I am excited to see that in this chapter that Micheal starts to deal with verbs in a major way.


Regarding the type 2 verbs, do they usually have a short vowel in their second syllable?

Jim,

I think they do. Here is a list of type 2 verbs taken from Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge le Nollaig Mac Congáil:

AN DARA RÉIMNIÚ - ROINN 2
achtaigh, adhraigh, admhaigh, agair, aifrigh, aimsigh, ainmnigh, airigh, áirigh, aiséirigh, aistrigh, aithin, aithris, áitigh, altaigh, aontaigh, athraigh

bagair, bailigh, bunaigh, básaigh, beachtaigh, beannaigh, beartaigh, beathaigh, beirigh, bioraigh, bisigh, beathaigh, bodhraigh, bolaigh, bréagnaigh, breathnaigh, breithnigh, brostaigh, buanaigh, bunaigh

cabhraigh, cáiligh, caomhnaigh, ceadaigh, cealaigh, ceangail, ceannaigh, ceansaigh, ceartaigh, ceisnigh, ceistigh, ciallaigh, cigil, ciontaigh, ciúnaigh, claochlaigh, cláraigh, clúdaigh, codail, cogain, coigil, coinnigh, cóirigh, comhairligh, comhlánaigh, comhordaigh, comhréitigh, cónaigh, corraigh, coscair, cosain, cothaigh, cothromaigh, creathnaigh, críochnaigh, cruinnigh, cruthaigh, cuardaigh, cuidigh, cuimhnigh, cúisigh, cúitigh, cúlaigh, cumhdaigh

damhsaigh, damnaigh, dathaigh, dealaigh, dealraigh, dearbhaigh, deifrigh, deimhnigh, deonaigh, díbir, dícháiligh, dírigh, diúltaigh, dreasaigh, dúisigh, dúnmharaigh

eachtraigh, eagraigh, éalaigh, eascair, éiligh, éirigh, eisigh, eitigh, eitil

fadaigh, fáiltigh, feistigh, fiafraigh, fiosraigh, foghlaim, fógair, foilsigh, folaigh, freastail, fulaing

giorraigh, gnáthaigh, gníomhaigh, gnóthaigh, gortaigh, greamaigh, gríosaigh

ídigh, imigh, impigh, imir, infheistigh, inis, íobair, iompaigh, iompair, iomair, ionsaigh, ísligh

labhair, laghdaigh, leasaigh, leathnaigh, léirigh, línigh, liostaigh, litrigh, lochtaigh

machnaigh, maisigh, maistrigh, malartaigh, mallachtaigh, maolaigh, maothaigh, maraigh, marcaigh, maslaigh, meabhraigh, mínigh, mionnaigh, móidigh, moilligh, mothaigh, muirnigh, múnlaigh, múscail

náirigh, naomhaigh, neadaigh, neartaigh, neodraigh

oibrigh, oiriúnaigh, oirnigh, ordaigh, oscail

peacaigh, plandaigh, plódaigh

ramhaigh, ramhraigh, reachtaigh, réimnigh, réitigh, rianaigh, righnigh, roghnaigh

sáinnigh, salaigh, samhlaigh, saoirsigh, saolaigh, saothraigh, sáraigh, sásaigh, satail, scanraigh, scrúdaigh, seachnaigh, saolaigh, sealbhaigh, sínigh, síolraigh, síothlaigh, slánaigh, sleamhnaigh, smachtaigh, smaoinigh, snasaigh, socraigh, soilsigh, soiprigh, soirbhigh, soláthraigh, sonraigh, sruthlaigh

tabhaigh, tagair, taithigh, taobhaigh, tapaigh, tarraing, táthaigh, teagmhaigh, teastaigh, timpeallaigh, tiomnaigh, tiomsaigh, tiontaigh, tochail, toiligh, tóraigh, tosaigh, trasnaigh, trasnaigh, treoraigh, triomaigh, truailligh, tuirsigh

uachtaigh, uaisligh, ualaigh, údaraigh, uimhrigh, umhlaigh

It seems most of them have a short vowel in the second syllable.

Lucas,

Go raibh maith agat!

