mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 18, 2005 » Teach Yourself Shelta « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

No, there's no book by the above title, yet.

Thanks to Odriscoll's posting a little while ago about the wikipedia site, I learned something about the Shelta language, which is the language spoken by the Travellers in Ireland and abroad. The language has its origins in Irish, but it has its own vocabulary. The wikipedia website also indicates that there are upwards of 86,000 people worldwide that speak the language.

Could the Shelta language be considered a dialect of the Irish language? If so, would this make the Shelta community a traveling Gaeltacht?

Just thought I'd start on thread on the subject and would appreciate input from other members - thanks!

Dáithí

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 138
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Not another dialect question!! Aaaarrrgh!!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Shelta is a moniker that is rarely used by Travellers among themselves. They call their tongue Gammon or Cant. You are right, there are said to be 80-100,000 Irish Travllers in N. America alone, perhaps more. There are Scottish Travellers as well. Who knows the real figures.
Some ITs in US and Canada speak Irish as well as Gammon/Cant. When they write Irish they write it phonetically.

As an IT friend from a large midwestern city said to me once. "We sit next to you at Mass and at PTA meetings. We hide in open sight."

In the US many IT families are middle and upper middle class! Not all, but more than you would suspect. There may even be ITs on Daltai/. They prefer to be dofheicthe and balbh. Some IT scholars believe their ancient tongue is descended from Be/arla na Filidh, the secret lost cant of the poets. There were many secret cants in Ireland: stone masons, circus and carny workers, malsters, gamblers, underworld, poets, etc. Certainly their teanga ru/nda has contributed much more than we know to Irish and American culture as a whole.

I have only one rule on Cant or Gammon. I remain balbh. Though if you are interested take a look at Traveller's Rest, a website sponsored by a man from NYC who is 1/2 IT. Traveller's Rest provides a redacted lexicon of several 1,000 words, based to some extent on MacAllister's work (sp?). Traveller's Rest doesn't give up any current cant. It ain't kosher. But you'll learn more than from non-IT so called experts. To really learn a little Cant, you need to befriend ITs and earn their trust. Like I said, you may already know some from this site. But they ain't givin' it up to buffers. Too many centuries of fuath in Ireland and America.

DC

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 157
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James wrote: >Not another dialect question!! Aaaarrrgh!!


Why?

I’ve already seen articles about the Shelta language. I don’t see any link between it and Irish except a couple of words. Some claim Shelta is a Celtic language. I don’t think it’s true. As far as I know, there’s almost no Celtic feature in Shelta.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 140
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, Lughaidh...I was attempting to be a bit humorous. We've had a rather lively debate regarding dialects, if you will recall.

Regarding Shelta and the Irish Travellers:

They don't have the greatest reputation in North America. Their rip-off construction and home repair scams are well documented and have been the subject of many prime-time documentary reports. I would call into question any attempt to legitimize their language or way of life.

Just across the NC/SC border is a town of so called "Irish Travellers". They live in large homes, marry within families in arranged marriages and shun any outsiders who pass through their town. The reputation is less than desirable.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daisy
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 12.75.241.65
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The arranged marriages are between young children 12, 13. I've seen tapes of the dances where they arrange meetings of these kids. Little girls about 7 and up are dressed up in clothes suitable for clubbing with full makeup. Remember last year's news item where the young mother was caught on security tape whaling the tar out of her daughter? Irish Travelers. As James said, not of great repute.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 141
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The "back story" on that tape is that the mother had been in the store attempting to "return" some clothes for a cash refund. The problem???....she had stolen the clothes from another store and was wanted in numerous other locations for the same activity.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.105
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Wanna buy a welder, boss?"

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 142
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh...and the kid was being beaten for busting mother's story. "Mommy, you didn't buy those clothes!!!"

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara a James,

If you're not intested in discussing dialects, does that mean the rest of us can't ask questions on the subject? There are postings of yours that aren't of any interest to me, but I would never complain or whine (aaarrrrgh?????) about them. In other words, you don't have to read all of the posts. I appreciate learning from the postings of members like Dancas1 and Lughaidh, and look forward to other members' postings on this and other subjects that I hope you don't have to complain about.

Also, I don't understand your stereotyping of the Irish Travellers. I think you can take any group of people in this world and find some members that aren't up to your standards.

