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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 28, 2005 » A question regarding Eclipsis « Previous Next »

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Psmc
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Username: Psmc

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

What is the guideline with respect to foreign words? For example is "Tá mé i mo chonaí i bPhiladelphia" correct or should it be "Tá mé i mo chonaí i bhPhiladelphia"? I think it should be the latter since we are really eclipsing the sound and not the letter. But I have seen the former as well. It gets very problematic wth the letter C, since there are several possible initial sounds.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 244
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

many languages do not alter foreign words..."tá mé i mo chonaí i Philadelphia"

the thing to keep in mind, if you're going to do it, is that you're not dealing with a "ph"...this is where i hate the 'h' ...you're dealing with a ?...if you set your browser character set to unicode that will display properly, a p with a dot above...it's an accented p, not a letter combination

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 135
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't know what is the rule in Standard Grammar. I think many native speakers use "in" before foreign names. Tá mé ’mo chónaí in Philadelphia.
Otherwise, maybe you can eclipse according to the sound: ph=f so it would be bhPhiladelphia (but it looks odd, but anyway it is not *i bPhiladelphia).

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 245
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

how would you properly eclipse a séimhiú'd P?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 137
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It’s not a lenited Ph, lenition is a Celtic feature and Philadelphia isn't a Celtic name, it comes from greek, and is the common way, in Latin writing, one transcribes the greek "phi". So you have to consider as an /f/ in pronounciation, no matter how it's written. Lenition is a pronounciation phenomenon, so when u eclipse "Philadelphia", you do as if you had a written , since it's the sound you pronounce.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine, a chara,

You can not eclipse a lenited p. You can eclipse and you can lenite, but you can not do both simultaneously. Luaghaidh showed that the ph in Phildelphia is pronounced as if it were spelled Fildelphia. As such it would be eclipsed by a bh, e.g., Tá conaí orm i bhFiledelphia. As I think you know, the phoneme p would be eclipsed by b. Did I ever tell you the way I remember what eclipses what?

In Old Irish, eclipsis was called nasalization because most of the time it was triggered by a nasal phoneme. For example, in Modern Irish the nasal sound na triggers eclipsis when it appears before a genitive plural noun. While it is a bit of a simplification, I think of eclipsis as making the inititial letter "closer to a nasal consonant," if possible. (Forgive me Jonas.)

Here is what I mean. All the vowels are eclipsed by a nasal phoneme, namely n.
a is eclipsed n → n-a
e is eclipsed by n → n-e
i is eclipsed by n → n-i
o is eclipsed by n → n-o
u is eclipsed by n → n-u
Becoming nasal is as "close to nasal" as you can get.

It is a little more complicated for consonants. Here are all the consonants that can be eclipsed and their relationship to the nasal phonemes. Nasals can not be any "closer to nasal" so they are not eclipsed.
.lips/teethpalatevelum
voiceless stopsptc
voiced stopsbdg
nasals................. m................n................ng
voiced fricativebh
voiceless fricativef
The voiced fricative, bh, eclipses but is not eclipsed. So the italicised entries in the above table are not eclipsed. The rows represent how the consonant is made, e.g., voiced consonants are made by creating a buzz in your throat while nasals are maded by creating a buzz in your nasal passages. The columns represent where the sound is made, e.g., p, b, m, bh, and f are all made at the lips and/or teeth.

Becoming "closer to nasal" means voiceless stops become voiced stops:
b eclipses p.........d eclipses t.........g eclipses c
bpdtgc
bdg
Becoming "closer to nasal" means voiced stops become nasal:
m eclipses b.........n eclipses d.........ng eclipses g
mbndng
mnng
Becoming "closer to nasal" means the voiceless fricative become voiced:
bh eclipses f
bhf
f
This is the way I remember what eclipses what. I hope it helps you too.

(Message edited by lúcas on February 25, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 119
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine, a chara,

I should be studying, but it just occured to me that Irish may have a thing for nasalization. I took a course in sean-nós singing in Gleann Colm Cille once and discovered that the Donegal style of sean-nós was very nasal.

In English singing, I was taught to hold the vowels for as long as possible. However, in Donegal, they seem to jump to the consonants as soon as possible, especially nasal consonants, and hold them. It gives the effect of a drone, like a set of uileann pipes.

Mar píobaire, céard a cheapann tú?

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Psmc
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Username: Psmc

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 12:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

My real question is this: When eclipsis occurs what is happening? Are we eclipsing a SOUND or LETTER? My thought is we are eclipsisng a SOUND. Since Irish is phonetic, the letters repersent the sound. But English is as far from being phonetic as a language can be. So if we are going to use eclipsis or lenition, then we should pay attention to the sound and not the letter.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

We 're eclipsing a sound of course. An Irish speaker who wouldn't know how to write would make these eclipses as well in speech.
In Old Irish, most of the time eclipses weren't written but we know they were said anyway. In Scottish Gaelic eclipses aren't really written but they are made in speech.

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Psmc
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Username: Psmc

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Lughaidh,

Go raibh maith agat. Thanks for the re-inforcement, I thought that was the case. Many people go by what the grammars tell them without thinking that they are actually dealing with sounds.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 123
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 10:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Psmc, a chara,

I am confused by your last comment. I thought it was obvious that eclipsis, and lenition for that matter, deals with the sounds of Irish. It was one of the first things I learnt from the tapes for Foclóir Póca and Lárchaúint don Ghaeilge. The table I gave above for eclipsis categorizes sounds, e.g., voiceless stops are a class of sounds, not categories of spellings.

A letter or letters in the alphabet is just a repesentation of the sound. The caighdean oifigiúl spelling tightly bounds the spelling to the sounds. The IPA is just another alphabet for spelling out phonetics. In the table above, I could have used the IPA eng, ŋ, to represent a velar nasal sound instead of the Roman ng. In either case, the letter(s) simply represents a sound. I can not deny that it is more pnonetically precise than the Irish use of the Roman alphabet, but it is still just an alphabet.

I do not understand how one can divorce the sounds from the letters. How can a grammar mislead someone to think the rules for eclipsis are just another set of spelling rules, like caol le caol is leathan le leathan? I would argue that even this rule is tied to the sounds of Irish, ach sin scéal eile. What grammars do this?

I understand Luaghaidh's position; learning Irish on the lap of native speaker is the only true path to fíorGhaeilge. I hear it all the time whenever anyone says "oh, that's just book Irish." To some extent, I agree with Luaghidh, and that is why I feel lucky to spend to spend 75 minutes per week with a native speaker. However, the rest of the time, all I have is my books. So, if you are simply knocking book Irish, that fine. Join the crowd. I will still rely on my grammars. But if you really see a distinction, please, explain it to me.

(Message edited by lúcas on February 27, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas



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