A chairde,

Could you elaborate on "short vowel in the second syllable?" I think it means that the vowel in the second sentence is pronounced using its short sound, but are there variations between dialects when pronouncing the second syllable's vowel? Are there instances where the second syllable's vowel becomes long?


Go raith maith agaibh,

Dáithí

A Dháithí, a chara,

Your question made me revisit the list and discover that I was not completely correct. When I scanned in the list I noticed that only 6 of the 241 verbs in that sample had a fada in the second syllable. Therefore, I jumped to Jim's conclusion that most of the second syllables were pronounced with a short vowel.

However, I have noticed that you use questions the way Socrates used irony. So it seemed to be prudent to revist the list,and I discovered that 199 of the verbs (> 80%) had the second and last syllable ending in -igh.

This -igh ending has a long and a short pronunciation in Irish, depending on the dialect. In Munster, I believe this ending is pronounced with a short i and a slender g, like the pronunciation at the end of the English word trick. However, in Connacht and Ulster, I believe this ending is pronounced with a long i, like the pronunciation at the end of the English word catastrophe.

A Lúcas, a chara,

I'll have to check my copy of "Learning Irish," but I thought it's the Connacht dialect that has the short vowel sound for the "igh" endings. I also thought that the Munster dialect had the long vowel sound for "igh," but I could be totally wrong. For the Ulster dialect, I have no idea; that's why I asked the question so I could understand the dialectical differences.

That's quite a list of verbs you've listed above. Go raith maith agat! Did you type them in yourself? I have a copy of Mac Congáil's "Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge" and find it very well written, but..........

WARNING - SOCRATES TECHNIQUE AHEAD!

On a separate note, did you notice on page 211 of Mac Gongáil that "fáilte romhat" is indicated as a response to "thank you?" And just when I was starting to believe that "tá fáilte romhat" might be an Anglicism, Mac Gongáil puts the seed of doubt back into my head.

Le meas,

Dáithí

A Lúcas a chara,

I took a look at Chapter 12 of Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish" and see that the Type 2 verbs have a short vowel in the second syllable. The first verb in your list above that appears in Chapter 12's list of verbs is coinnigh (to keep, hold). The pronunciation is shown as /kiN'@/ , where I'm using @ to represent the schwa, or short vowel sound. In Foclóir Scoile, for Type 2 verbs, the vowel in the second syllable is shown to be long. For example, for the same verb "coinnigh", Foclóir Scoile indicates a long vowel sound for the second syllable and is shown as kon'i:.


In "Teach Yourself Irish" (2nd rev. edition, pg 10) it indicates that "igh" is pronounced "i:" (long) in the north and "ig" in the south. Am I correct in taking the "south" to mean Connacht and Munster? Then, if so, summarizing we have for the vowel sound in the second syllable for Type 2 verbs:

Ulster and Standard Irish: long vowel sound

Connacht: short vowel sound

Munster: short vowel sound followed by "g"


My summary above is no more than speculation and would appreciate corrections and/or amendments to the summary.


Le meas,

Dáithí

A Dháithí, a chara,

quote:

That's quite a list of verbs you've listed above. Go raith maith agat! Did you type them in yourself?

Here at the monastery our scribes use the latest in copying technology. Our Abbot replaced the quills, ink, and parchment a few years ago when Brother Microsoft joined the order.

In this case, a scanner feed a bitmap to an Optical Character Recognition program with an Irish spellchecker. The OCR output an ASCII stream to a word processing document for a second spellcheck with another Irish spellchecker. All that was left was a cut and paste into the forum's input.

When reconsidering the list, the Word file was imported into a spreadsheet and a quick VBA script was written to count the verbs and the verbs that end in -igh.

Deus ex machina.

This conversation has been more interesting than even I expected when I asked the first question.

Dáithí's comments raise another question. In "Learning Irish," when forming the plural second person imperative the type 2 verbs get an ending with a long vowel.

So, apparently Connacht Irish replaces the short vowel of the second syllable of the second person singular imperative of the type 2 verb with a long vowel in the plural second person imperative. (say that 10 times fast!) Perhaps this helps to distinguish the 2 forms in conversation.

