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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through March 22, 2005 » Article on Irish at Notre Dame « Previous Next »

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Aoghagán_mccoy
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Username: Aoghagán_mccoy

Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post


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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.59
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní raibh mé ag diasáil do scéil, ach mothaigh mé nach raibh a idirdhealú móir a déanta abair: "Gaeilge = teanga amháin, Hiberno-Béarla = an teanga eile".

Arsa a bhean is ainm Katie Scarlett O'Hara: "The language is very guttural, messy and thick." Ceapann a lán daoine go bhfuil ‘Irish’ an cineál Bhéarla, agus níl alt glan ar a pointe sin.

I'm not dissing your story you put up, but I felt that the alticle did not make a suitable and veritable distinction between the langues of Ireland, Gaelic and Hiberno-English.

The girl called (what a ******* cliché!) Katie Scarlett O'Hara says "The language is very guttural, messy and thick"...just what a lot of Americanos would think nuair a hear they 'de Oirish aksent' (brogue). The article was not clear to point out there was distinctions to be made.

Níl a fhios agam dá c'est très important, anyway, but, like, you know.

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Aoghagán_mccoy
Member
Username: Aoghagán_mccoy

Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A dj, A Chára,

I agree with your points, but, in my opinion, when a major University in the US makes an effort to promote the Irish language, we should take notice. This is a good thing. We have to look past the nonsense to the heart of the matter.

ACM

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.59
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Conas ceapann tú mo phointe é ráiméis? Croí an scéil? Céard é sin?

"...the heart of the matter."

What is the heart of the matter? Fools with silly names pretending to be Irish? A few symbols abstracted from their original meaningful context and re-realised as a few japes for the yank with the identity crisis?

Promotion of a syllabus and promotion of gaeilge 'as is' thru a living visceral aesthetic community are two very different things. If it means some of them will support the likes of Dún Chaoin and Ceathrú Thaidhg, grand. If it means that Irish America can bank roll another ego trip for a few 'trust fund Kennedys', well thats a seperate unrelated issue.

The tone:

"Donald Keough [of] $13 million Keough-Notre Dame Centre in Dublin...does a good job of integrating Irish and American perspectives, said John P. Harrington, president of the American Conference for Irish Studies"

suggests a form of modern 'think tank lite' discourse in a lazily academic, soft beurocratic style. The perspectives they would be interested in, I'd bet the bottom dollar, have nothing to do with gaelic in any meaningful manner. Irish Studies is more a past time for rich people.

For all his billions what did Chuck Feeny really do for Ireland? Went on a massive, 2 decade, multimillion dollar ego bender, thats what, with the result that hes heated up for life on his own supply.

The reality is is that most middle class and upwards Irish American have a distorted notion of Ireland, unrelated to any historical or comtempory reality, and are rich enough to set up courses in colleges to cater to thier fantasies.

How many Irish american have said to me something derogetory about the Unionist population in the north east, a culture they know nothing about? This is ironic as the American church has gained many of the timbres and dogmas of Protestantism.

Irish history is our shared history by blood, but the crass and facile notions that flit about for fact are off colour to say the least. God sake, 'Katie Scarlett O'Hara'. Its like naming your kid Jimmy 'Michael Jackson'!

What I'm saying is that a little tea party as gaeilge wont do much for anyone. I'm not attacking you ay all, but Irish America is known for trading in egos. It is mostly about fantasy and horseshit. Dressing up as a pharoh, does not make me egyptian, nor speaking Irish 'Celtic'. That is the heart of the matter.

PS I did not attack Chuck, nor do I worry where he spends it. I did not say he 'should' spend it on anthing, like gaeilge, in particular, but that his generosity has a personal quirk, not a benificial act towards Ireland.

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Paul
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Posted From: 66.152.218.225
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Please accept our humblest apologies, on behalf of all of us ignorant yanks.

Regards,
Paul

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Alix
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 64.231.37.35
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would have to disagree with you. Although I'm sure some of your points are valid, and I have little personal experience with US culture. I would just like to reinterate that there IS a positive way to view this article.

