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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (March-April) » Archive through March 22, 2005 » No offense intended « Previous Next »

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Odriscoll
Member
Username: Odriscoll

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm reluctant to say anything because everyone on this site is so open and available for help but, I am at a very beginning level of learning the Irish language and I visit the site on a daily basis just to pick up any little hints and tips that I can find.

Lately I have found that the responses are becoming more and more "all-Irish" and therefore very difficult for me, as a pure beginner, to follow. I thought that was the reason there were two sections - one for Irish/English and the other for Irish only.

I do my best to sit with my dictionary and try to figure out some of the responses but, since many of the responses and/or comments are quite long am finding the exercise to be too frustrating and am visiting the site less often.

Anyway - certainly I don't want my single, inconsequentiual opinion to ruin it for the rest of you who are obviously much better versed than I so, if anyone could give me the URL of any other sites more geared to such a neophyte as myself I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you all so much for past instruction and assistance. You're all very generous of your time and expertise.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1109
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry, O Driscoll. I'm probably one of the culprits. I'm just too darn lazy to type everything twice, and the thoughts have been flowing in Irish, which is why I typed them in Irish. I put them on the bilingual side with the intent that people who could read my Irish but wouldn't feel competent to reply in Irish would feel free to respond in English.

I'd be surprised if you found a better site than this. I don't know of any.

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Paul_h
Member
Username: Paul_h

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't know of any better sites either, persevere, your Irish can only get better!!

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 157
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

O'Driscoll,

I have the same problem and have had that problem since becoming part of this motley crew some 3 years ago. All I can tell you is to hang in there. These things go in cycles. Right now there are a handful of "regulars" who are quite well versed in Irish and it is very easy for them to banter back and forth as gaeilge while the rest of us thumb through our dictionary and inevitably get caught in some idiomatic expression or some nuance of the future conditional indicative (if such a thing even exists). This isn't a bad thing, though. It's a frustrating but valuable aspect of this type of interaction. Never hesitate to ask for clarification. Most will give it as bearla easily enough.

Eventually, in a week or a month or a year, there'll be a handful of beginners like yourself who will begin to chime in more regularly. Oddly enough, you'll find yourself offering them advice and helping them with grammar and vocabulary questions. Simply by doing this you'll be suprised at how much you will learn. I can't tell you how many times someone else's question has caused me to dive into the books looking for an answer. One of the best ways to learn by teaching, or mentoring.

Muddle through what you can for now, and do it at your pace. Eventually you will begin to pick up a few words here and there. That will grow in time and and before you know it you'll be reading full sentences without the need of the dictionary. Then, one day, completely out of the blue and unexpectedly, you'll be reading whole paragraphs and getting the general message. It's a slow, laborious process but well worth it.

Despite all of its frustrations (ie; cantakerous, overly sensitive, hotheaded reactionaries like myself), this is still the best site on the web for learning Irish! Hang in there and feel free to post any question at all pertaining to Irish as bearla. All of us are, or have been, in your boat. Little by little, we'll get you across this linguistic ocean called Gaeilge!

Le meas,

James

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Odriscoll
Member
Username: Odriscoll

Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you all for your encouraging remarks. I'm certainly not willing to give up at this early stage but have discovered one VERY important thing while learning this language that I don't remember struggling with when I learned French:

I don't know my english!! What I mean is, while trying to be as modest as possible, I am considered to be much better than average in the correct use of english grammar, spelling, etc. however, somewhere in the dark recesses of my education, it seems I never "absorbed" the actual "labels" which would make it easier to decipher the alternate language's equivalents. For example, after all these years, I found myself scrambling because I didn't know what someone meant when they referred to the genitive versus the dative versus... you get the gist. I use them all every day, and use them correctly. I just must have slept through the classes where they taught you the actual NAMES of the various parts of speech, grammatical syntaxes, etc. Now - I'm scrambling to fill that void in English so I can better understand references to the tenses, syntaxes, transitive versus intransitive verbs, etc., etc. etc. ...And I thought I was a well-educated person!! Hah! Fooled me!