If other dialects have a long vowel in the second syllable of the second person singular imperative of some of their type 2 verbs, then what do the other dialects do in the plural second person imperative of the type 2 verbs? Do those endings have short or long vowels?

Please excuse me if I have made this question hopelessly complicated!

A Lúcas, a chara,

Maith thu! Not only was your response absolutely hilarious, I now aware of how technology is coming to the aid of the Irish language.

After getting involved with this conversation on the second syllable, I was thinking of making a spreadsheet of the dialectical differences for verb endings. We've talked a little about the verbal ending for the imperative mood, but I'm also interested in differences for the other tenses and moods. For example, for the future tense, there appears to be a short vowel sound for Connacht, and a long vowel for Munster, but I'm not sure. I would like to capture on parchment, er... I mean in a spreadsheet these differences.

Being adialectical (I just made that word up), I would understand the differences in the dialects so that I can understand speakers from the different areas of Ireland. I would also like to be able to speak the different dialects when appropriate. It might sound like a tall task, but I have a very basic understanding, and appreciate any input from other members on this subject.

Le meas,

Dáithí

A chairde,

James, your question is not hopelessly complicated; it is quite clear. Unfortunately, the concept of dialect gets hopelessly complicated. For example, Dáithí said he

quote:

took a look at Chapter 12 of Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish" and ... Connacht: short vowel sound

The problem is that Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish" does not describe the Connacht dialect. It describes a Connacht dialect, namely, the Irish of Cois Fhairrge.

' Cois FHAIRRGE ', as far as one can ascertain from the people of the Gaedhealtacht of West Galway, is applied to that area which stretches along the coast from about Bearna, itself a few miles west of Galway City, to somewhere about Casla. Some people limit its extension to the districts immediately
surrounding the villages in question in the present work, An Teach Mór, and An Lochán Beag, which are situated about fifteen miles west of Galway, on the coast road, and are in the centre of Cois Fhairrge, if the name is given its broader interpretation.

Tomás de Bhaldraithe, The Irish of Cois Fhairrage, Co. Galway, Revised, The Dublin Instutue for Advanced Studies, 1975, p. ix.

Ó Siadhail's Modern Irish: Grammatical structure and dialectical variation, Cambridge University Press, 1989, p. 5 argues that Cois Fhairrge is but one of 11 different Connacht dialects:

Inishere	Cois Fhairrge	Carna	Erris
Inishmaan	Rosmuck	Leenane	Tourmakeady
Inishmore	Lettermore	Menlough

Ruairí Ó hUiginn, "Gailge Chonnacht," Caibidil VII, Stair na Gaeilge, Coláiste Phádraig, pinpoints more than 40 Connacht dialects on a map on p. 540. On p. 555, Ó hUiginn goes on to agree with Ó Siadhail about the schwa /ə/ pronunciation of -igh in Connamara. However, he points out that people in Northern Connacht tend to pronounce it with a long i /i:/.

2.33 Maidir le dh/gh deiridh, ní mór idirdhealú a dhéanamh idir an fhorás a thagann air in ainmfhocail agus a fhorás i mbriathra. Cailltear an dh/gh deiridh in ainmfhocail, agus cuirtear fad le guta gearr neamhaiceanta i Maigh Eo agus i dtuaisceart Chonamara, m.sh. deireadh /d'er'u:/, deiridh (gin. u.) /d'er'i:/, bacaigh (gin. u.) /baki:/. Is minic a ghiorraítear iad seo (> /u/, /i/), go háirithe i bhfoirmeacha allegro, agus is é an nós seo is gnáiche i nGaeilge Iorrais m.sh. madadh (CO madra) /madu:/ ach madadh fireann /madə fir'əN/ (féach 2.18 thuas). I ndeisceart agus in iarthar Chonamara is mar /ə/ a deirtear na deirí seo, m.sh. deireadh, deiridh /d'er'ə/, bacaigh /bakə/, ach amháin i gcorrfhocal nó i gcorrleagan mar a gcuirtear fad leis an nguta meamhaiceanta, m. sh., filidh /f'ili:/, a stócaigh /sdo:ki:/.

Wait there's even more. The first linguist to write about Irish Dialects wrote a whole chapter on the -igh ending.