If Irish has gained somewhat of a popularity at this school, I see it as a good thing. The more people become aware of another countries language, the more they open their minds to understanding a difference culture and people. In my view these american students would be less likely to have the opinion that everybody should just speak english and the opinion that it is a useless exercise to keep part of a culture alive when it is not overly convenient to do so...and yes, I run into these annoying opinions more often than I would care to say.

Furthermore, sometimes parents name their children stupid names...you can hardly take fault with the poor girl for something her parents picked out. I mean, some celebrity named their kid Moonunit in 60s. Poor Moonunit didn't have a choice.

Whether or not Irish Studies is a pastime for the rich...well, again, I don't know US culture enough to fully contest this. However, as a Canadian who is very interested in Irish history and language (and who is not rich, not at all) I can say that whether or not they are serious about Irish studies, or whether or not they have a distorted view of Ireland, is irrevalent. The point is, that pasttime and that distorted view, led them to take university courses where there is a little doubt that they will be led to learn the truth about Ireland, thus changing their distorted view into an accurate one.

It is for these reasons that this artical and the teaching of Irish studies at North American universities does benefit people...it leads to less ignorance about Ireland and more appreciation for not only the Irish language, but also other world languages. In every language there hides knowledge not contained in another, whether it be 52 words for snow or simply a different emotional take on a common concept.

Also, I don't know where else you expect people to learn about Ireland. For a north american student it can cost as much as 29,000 euro for one year at a university in Ireland...if Irish studies are not promoted in the US, then you would really have trouble with Americans having a distorted view of Irish society and culture.

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Dundas
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Posted From: 69.229.190.161
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 06:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, Jax, de name Breandán Ó Buachalla lands a sarten credibility to de whole ting, I'm tinkin.

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Narrowback
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 24.185.223.101
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"I'm not attacking you ay all, but Irish America is known for trading in egos."

Of course there's no trace of ego in your little rant is there?

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.253
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Please accept our humblest apologies, on behalf of all of us ignorant yanks."
-Paul

Do not think Americans are 'Yanks'. Don't think one objectively incorrect statement by one person renders them less as a person, or stupid, or that their whole country by extension is daft. I praised Americans before on this site for learning Irish, but did so in my attempt at Irish.

I ahve a new 'policy' of bi-lingual posts -they are generally ignored, as is of course, anyones perogative. I write it to improve my Irish recognition, for myself obviously, but also to act in the spirit of the site, and to show those who would not do so, that it can be done.

Since I feel most non speakers here are Americans I took the leap to Irish communication as an act of solidarity with other non speakers, which might include you, as I reckoned a lot of people might be afriad to do or did not think such a thing possible. I also posted a URL http://borel.slu.edu/gramadoir/form.html which allows the grammar of Irish to be checked, if anyone wanted a tool for helping themselves. If this discussion had not ocured I would never have mentioned it again.

There is something like only 1900 posts in Irish ever, in the last 6 years in Irish. The English posts regularly out pace it every 2 months or so. We should be more proactive in using Irish. I don't say that because I ahve tried it, but because using it is one of the points of the site.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.253
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aoghagán_mccoy,
bhuel, mo phríomh pointe: níl mé ag rantaíl fút.

I must try to seperate the point from the person who brought it up.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.253
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Alix,
"If Irish has gained somewhat of a popularity at this school, I see it as a good thing. The more people become aware of another countries language, the more they open their minds to understanding a difference culture and people."

I hope so to. I was trying to make a specific (or narrow?) point. Of course good can come from bad, beyond the original intent of the people involved. An introduction to anthropology for myself in college meant traval and langue interests and I feel anthro gives people the tools to be more culturally rounded by pointing out the relitivisms in particualar norms hed by ones district or culture.

"Furthermore, sometimes parents name their children stupid names...you can hardly take fault with the poor girl for something her parents picked out. I mean, some celebrity named their kid Moonunit in 60s. Poor Moonunit didn't have a choice."

Ha ha! Love it! Neither did that poor young lad, one of the Cavan lads I went to school once told me about; one pronounciation of Aonghus/Aungus sounds like 'Anus'. And in Cavan too...god help the poor lad.

"...whether or not they are serious about Irish studies..."