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 159
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Fear not mo chara. I have the same issue! I find I've learned more about english structure by studying Irish than I did through 12 years of public education and 2 years of University english!

Never hesitate to ask, though. Remember, the vast majority of these people will never, ever, ever actually meet you! Who cares how silly the question might seem?? Ask away!

Le meas,

James

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.75
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Remember, the vast majority of these people will never, ever, ever actually meet you!"
-James

Really? Are you all not in my head? I feel like I've spoken to everyone offline before!

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Larry
Member
Username: Larry

Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Odriscoll, a chara,

You're certainly not alone if you're struggling with those "labels".

I am in a similar category in that I didn't pay too much attention to my English when I was at school. Perhaps you could lay your hands on an inexpensive English grammar textbook which should help you to more fully understand what people are talking about when they refer to things such as vocative, genitive, dative etc etc etc.

Kay has produced an excellent site listing examples of usage etc..

Le meas,

Larry Ackerman

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James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 160
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

'dj@ks,

are you hearing those voices again? :)

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.220.49
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes James, I hear you. And people tell me the computer does not really talk.

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Chinita
Member
Username: Chinita

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara,

I have to say, this is a pretty good forum, and there aren't too many good forums on the web. I've found that with other forums, the translations and grammar insights seem to be wrong. They are given by learners of irish who believe they are giving you correct information. Unfortunately, that is not quite the case. They make simple grammar mistakes and I'm not quite sure I trust their translations. The members on Daltai forum are more knowledgeable in giving you correct information.

As for learning on the web, I like the BBC Giota Beag website. It is for a complete beginner with sound, so you can listen to the pronunciation while he explains the meanings. I found this website very useful for hearing pronunciation and learning the phrases. It does not have comprehensive grammar explanations, but it will get you started with basic phrases.

Ádh mór!

Christine

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Odriscoll raises several points that my Irish language group and I were discussing this past week, and agreeing with much of what he says. One of my fellow learners told me about Gaeigle-B which directs posters to post in Irish and English. Since I too sometimes find myself skipping over more lengthly Irish postings here, I often think this might be helpful. But, on the other hand, I think that I could be doing myself in by not trying to rely more on comprehending. I also think that an all English section (how very Anglocentric of me) would steer further away from the Irish language to broader Irish topics. Besides the very helpful and knowledgeable current posters, the archives to this discussion board are also a treasure trove of useful information and advice.

Daltaí Na Gaeigle - Buíochas Le Dia!

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Cailindoll
Member
Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, March 11, 2005 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think Irish is like the ocean. You can enjoy its refreshingly cool waters, just lilting up and down with the waves infinitely if you find the right spot, the right environment. In this site, just as in real conversations, it's frustrating when you understand less than half of what's being said, but it's still beneficial to listen in, to read through whatever you can. When you see a wave that's too big for you, you can try to tackle it, ride it in to shore, or you can simply duck your head under and wait for a smaller wave to tackle or wait until you're ready to take on the big ones. I'm still ducking under the genitive case waves, for example. I tried complaining about them, but all I got was a mouth full of salt water! With some speakers I feel like I'm right in the middle of the ocean, with others I feel I can't swim at all, and ought to to run right back to the baby pool where I belong. This site will challenge you more as it is than if it were only in English because you are in charge of what you choose to read, and how much of a challenge you want. But I understand your frustration and people may be more aware now that you've mentioned it. Ádh mór ort ODriscoll a chara!

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Jonas
Member
Username: Jonas

Post Number: 651
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 04:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde

"One of my fellow learners told me about Gaeigle-B which directs posters to post in Irish and English."

I'm a member of Gaeilge-B since 1999 and if memory serves me right, there is no rule on posting in English. On the list Gaeilge-A all posts have to be in Irish only. At Gaeilge-B we are normally asked to provide translatations, but the language is not specified. Some of us sometimes write our messages in Irish and then translate them into Swedish, Finnish, French, Serbian and so on. The point being to highlight that Irish, not English, is the official language on the list. :-)

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Seán a' Chaipín
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 81.136.36.72
Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus wrote:
"Sorry, O Driscoll. I'm probably one of the culprits. I'm just too darn lazy to type everything twice, and the thoughts have been flowing in Irish, which is why I typed them in Irish"


It's not so much your fault, Aonghus.

