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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through April 19, 2005 » Tá díoma orm! « Previous Next »

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Seanog
Member
Username: Seanog

Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Seo scéal do na chainteoirí sna 6 chondae! Nuair a bhí múinteoir comhra s'againne ag dul chun a agallamh a dhéanamh sa scoil sula bhfuair sé an post, dúirt an sparánaí leis "now usually we only hire native speakers for conversation assistants" agus dúirt seisean, "I am a native speaker."

"But you're from Belfast."
"Yes, just down the road. And?"
"Eh...well...what makes you a native speaker if you aren't from the country of the target language?"
"What makes me not from the country of the target language?"


Tchí tú daoine mar sin, ní fhéadaim cur suas leo...duine Éireannach mar an gcéanna atá ann ag labhairt cac mar sin??

Cad iad bhur mbarúil air seo? An síleann duine ar bith eile go mbreathnaítear ar an Ghaeilge ar nós teanga Mickey Mouse sa Tuaisceart in amanna?

- Seán Ó Treasaigh

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Better Mousecrap??
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.193.10.1
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"do na chainteoirí...Nuair a bhí múinteoir comhra s'againne ag dul chun a agallamh a dhéanamh...cac mar sin"

[do na cainteoirí...Nuair a bhí an múinteoir comhráidh s'againne ag dul a dhéanamh a agallaimh...]

That is, unless you mean your teacher was sick and you've confused "coffin" with "coughin'"??

I'm a native speaker too, oh yeah. Me mam and me da have had "galore" and "smithereens" in their natural, active vocabulary since they were knee-high to a grasshopper.

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Better Mousecrap??
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.193.10.1
Posted on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Cad iad bhur mbarúil...?"

Dear "Beagnach líofa!":

Cad É bhur mbarúil...?

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Seanog
Member
Username: Seanog

Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 05:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá mé ag foghlaim, tá mé ag foghlaim, bí deas liom. But I didn't mean "coughin" or "coffin" at all, I meant "going for his interview"!

"Cad é bhur mbarúil" - ah true, should've thought of that one.

- Seán Ó Treasaigh

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Better Mouse
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.192.33.7
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"bí deas liom."

Okay, but you be nice to those who want Irish to be taught by people who really have it, rather than by people who have learned about it but don't get it, or have "gotten it" from people who don't get it, if you get what I mean.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 206
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

One can be a native speaker from Belfast if he has been raised in irish by native speakers from the Gaeltacht. There are Donegal speakers in Belfast so it's possible. But if he has learnt from learners, he's not a "traditional speaker", let's say.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.67
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

'Tchí'

Chonaic mé ríomh. Céard atá é?

I've seen it before. What is it?

Agus, a Shéanóg, an bhfuil tú a cainteoir dúchais, ach do scil ag scríobh 'OK', ná ar d'fhoghlaim tú ó dhaltaí eile?

And, Séanóg, are you a native native speaker, but your skills in writing fail to concur with your oral proficiency? or did you learn from other learners?

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 468
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 04:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

'dj@ks, here's s little help:

Take the two following following sentences:

A) The boy is a student
B) The boy is big

In "A", you're describing the boy by using a noun.
In "B", you're describing the boy by using an adjective.

Here's the Irish:

A) Is dalta é an buachaill
B) Tá an buachaill mór

Different verb!

I'll correct your last post:

Chonaic mé ríomh. Céard atá é?

Want you want here is:

Céard is é?

This will be abbreviated though to:

Cad é?

But... there's another way of describing something by using a noun:

A) Is dalta é an buachaill
B) Tá an buachaill ina dhalta
C) Tá an buachaill mar dhalta

Trying to explain the difference between them would be like trying to explain the difference between:

A) I have it
B) I've got it

It's a sort of subtle difference that takes quite a big of usage to cop. Anyway, back to the point -- I'd have said:

Tá sé feicte agam ríomh -- cad atá ann?

an bhfuil tú a cainteoir dúchais

An cainteoir dúchais thú?
An bhfuil tú i do chainteoir dúchais?
(You wouldn't use the third form here, ie. "mar")

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Seán a' Chaipín
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 83.104.38.8
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 08:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I find that people like Better Mousecrap above do the most harm to Irish language revival.