CHAPTER VII
FINAL -IGH
Final -idh in Irish became everywhere -igh, in sound, in the course of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Afterwards -igh, whether original or derived from an earlier -idh, developed differently in different dialects. Everywhere the gh sound has disappeared from -igh, for Modern Irish has shown a strong tendency to rid itself of the voiced guttural spirant except when it serves as the lenited form of initial g- and d-.

In Southern Irish the development of -igh has taken two different directions. In Munster -igh has in general become -ig, e.g. mínig for earlier mínigh, gealaig for earlier gealaigh (dat. of gealach). The natural tendency to drop the spirant was countered by a reluctance to allow a useful inflectional ending like -igh to become merged in a weak and indistinctive -e or -a; the result being a compromise, -ig, by which both ends were attained, namely, the abolition of the gh and the preservation of a distinctive ending. Hence, too, in a limited number of words in which -igh had no inflectional value, we find Munster Irish dropping final gh, as, for instance, in Ó Dála, Baile (an) Bhuinneána (Ballybunion), iumarca (Mid. Ir. iumarcraid), easba. As to the date of the change of -igh to -ig, contemporary English spellings of Munster place and personal names show plainly enough that the change was already an accomplished one in the latter half of the sixteenth century, though it is possible, or even probable, that the -gh was at that period, and for some time later, in use also, side by side with the newer -g.

On the other hand in Laighin (and probably also in N. and E. Tipperary) the desire to preserve a distinctive ending failed to make itself felt sufficiently to interfere with the ordinary course of phonetic evolution, and so the gh of -igh was simply dropped, so that -igh became -e (-i), and -aigh became -a, e.g. mine from minigh, geala from gealaigh. This usage is found as far north as Dublin, S. Westmeath, and King's Co. It also spread across the Shannon into S. Roscommon and into a large part of Co. Galway.

In Northern Irish also the -gh disappeared, but the preceding short vowel was lengthened by way of compensation, so that -igh has become -í, e.g. miní from minigh, gealaí from gealaigh. This is found in N. Galway and N. Meath, and everywhere to the north of these districts. In Ulster the -í from -igh was, as we shall see, liable to be shortened later on, like other long unstressed vowels. Inasmuch as -ighthe also has given -í in the Irish of the Northern Half, while -ighe (-idhe) has become -í everywhere, we see that three distinct endings have become confused in Northern Irish, e.g. ceannaigh. ceannaighe, and ceannaighthe, have all fallen together as ceannaí, whereas Munster Irish keeps the three distinct, as ceannaig, ceannaí, and ceannaihe (or-aha), respectively.

A mixed usage, embracing both -a (or -e) and -í, was found in S. Longford, and no doubt in other places also where the two dialects came into contact.

When a verb in -igh is immediately followed by a pronoun subject, the -igh is no longer treated as final, and everywhere, as a rule, the -gh simply drops out, e.g. mhine sé from mhínigh sé. Sometimes in Northern Irish the same thing happens when the -igh is followed by a noun-subject beginning with a consonant, e.g. mhíne (or mhíní) Seán é. In Irish, as we have seen, -igh and -idh have had precisely the same development, for both fell together many centuries ago, when dh lost its dental character and came to be pronounced as a guttural spirant (gh). When we turn to Scottish Gaelic, we are confronted with a different state of things, …

Thomas F. O'Rahilly, Irish Dialects: Past and Present, Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1932, pp. 53-56.

Wow...I'm speechless! Thanks for sharing your scholarship!

Hm, I would have some hesitations about the 11 Connacht dialects mentioned. Some of them are really the same dialect and some dialects still used in Connacht are missing. It is certainly true that there are minute differences between the three Aran islands and Cois Fhairrge (they are even very common ones) but I would hesitate to call them different dialects. If they are indeed 4 different dialects, then there are at least some 10.000 different dialects of Swedish...

A Jonas, a chara

You said

quote:

If they are indeed 4 different dialects, then there are at least some 10.000 different dialects of Swedish...

That is the point I was trying to make. At some point, arguments about dialect seem to me to be like arguments about how many angels can fit on the pin of a needle. Isn't the concept of dialect a bit vague?

