum. You're all far more advanced than I am so I have a supplementary question.

Does the "ag" change to "a" in a question and/or past tense?

An bhfaca tú é a titim? - Did you see him falling?

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Dean
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Posted From: 12.75.242.9
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It changes before a consonant.

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Christine,

"Did you see him falling" would be "An bhfaca tú é ag titim." I don't think the "ag" changes because it stands for "at." As with the other prepositions in Irish, "ag" has its personal forms (ordinary forms = agam, agat, aige, aice, againn, agaibh, acu), but when used before a verbal noun, e.g. "titim," its spelling is unchanged.

Here's what "Learning Irish" has to say about "ag"

Ag (@g') 'at' which is unstressed precedes all verbal nouns (excepting bheith) in 'progressive constructions of the sort 'the tree is growing'. The g in ag is pronounced only before a vowel. It is usually broad before a,o,u, e.g. ag ól ('@go:L) and slender before e,i, e.g. ag imirt (@g'im'@rt')

In the above quote, I couldn't figure how to make the schwa, so I'm used @ instead.

Le meas,

Dáithí

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 34
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In written Irish, ag doesn't change to a in the past tense, or in a question, without a direct object.

Tá mé ag dul go dtí an siopa - I am going to the shop
Bhí mé ag dul go dtí an sipoa - I was going to the shop
An bhfuil tú ag dul go dtí an siopa? - Are you going to the shop?

However, if the sentence contains a direct object, the word order changes somewhat and the verbal noun takes a instead of ag. This a lenites the following verbal noun.

Ba mhaith liom bainne a cheannach. - I would like to buy milk.

Larry Ackerman

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dháithí, a chara,

To display the schwa, ə, input the character tag used for this forum with the argument 601. It looks like /char{601} except that the slash goes the other way like \char.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Mas miste leat ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge.

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 35
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 04:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

... or, to use Christine's example:

Tá sé ag titim - He is falling
Bhí sé ag titim - He was falling
An bhfuil sé ag titim? - Is he falling?
...
Chonaic mé é ag titim.

Larry Ackerman

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 36
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lucas, a chara,

That shows on my screen as a plain rectangle ?????

Larry Ackerman

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Christine, a chara,

Larry is right as rain as usual. Let me extend his point. There are three forms in Irish that are usually translated into English as infinitives. As Larry said, one of them is the verbal noun, lenited, and preceded by the particle a.
quote:

Ba mhaith liom bainne a cheannach

Another form usually translated into the English infinitive is the verbal noun all by itself.
Is fearr imeacht.
It's better to go.

Iarr air teacht.
Ask him to come.
Another form usually translated into the English infinitive is when le or chun is used instead of the particle a. These prepositions are used when the speaker wants to show purpose or intent.
Tá sé le labhairt ar an chruinniú.
Tá sé chun labhairt ar an chruinniú.
He is to speak at the meeting.

Chuaigh sé ar an aonach chuna cheannach.
Chuaigh sé ar an aonach lea cheannach.
He went to the fair to buy a cow.
Since titim did not appear in the sentence you quoted without a, le, or chun then it should have been lenited. Chonaic mé é a thitim.

(Message edited by lúcas on March 26, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Mas miste leat ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge.

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 159
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Larry,

My guess is that you do not have the schwa charater set in the font being displayed on your browser. If you are using Microsoft's Internet Explorer go to the Tools menu and click Internet Options. On the General tab, click Fonts. In the Web page font and Plain text font lists, click on Times New Roman or Courier.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Mas miste leat ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge.

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 37
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I've tried your suggestion but it doesn't seem to make any difference a chara. However, it's a little off topic so I'll leave that for another time. Thanks anyway.

Le meas,

Larry Ackerman

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 59
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 06:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Lúcas, a chara,

Thanks for help with the schwa; I haven't figured it out, but I'll keep trying.

Although the subject has been expanded to include situations where there is a direct object in relation to the verbal noun, in Christine's example there is no direct object in relation to the verbal noun "falling."