I think it should be a golden rule never to correct anyone's converational Irish unless they specifically ask for someone to check over it.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.216
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 09:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fear_na_mBróg,
thank, I appreciate the correxions. With'An bhfuil tú i do chainteoir dúchais?' I agree the natural way is the idiomatic way, kind of 'ar you in your native speaker?'. Given my previous schooling in Irish I can start and write out sentances, but don't really know what I'm writing, like some sort of spirit 'automatic writing' in the Victorian Age, where the channel just let her hand write away, without been conscious of the content.

Of course its not quite that non-conscious. Still I am reconsidering 'just doing it' after reading this site: http://www.antimoon.com/how/mistakes-damage.htm

It is an English langue site, and a lot of the points tally with findings from psychology about feedback loops and learning. The guys there are Polish, who speak USA english, supposedly, in speaking. Their advice (for anyone who does not want to read too many pages of it) is that one should read and listen, know the phonetics and pronounciation, and always model your sentances after examplars from the target langue, so as to always strive for 100% accuracy.

Sounds logical, only I think it might require a decent level of cognisance in the target langue for one to be conscious of the mistakes and then self correct. Most learners here would not be of that level yet, and I don't what level that is. I certainly would be blind to a lot of mistakes.

Seán a' Chaipín,
I don't think it is bad to correct others. I was hoping mine would be when I started bi-lingual posting. I mean, noone wnats to end p with their own langue based on Irish, only oneself can speak!

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 208
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 10:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The link Jacks has given is really good. I fully agree with what is said there. Just a quotation that is very important:

"If you don't make many mistakes, then you can speak or write in English and it can only help. But if you make many mistakes, then every time you write or speak, you reinforce your mistakes. [b]As you write or speak, you repeat your mistakes constantly and your incorrect habits become stronger.[/b]"

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Breacban
Member
Username: Breacban

Post Number: 74
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

i think mouse trap is talking through his proverbial. If you listen to a lot of native speakers their speech is riddled with grammatical errors. If you listen to most people speaking english or any other language you will probably find the same thing. The worst thing to hear is the same old tired inane arguement about incorrect grammar which was drummed into kids in irish schools for the last 60 years. On average 13 years tuition or 1500 hours is spent to produce students who cannot hold even the most basic of conversations in their own language . The only place for that sort of thing is either in acedemia or in the sign post department of your local county council. I think we have enough sign writers why not give us a few more speakers for a change?

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Seanog
Member
Username: Seanog

Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Okay, but you be nice to those who want Irish to be taught by people who really have it, rather than by people who have learned about it but don't get it, or have "gotten it" from people who don't get it, if you get what I mean."

Alright, I'm an A level student of Irish, but yes, I'm still learning. Was there any need to shun my Irish and basically tell me not to use it on this board, for the sake of a few mistakes mate? I think, as much as some of the board users are Irish language pros, that there is an air of snobbery when one finds that one's Irish is better than another's. The reason I visit the forum is to exercise what I know and gain some knowledge at the same time; to be shunned because of a few grammatical errors isn't helpful.

I myself am not a native speaker, but the guy I'm on about was brought up through the medium of Irish as his first language, and he calls himself a native speaker. Now, my point was, who gives the bursar of the school the right to tell him he's not a native speaker just because he's from Belfast?

"Tchí" is an alternative verb for "feic" by the way :) Heard a lot in Ulster.

(Message edited by seanog on March 21, 2005)

- Seán Ó Treasaigh

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.46
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Séanóg,
if yer man is from the Falls Road Gaeltacht, I don't see why he would not be native. It sounds like the interviewer or board has a policy of traditional gaeltacht Irish, at least in theory, and the influence of English in Belfast Irish would/might label you and him as different to their ears.

That yellow book 'In our own language' I think (can't find the reference), outlined how informal Irish is heavily influenced by English in Belfast among native speakers. Was that the crux?

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Seanog
Member
Username: Seanog

Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yep, he's from the "Gaeltacht Quarter" as they say lol. I'm not sure what the bursar was getting at but the north is full of anti-Irish language people and it riles me up, even people who are Irish themselves.

I have to agree, you can so easily get away with sticking in the odd "fuck" and any other English [curse] word you can't think of straight off into Irish conversation here in Belfast. It's the done thing - it could be just the way it's developed or it could be Feirstians just being lazy as hell!