Anyway, back to the subject. After starting this thread, I found out that Shelta's syntax is based on the English language, so I guess it's got one parent as Irish (vocabulary) and the other as English (syntax).

Thanks Dancas1 and Lughaidh for your insights into the Shelta language!

Dáithí

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 143
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK...tender feelings being cared for here....my comment about dialects and the ensuing "Arrghh" comment was an attempt at humor. As was stated, there have been some heated debates on the importance etc of dialects. It was a casual comment, not meant to offend....sorry.

Regarding the Irish Travellers...I think it is safe to say that they are certainly the latter and most probably not the former. They have a terrible reputation in this area. I don't think Shelta is recognized as a "language" per se any more than pig-latin is recognized as a "language." It seems to be an elaborate verbal code meant to confuse and deceive the uninitiated. The street thugs (aka "gangsta's) of the west coast of the US had a similar banter a few years ago. To hear it you would swear they were speaking another language. In reality, it was a corruption of english with endings such as "izzle" and "shizzle" added to words spoken backwards or otherwise altered. Shelta seems to be of a similar strain, albeit older and more elaborate.

If the IT's and Shelta is what blows sunshine and joy up your skirt, then great. Go for it. Have a ball. Post away. No harm, no foul. I just don't see it as Irish.

That doesn't mean it doesn't belong here and it doesn't mean I begrudge your interest. It's just that I'll probably be on the other side of the fence from you on this one.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 164
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 09:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Even for words, i don’t see many of them that look like Irish.

I don’t understand either the clichés u say about travellers: they can’t be all like that - in western Europe, many people have the same clichés on Gipsies and other non-irish travellers.

Some people have clichés on the Irish people: some say that they are all heavy drinkers, people who get angry quite easily, who play fiddle and speak loud, a strange kind of English (many american people think that Irish is just a funny kind of English). DO you think it’s true? I don’t think the clichés on travellers are true either, maybe some of them are as u said, by not all of them...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dan
Member
Username: Dan

Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Louie, you would have to thank Post traumatic Stress Syndrome for most of those stereotypes about the Irish.
But the IT's really do have a bad rep rown hawr! While in Rome I had a bunch of Romi (Gypsy) try to pick my pockets, in Paris it was the North Africans and Gypsies tryin' to steal anything that wasnt tied down, All stereotypes are based on a reality. Especially when that group is very secretive and clandestine, making a concerted effort to keep outsiders at bay, while at the same time having the viewpiont that those outsiders deserve to be taken advantage of due to the fact that they are infidels! yes I believe it is true .02$

(Message edited by dan on March 01, 2005)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 127
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The reputation of the IT is so bad in this part of the US that their antics are cited as the reason you should not open your door to strangers.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mack
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 12.75.191.244
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 07:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ever read about the workmen who just happen to have enough blacktop, vinyl flooring, bricks, cement, etc. left over from a job so that they can offer you a real good price on some renovation - they just happen to be driving by your home on their way home? ITs.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

I don't think Shelta is recognized as a "language" per se any more than pig-latin is recognized as a "language."



Here's the Wikipedia website that indicates Shelta is a language spoken by upwards of 86,000 people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelta

One Celtic expert claims that the Shelta language dates back to the 13th century.

quote:

OK...tender feelings being cared for here....



How about the feelings of other Daltaí members who may be Irish Travellers and how they might take this stereotyping of them? (See Dancas1's posting above for a different view of the Irish Travellers.) The remarks about the Irish Travellers stealing reminds of the song "Fields of Athenry," when people were thrown in jail and exiled for stealing food to feed their children.

Dáithí

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 145
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, and they agree to do the job "by the bucket". The next thing you know you've got 300 empty buckets sitting in your driveway for a job that should have taken 10 buckets! They do it with asphalt, paint.

The worst I heard was of a widow who they bilked out of nearly 20 grand for re-shingling her roof. They agreed to do it by the "square" or "bundle"...you guessed it, hundreds of bundles later this poor old lady had half a roof with out shingles. Kind of put her in a position where she couldn't say "no."

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mack
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 12.75.182.215
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Maybe you should give them your address,a Daithi. One neighbor of mine had his hous "waterproofed" by these itinerents. It may not have been watertight but it sure looked shiny bright. They used aluminum paint. Did Wikipedia cite who their Celtic expert was? There are lots of self-proclaimed experts in the subject {as in any other topic}

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

Did Wikipedia cite who their Celtic expert was?