Your examples contain direct objects in relation to the verbal noun, and I see where they require "a" instead of "ag," but I still think the correct form is "Chonaic mé é ag titim." Maybe I don't grasp the subject correctly, so I would appreciate any clarification.

Le meas,

Dáithí

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 178
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mar sin féin, do bhí sórt trua agam féin do ar shlí eile nuair a chonac ag imeacht uainn é agus a eireaball trína dhá chois ag an ainniseoir bocht.
_____

Do chonac ag féachaint ar a chéile iad, ach níor ligeas faic orm, ach suí síos ar mo chorraghiob i ndeireadh na naomhóige, agus lámh ar gach gunaill agam, díreach mar a chínn á dhéanamh ag an bhfear a bheadh díomhaoin sa naomhóig i gcónaí.

— Pádraig Ua Maoileoin, "Na hAird Ó Thuaidh"
__________

Ní raibh scian cháis ina bhéal ag Forrú agus é ag cur cloch i ndiaidh cloiche sa bhalla tornóige, ach sin é an tsamhail a d'fhan in aigne an Stócaigh de ón lá a chonaic sé ag baint na feamainne duibhe é.

— Máirtín Ó Direáin, "Feamainn Bhealtaine"
__________

Dá bhfeicinn ag titim suas é sin é an t-am a ndéanfainn an t-iontas de.

— Seán Ó Ruadháin, "An Mothall Sin Ort"
__________

Nuair a chonnaic mé ag imtheacht siar uaim é 'na líbín bheag bhocht bháithte, damhnughadh gur bhuail aithreachas mé.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Saoghal Corrach"
__________

"Nuair a chonnaic mé ag imtheacht thú agus cupla slis ghiumhais leat," ar sise, "shaoil mé nach raibh tú acht a' gabháil síos 'un na caslach a chur paiste ar a' churach."

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Bean Ruadh de Dhálach"
__________

Is cuimhin liom an sgaramhaint. Chuaidh tusa chun na Róimhe. Chonnaic mé ag imtheacht thú agus chaoin mé, nó bhí cion agam ort.
_____

Chonnaic mé ag dul isteach ar Gheafta Shusham agus ar Gheafta na hÁilne É.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Ben-Hur"
__________

Chonnaic mé ag dul suas an chéidh i gcuideachta a chéile iad.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Seideán Bruithne / Amy Foster"
__________

Chraitheamar dhá láimh le chéile, agus nuair a thug mé m'aghaidh síos bruach crochta na h-abhann chonnaic mé ag gabhail isteach ina phuball go suaimhneach é agus ag drod an chanafáis 'na dhiaidh.
_____

"D'imthigh mé liom ar tús an dá luathas agus a chonnaic mé ag fágáil an champa iad.
_____

Annsin tháinig Starlight 'un tosaigh agus d'umhluigh sé do na cailíní, mar dheánfadh sé, dá mbíodh sé ag teacht isteach i dteach cuirme — chonnaic mé ag umhlughadh an dóigh chéadna é uair ag cuirm ghalánta a bhí acú ag an Turon, le airgead a bhailiughadh do'n otharlainn.
_____

Chonnaic mé ag cainnt leis an chailín sin Marston thú.
_____

Chonnaic mé ag gabhail isteach thú go díreach nuair a nocht Sir Ferdinand agus an péas."

— Domhnall 'ac Grianna, "Gadaidheacht le Láimh Láidir"
__________

"Níl a fhios agam an cuid de é seo?" ar sise: "‘Chonnaic mé ag teacht chugam í i lar an tsléibhe, Mar réaltóig fríd an cheo.’"

— Tadhg Ó Rabhartaigh, "Thiar i nGleann Ceo"
__________

Chonnaic mé ag dul thart í ach ní rabh fáth ar bith agam a coimheád.

— Proinnsias Ó Brógáin, "Eachtraí Sherlock Holmes"
__________

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Christine
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 62.252.192.7
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dean, Dáithí, Larry, Lucas and Paedar,

Thank you very much indeed for all those replies. There's a lot to get my head around with all that but I'll get there eventually.

Thanks again guys.

Christine.

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 41
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá fáilte romhat - You're welcome

Larry Ackerman



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