I'm sure many of them are far better academically than me, and are serious about their subject. I meant it is hardly 'Irish' in that there is two cultures to think about: Gaelic/Celtic and then the British created Hiberno-English culture represented by shamrocks and begorrah and excessive drinking...the last feature a result both of the heinous pains of the Famine and the associated sundering of national culture and esteem, and the imaginings of the Punch writers. Literially, some Irish 'cultural features' were imagined by the British and projected onto a mallable fractured land where such imaginings might just work. The embougoisement of the masses in 20th century USA & Europe really happened when thru film people seen how those in the 'big house' and New York penthouse really lived. They wanted a piece of it too. As markets and industrial bases changed, via education and technology, more and more people got to have a physical experince that did not include living in huts. So mass media is powerful in pushing thru intents. Much of the dross that is 'Irish culture' has no root in European or Gaelic tradition. to be Irish, it could be argued, si neither English nor Gaelic.

"... whether or not they have a distorted view of Ireland, is irrevalent..."

Well outside of been omniscient perhaps attacking on the issue of distortion should be done within strict limits. What do I know of Irish history? A record is not the event itself, and we dont even have many records, Druidic, Celtic Christian, Hiberno-French nor Norman to draw on. I simply meant (and by using an example of the Unionists) that they appear to be talking about a fantasy. What I should have really said, is that I feel aesthetically in my body, emotionally, that what many Irish Americans are talking about is different to current Irish and personal views on Ireland. They are not de facto wrong, but seem out of step with contempory Ireland, and also in what they reach out for in history. They want roots, and validity to thier ethnic identity as Irish American, while still been strong Americans. Many Irish Americans have more 'pure lineages' than I. I ahve no native speakers known about on either side. Leitrim, Fermanagh, and Cavan switched to English before many parts of even Leinster had fully done so. I'm English by direct blood (excepting adoption in the lineage).

"The point is, that pasttime and that distorted view, led them to take university courses where there is a little doubt that they will be led to learn the truth about Ireland, thus changing their distorted view into an accurate one".

Of course we are not living in perfection, baby steps and all that to get where we need to go. Each generation can with feedback become more tuned to requirements than the last. Perhaps there should be a number of courses dedicated to the needs of each group than need them, lite or hardcore.

"It is for these reasons that this artical and the teaching of Irish studies at North American universities does benefit people...it leads to less ignorance about Ireland and more appreciation for not only the Irish language, but also other world languages. In every language there hides knowledge not contained in another, whether it be 52 words for snow or simply a different emotional take on a common concept."

Well on a bigger level, the appreciation of other really non European cultures, in a way perhaps not seen before by a continent, started with stories from the orient told and retold around tea tables in Venice coloured by tales of Singeor Marco Polo and his adventures in far away China and its wonders. The colonial escapeds of France, England and Holland has led to a gamut of material showing how limited we are to accept the taboos and dogmas of one group when so many around the world are no more objective, so are are ours so permenent either?

"For a north american student it can cost as much as 29,000 euro for one year at a university in Ireland..."

Ya, the Chinese are hammered too...they pay to get in, pay Unis then work for tax to shovel into the great black hole (Irish Goverment).

"if Irish studies are not promoted in the US, then you would really have trouble with Americans having a distorted view of Irish society and culture."

Your considerate answer has shown that there are easy methods of convaying points of view. Thats not to say I will give a toss if I insult a few Boston Celtics affiandos now and again.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.253
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Well, Jax, de name Breandán Ó Buachalla lands a sarten credibility to de whole ting, I'm tinkin".
-Dundas

Excellent acedemic credibility and faculty does not mean that all ostensible statements are by extension 100% valid in all cases. A great tool can be misused. I hear that the AK-47 has great workmanship.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.253
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"I'm not attacking you ay all, but Irish America is known for trading in egos."

Of course there's no trace of ego in your little rant is there?

Rant? Maybe. Ego? No. I could write you a 20 page answer 'cos I write a lot. Therez no over excessive peddle to the ego involved, just a personal style of writing.

Very pert is mo shcríobhneoireacht as gaeilge, but i havent heard too much Irish piping from your direction. Go on, put yourself out a little. Come out of the closet.



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