Yes, the Celtic expert was Kuno Meyer. Seems Kuno Meyer was quite active in the early 1900's in supporting the Irish language studies in Ireland. Here's an interesting article from the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies on Kuno Meyer.

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/k/k3/hist2.html

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>Louie,

I'm not *Louie, I'm called Lughaidh in Irish and Loig in Breton.

>you would have to thank Post traumatic Stress Syndrome >for most of those stereotypes about the Irish.
>But the IT's really do have a bad rep rown hawr! While >in Rome I had a bunch of Romi (Gypsy) try to pick my >pockets, in Paris it was the North Africans and Gypsies >tryin' to steal anything that wasnt tied down,

You're not lucky, I was quite often in Paris, I've been studying there during 2 years and I've never had any problem with anybody.

>All stereotypes are based on a reality. Especially when >that group is very secretive and clandestine, making a >concerted effort to keep outsiders at bay, while at the >same time having the viewpiont that those outsiders >deserve to be taken advantage of due to the fact that >they are infidels! yes I believe it is true .02$

Some IT are dishonest, does it mean that they're all dishonest? When an IT steals you something, you remember because he's an IT. If it had been a non-IT man you would forget it, or at least you won't think that all men who've the same hair colour as him is a thief. If I go to your town and if someone steals me something, should I believe that everybody in your town are thieves?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 146
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Is wikipedia really a substantiated source that is accepted in academic circles? Seems I've read that it doesn't take much to get listed on that particular site.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 34
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's a quote from a police chief in South Carolina on the Traveller's work ethic:

"Back in South Carolina, even the police chief of North Augusta has kind words for the Travelers' work ethic. A Traveler crew painted Chief Lee Wetherington's roof and paved his driveway. Sure, he says, there are scam artists. But the scoundrels among the Travelers are about the same proportion as in society at large."

"They did good work," Wetherington said of the Travelers he hired. "I would trust Mikey Boy Sherlock with anything I owned."

The full article can be found at http://www.rickross.com/reference/irish_travelers/irish_travelers10.html. The article is also at Time Magazine, www.time.com, but requires a subscription.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 147
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hmm...two references to the "Honesty" and "Hard Work" of the IT's. One from thier lawyer...woooah....big suprise!

The other from the local Police Chief...hmmmm....let me see....do a good job for the local head of law enforcement....matter of fact...do it cheap too. Sounds like some pro-active damage control from here. Befriend the Police Chief, get on his good side and the next time you or your clan gets in a jam you've got a "reach out" you can call on.

Still not impressed. I know what I know from personal observation. Hell, there's always someone willing to defend a scoundrel. "He's not a bad sort...he's just misunderstood"....holds about as much water here as it does elsewhere.

Like I said...I respect your opinion and your right to persue it but I'm afraid you'll find me on the other side of this fence.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dan
Member
Username: Dan

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 01:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post



(Message edited by dan on March 03, 2005)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dan
Member
Username: Dan

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 01:11 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Whoa there, was trying to Americanize that one. But still when a singular group repeatedly takes advantage it is very east to form strong opinions. I wholeheartedly agree with James! as far as Paris being unluckey the same thing has happened to my cousins who reside in London when on holiday.. btw the Ireland trip is out I have decided on Tahiti and Hawaii, GRMA!
but yo yo check it dose homies- they be givin bad rep demselv no good peeps- jeez dey done been gone on beein all wack up on that crimmin s**t bustin game on all that...alway tryin to throw some bone to the man meke ,em think he got up on 'em an you know he bein stone col' played. now that how it is! padow!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1063
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 05:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Re wikipedia: My understanding is that anyone can edit an entry. So I would be cautious.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 148
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 08:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The Mafia isn't a group of Italians engaged in organized crime. Just look...they've got wives and kids. Some live in small houses some live in mansions...just like normal working stiffs. They have ties to the construction trades and sanitation...just like normal people. I mean, heck, I saw the lawyer who defended John Gotti on TV just last night. He said John was framed....a victim stereo-typing...I believe him. John was a stand up guy...even the people in his local community thought he was top notch! And his wife and kids...I've seen their TV show...just a normal Mom with a bunch of troubled kids. Y'know...just normal!!

Same logic...different crime organization.