Isn't it like Linneann classification where speakers are grouped into some species/dialect according to how many attributes they share with some archtype? For example, de Bhaldraithe wrote a treatise on the Chois Fhairrge dialect, referenced earlier, based mainly on the speech of one speaker, namley Mícheál Ging. Ging becomes an ideal speaker against whose patterns of speech other speech is classified.

While useful at some level in explaining variations in speech, I suspect all arguments about dialect ultimately can be reduced to the absurdity of "some 10,000 dialects of Swedish." This is possible because I do not think a precise definition of dialect is possible.

For example, I think most would agree that every individual has a unique speech pattern. If that is so, then what is the difference between an idiolect and a dialect? Is it some subest of shared varaint attributes from the standard? How many attributes do they need to share? It gets hopelessly confusing to me. Forgive me my diletante's naiveté.

Thank you Jimnuaeabhrac for your thought provoking question. I learned something about type 2 verbs I did not know before.

My purpose of bringing the issue of dialect into the conversation was to understand the differences that exist at the level which would be useful, as Lúcas mentions above, in explaining variations of speech. I used "Learning Irish" as a reference since it's the book that Jimnuaeabhrac referred to when starting this thread. I thought that the concept of dialect was well established in regards to the Irish language.

So, back to Jimnuaeabhrac's question

quote:

Regarding the type 2 verbs, do they usually have a short vowel in their second syllable?

Is there an answer to this question? If so, does the answer depend on the three major dialects in Irish, or does it reduce to the "absurdity of 'some 10,000 dialects of Swedish'?"

Le meas,

Dáithí

"...plural second person imperative. (say that 10 times fast!"

Just did. Experienced immense pleasure.

Déan mé. Bhí an eispéaras go brilliant.

The argument, a Lucas, was to how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. I'm not sure what the pin of a needle would be.

A Dháthaí, a chara,

I think there was a answer given above, but it did quite fit into the paradigm of "three major dialects in Irish." The Connacht "major dialect" did not prove to be as uniform as hypothesized. O'Rahilly wrote that some people in Connacht pronounce final -igh as -í /i:/ and some people in Connacht pronounce it with a schwa /ə/.

If I could summarize, I think we saw that about 80% of type 2 verbs have the second syllable end in a final -igh. If you look up any of these verbs with final -igh in the Foclóir Poca you are likely to discover that they are pronounced like final -í, where the dictionary gives the phonetic guide of /i:/. Foclóir Poca phonetic guides make up what is called the Lárchanúint or core dialect, what I think you meant by standard. Combine all this and I think you can safely say that most of the endings of the second syllable of type 2 verbs are pronounced with a final

• -í /i:/ in
  
  • the majority of Irish schools, i.e., in the Lárchanúint,
    
  • Ulster, and
    
  • North Connacht
    
  
  
• -schwa /ə/ in South Connacht, and
  
• -ig /ig'/ in Munster.
  

It is not very different from what you hypothesized at the beginning of this thread. However, it is a counterexample to the notion of "three major dialects."

O'Rahilly, by the way, posited that there were two major dialects of Irish, one for the north and one for the south. If you think of South Connacht as a boundary between the the north and the south then this idea of major dialect may fit this example a little better. South Connacht lost the gh like the north, but it took the short vowel sound from the south.

Actually, although it is often claimed that medieval theologians argued about angels dancing on heads of pins, this is not true.

They did argue about whether a spiritual being would occupy space, which is not quite the same thing.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_132.html

http://www.yaelf.com/swot.shtml#nglsnhdpnvrssnglsnp

(Message edited by aonghus on March 16, 2005)

Sorry, Daisy, but some theological arguments, like some dialectical arguments, are too hard for me to fathom.

A Lúcas, a chara,

Thanks for the excellent summary! I also very much appreciate your efforts in explaining aspects of dialects that I never realized.

One of the hardest things I find as a beginner in Irish is missing the words that someone is speaking because of the different ways those words could be said and the fact that I may have only heard the words said in only one manner. I would liken the confusion to a learner of English hearing someone say "I'm goin' down to the store," when they've never heard "goin' before. For me that subtle difference from a long vowel to a short vowel in Irish is enough to throw me off. When the variations in sound at the end of the word are combined with the variations at the front of the word due to sheimhu and úru, I often fail to understand the word at all.