I blame Seosamh Mac Muirí (if that is his real name).

If he had his way, we'd all be speaking Irish by now... *scig*

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.162
Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 02:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ceapim nach na Meiriceánachaí anseo go h-an mhaith ar fad mar infheistíonn siad a lán t-am ag foghlaim gaeilge. Ní raibh siad an sochar go raibh ranganna i ngaeilge sa scoil.

I think that americans here are great for they're investing of a lot of time learning gaelic. They don't have the benifit of that which were the classes thru Irish in school.

"...never "absorbed" the actual "labels"
-Odriscoll

Tá tú ag caint faoi rangúí gramadúil. Don chuid is mó den am, níl foghlaimíonn na cainteoiraí dúchais, gaeilge nó béarla, na gramadach.

You are speaking about grammatical demarcations. Generally, native speakers don't learn about such, Irish nor English.

"...there aren't too many good forums on the web...and I'm not quite sure I trust their translations."
-Chinita

Daoine leisciúil atá acu. Ar ndóigh, tá a lán bullshiters ar a gréasáin. Tá an cothrom beaig anseo [calque], daoine líofa, daoine ag tosú foghlaim gaeilge, agus gach duine idir gach foirceann. A píosa h-eolas agus a lán mhian.

Lazy bastards, a lot of them. There is some balance here, at least, what with there been fluent, newbies, and all else between the horses nostrils. A little knowledge, and much more desire.

"I also think that an all English section [would be good](how very Anglocentric of me)".
-Mícheál

Cén fath? Mar atá sé do theanga dúchais, labhraíonn tú agus bíonn tú ag chumarsáid is fearr i mbéarla.

Been your native tongue, it is natural to want it (communication) in English; it is a question of fact and nessicity [sic], not identity.

"[this] site will challenge you more as it is than if it were only in English because you are in charge of what you choose to read, and how much of a challenge you want"
-Callindoll

Go dearfa. Tá an saothar maith atá sé.

Good practice.

"The point being to highlight that Irish, not English, is the official language on the list. :-)"
-Jonas

Na teanga oifigiúil ag 'Tír na Dhaltaí'.

Official langue of the 2005/2006 learning season.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1113
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

I blame Seosamh Mac Muirí (if that is his real name).

If he had his way, we'd all be speaking Irish by now... *scig*



I find it ironic that someone who uses a pen name questions the use of a real name by a real person.

http://www.ul.ie/~lcs/faculty.html#Gaeilge%20Section

Seosamh has explained his policy of only posting in Irish several times.

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Mícheál
Member
Username: Mícheál

Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 09:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Gabh mo leithscéal, mo chairde, ach nuair a bhí mé ag caint faoi "an all English section," shílim bhí mé ag rá bheadh sé go dona.

(Excuse me, my friends, but when I was talking about "an all English section," I thought I was saying it would be bad.)

Wow, that was hard for me, but fun. And I am certain I made mistakes, but practicing Irish is what to me is the primary purpose of Daltaí Na Gaeigle and especially this list. To paraphrase the point Jonas made, if this list did have an official language, it would be Irish.

My comment about being Anglocentric was my sense of humor, but dj@ks correctly reminded me that the English language too makes up much of my being.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh arís!

-Mícheál

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Sean a' Chaipín
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 217.45.211.12
Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

I put in the word *scig* at the end to indicate an attempt at humour.

I fear that awesome féasóg of yours is obscuring your view.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1118
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Maith go leor, a Shéain. Ach táim goillúnach faoi ainmneacha. 'Sí Aonghus Ó hAlmhain mo ainm, agus níl aon ainm eile agam - ach is minic a chuala "What's that in English" (leis an bhfoteideal "What's your real name).

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Seán a' Chaipín
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 83.104.38.8
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 04:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

'Sea, tuigim go maith. Is de bhrí sin a scríobh mé "más sin an fíorainm air"....



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