- Seán Ó Treasaigh

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Ó_diocháin
Member
Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 97
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
There are plenty of people in Belfast - and elsewhere in the sé chontae - whose first language is Irish. They are definitely native speakers, by any definition that is purely linguistic.
The emergence of a distictive (and very vibrant) form of modern Ulster Irish is, in my opinion, one of the most interesting linguistic phenomena in Ireland at the moment.
How this variety of the language will eventually be accomodated is an issue on which only time will tell, but the rate at which it is growing indicates that it is not going to go away.
I for one would think that a native speaker of this variety would make an excellent model for other northern learners to imitate.
A Sheáin Óg, a chara, I sadly share your experience of ante-Irish language feeling in some very unexpected places in the north, but have also found pro-Irish language feeling in a lot of unexpected places too, among the traditionally unionist community. I'd suggest you just keep up the good work and hang in there. Four hundred year ago, Ulster was the Gaelic heart of Ireland... maybe those days will come again.
Slán beo!
Chris

(Message edited by Ó_diocháin on March 25, 2005)

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1187
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The pedant in me finds it hard to resist this:

quote:

I sadly share your experience of ante-Irish



One hopes Chris is a prophet! (ante before, anti against)

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Google
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.192.12.3
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 01:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

That yellow book 'In our own language' I think (can't find the reference)

Maguire, Gabrielle. (1991), Our Own Language: an Irish Initiative. Clevedon: Multilingual Matters.

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 01:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Four hundred year ago, Ulster was the Gaelic heart of Ireland... maybe those days will come again.



a chairde

i have a question on donegal/ ulster dialect. I was reading a pronunciational dictionary put out in 1958 under the name An Seabhach. In it the author refers to the "two major dialects" of irish. i believe in my research i have come across other statements like this, which ignore the Donegal dialect. Was the Donegal/Northern speech marginalized in irish state and school language discourse in ireland post-1920s? if so, does anyone know why? Isn't it a core dialect?

DC

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 161
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 08:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhancas, a chara,

T.F. O'Rahilly's Irish Dialects Past and Present was one of the first books to address the issue of Irish dialects. He argued that there were
quote:

two major dialects

the Northern Dialect and the Southern Dialect. The idea of three major dialects; Ulster, Connacht, and Munster came later. Perhaps, your dictionary was alluding to O'Rahilly's concept of major dialects.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
Mas miste leat ceartaigh mo chuid Gaeilge.

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Ó_diocháin
Member
Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 99
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 09:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghuis, a chara,
All I can say is that if I am a prophet, then I am a prophet not recognised among my own people!
More likely.. I should proof read more carefully what I type before I post.
Le meas,
Chris

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 230
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>An Seabhach

I think it's "An Seabhac" = the Hawk/Falcon

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1197
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An fear céanna. A pen name for Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha from Baile an Ghóilín in Corca Dhuibhne.

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Most Harmful Mouse
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.229.190.161
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

here's s little help:

Make that: "here's little help."

Chonaic mé ríomh. Céard atá é?

Want you want here is:

Céard is é?


No, what he wants there is:

Chonaic mé an focal sin cheana. Céard é?

This will be abbreviated though to:

Cad é?


Oh, will it really?

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Tired, Inane Mouse
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.229.190.161
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 08:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post


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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1200
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 05:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

69.229.190.161: whoever you (or youse) are.
Why not be constructive, rather than sniping from behind a changing pseudonym?

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 169
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

More of the same stupidity from the self appointed grammar police. Y'know...correcting someone can be done in a supportive, encouraging way or it can be done in an obnoxious, egocentric way....

"The Mouse" has chosen an appropriate pseudonym....small furry vermin that lurks about in corners and crevices leaving little bits of crap wherever he goes.

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 01:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think it's "An Seabhac" = the Hawk/Falcon

A Chara:

Curiously, An Seabhach, "The Hawk," was also the moniker of IRB founder James Stephens; given to him during his famous walking tour of Ireland in the years after An Gorta Mo/r.

DC

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Méabh
Member
Username: Méabh

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think I've seen the likes of the "Mouse" before on Beo.ie and other forums. If he is who I think he is...then "Ná bí féadána!" (piping and bold like a certain Fétan of yore) There are nicer, more contructive ways of giving pointers on Irish grammar.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 250
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

An Seabhac. C and ch are NOT pronounced the same way in Irish.

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Nice Mousie
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.229.190.161
Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Nach lách an luch mise anois, muis!



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