On a related note I notice that, depending on the part of Ireland, there's a difference in pronunciation in the endings for verbs in the future tense also. So, I'm wondering if your summary above could also be applied to the future tense. I'll do a little research myself to see if this latest hypothesis is true. I'm sure I'll get sidetracked into dialectical, sub- and sub-sub-dialectical issues, but hopefully you'll be there to pull me out of total confusion.

Le meas,

Dáithí

Thanks to Seán a' Chaipín's posting on the thread "alphabet," here's some more information on the pronunciation of verb endings depending on the dialect. It also gives some information on the past tense of the Type 2 verbs.

Dáithí

Oops, I forgot to include the website that contains the information on verb endings:

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/ortho.htm

A chairde:

Does this pronunciational alignment for the type two verbs between Ulster and North Connacht dialects with what is taught in "the majority of schools and the Lárchanúint" hold true generally?



QUOTING: Combine all this and I think you can safely say that most of the endings of the second syllable of type 2 verbs are pronounced with a final


-í /i:/ in

the majority of Irish schools, i.e., in the Lárchanúint,

Ulster, and

North Connacht



-schwa /ə/ in South Connacht, and

-ig /ig'/ in Munster.


"...it is a counterexample to the notion of "three major dialects."



This is such a fascinating topic. Go raibh maith agat.

dc

However, it is a counterexample to the notion of "three major dialects."

O'Rahilly, by the way, posited that there were two major dialects of Irish, one for the north and one for the south.

That's right.

The northern Mayo dialect of Erris (Iorras) and Achill (Acaill) is in grammar and word-building essentially a Connacht dialect, but shows an affinity in vocabulary with Ulster Irish, due to large-scale immigration of dispossessed people following the Ulster Plantation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language

True of Achill, but not particularly true of Erris, except Ballycroy. Mayo is Mayo. Erris and Tourmakeady are much closer to each other dialectally than Erris is to southern Donegal, or Tourmakeady to Cois Fhairrge; and yet people lump southern Mayo together with Connemara, and northern Mayo together with Ulster, or refer to "the remnants of Mayo Irish, which has now been mostly supplanted by English" as "a mixture of (or compromise between) Connaught and Ulster dialects," or simply forget or ignore Mayo altogether. That's as far off the mark as calling Catalan "a dialect which is a mixture of French and Spanish," or calling Sardinian "a hybrid of Spanish and Italian."

Pop quiz:
The Irish verb meaning "I come" has three forms used in the different dialects: tagaim, teagaim and tigim.
In what Gaeltacht areas is each of these normally used?
Which is the oldest?*
Which is the newest?*

*Hint: see Dinneen.

A Pheadar,

tagaim - Munster
teagaim - Connacht
tigim - Ulster

Isn't your pop quiz a counter-counter example to the notion of "three major dialects?"

Le meas,

Dáithí

Isn't your pop quiz a counter-counter example to the notion of "three major dialects?"

Nope. You "forgot" Mayo.

"Nope. You 'forgot' Mayo."

Welcome back Peadar, and keep the Connacht flag flying! Connaght abú!

Djaks > Connaught is Connaught in English, Connachta in Irish (Connacht is the Irish genitive).

In Ulster it’s tigim, thigim or taraim (this one is used in Ros Goill). The oldest form is tigim, it comes directly from Old Irish "t-ic" = he comes...

Lughaidh,
in Ireland Connaught and Connacht are used in writing the name, so I just picked...oh you mean 'connachta abú' -well cheers for the toke.

To clarify: Connacht and Connaught are used in English.

Connacht (ainmneach) -> Cúige Connachta (ginideach) muna bhfuil dul amú ar fad orm.

In Ulster it’s tigim, thigim or taraim (this one is used in Ros Goill).

In Mayo it's tigim.

The oldest form is tigim

Yup.

Connachta -> Cúige Chonnacht.

Is cosúil go raibh dul amú orm. Mea Culpa.