The Mafia is to sanitation what the IT's are to home repair! The IT's just aren't as violent.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Make generality about a community from the bad characteristics of some of its people is called racism.

So let's go, now what do you think about Jews, Black people, Muslims, Native American people?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 66.152.218.225
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 149
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 09:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

You want to go down this road! OK...let's go!! Let me drag you through the muck of human existence we call reality, my friend.

Let's see...black people. The absolute BEST commander I've ever had was a black man. My best friend in High School? A black kid. He went to West Point, served in the military, married a German girl and now owns his own business in the northwest. The best company commander I've seen...bar none...another black man. I've conducted humanitarian outreach in Zimbabwe, Swaziland, Kenya, Ethiopia and Djibouti. Condoleeza Rice, Colon Powell and Clarence Thomas are three of the most impressive people I've seen in American Politics since Ronald Reagan.

The Jews...my sister is dating a Jew. That's my BABY sister. My ONLY sister. You think I'd sit still for this if I had a problem with the Jews?

Muslims...I spent 9 months last year in Djibouti, Africa delivering humanitarian aid to Muslims. Actually had one village elder tell me that we had done more for his village in the 3 months we'd been there than the FRENCH had done in the past 10 years. Oh, and 5 of the physician I work with??...Muslims.

Native Americans...I work in a hospital that has about a 70% Native American patient base. One of the best doctors I work with grew up not 20 miles from our hospital. He didn't have electricity in his house, nor did they have running water. He went to what was then an Indian college and then on to medical school. He is perhaps the best and most compassionate emergency medicine physician with whom I've ever had the pleasure of working. He's Native American AND he's a homosexual! My great grandmother was full Cherokee. I rode rodeo for two years with a Pottawatomee bull-rider out of Kansas. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of my soldiers to get into medical school...he was an Apache. Now he's a Doctor...who happens to be an Apache. So...I think that just about covers Native Americans!

Let me tell you a little bit about the word racist, my young and apparently sheltered scholar. I grew up in the segregated south. I've SEEN with my own eyes the bathrooms and water fountains labeled "Colored" and "White". I lived through the race riots. I've seen the Klan up close and personal. At the age of 4 my hometown was under curfew because of race riots, the Klan and a group called "The Wilminton Ten". So, be careful how you throw the word "Racist" around. Some of us are old enough to know what it really means and old enough to have seen it in full bloom, my friend.

This is the problem I have with your ilk. Guys like me are out there in the midst of humanity, willing to get our hands dirty, living it, breathing it and absorbing it first hand. While you academics sit in your classrooms, behind your desks, buried in your books and spout drivel like it emmanates from the mouth of the Holy Saints.

This discussion is about Shelta and the IT's. Just because I have a problem with someone's conduct doesn't mean that it's based on anything other than that...the conduct. If they happen to be black, pink, white or fuschia is absolutely SECONDARY. If their ethnic origin is Italian, Hungarian, Fijian or Antarctican is SECONDARY. (Here we go again with the secondary issues!) This is the same problem you had with the dialect discussion. You couldn't seem to seperate the need to learn the language from the obsession with which dialect. Now, you need to be able to separate the romantic notion of a misunderstood and opressed people from the actions and reality of that culture!

It's not the people I have a problem with my dear friend, it's the culture of deceipt and scams that I find reprehensible. Hence, my comment about the Mafia. It's not Italians I find offensive it's the culture of the Mafia. If an IT leaves the life of childhood marriages and itinerate work scams, then is he still an IT? Or is he just another working stiff with a certain amount of Irish heritage? He can still live in his closed community, he can still travel and do itinerate work (legitimately)...but, hasn't he then re-defined himself or at least taken steps to help re-define what it means to be an IT?

I would expect someone so apparently academically inclined as you are to be able to make these distinctions!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James
Member
Username: James

Post Number: 150
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2071456

http://www.rickross.com/reference/irish_travelers/irish_travelers6.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/757987/posts

For every 1 you post regarding opression and maltreatment, I can post 100 like these 3. But, all is not lost. This one addresses the "re-defining" of what it is to be an IT that I was talking about in my earlier post. If this direction continues, THEN you might get me over to your side.


http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/4380701.htm

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Caoimhín
Board Administrator
Username: Caoimhín

Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-1999


Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Polite and related to the Irish Language...

This discussion has moved off-topic and is being closed.

Caoimhín

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge