I know that this topic isn't to everyone's liking, so I'd like to ask that if you're not interested in the topic, then simply don't read any further.

Recent postings on "tá failte romhat" have been fascinating to me, especially in regard to this phrase replacing "bon appetit" in Donegal and the claim that the phrase "tá failte romhat" in response to "go raith maith agat" is nothing more than an "ugly Anglicism." Some of the postings on the phrase recently were in Irish, so I'll have some fun and learn at the same time while translating them into English. Thanks to all for supplying your thoughts on this phrase.

Here's another example - this time from a website in Connemara, which indicates that "tá failte romhat" is used for "you're welcome."

http://www.standun.com/location.htm

One question that I haven't been able to answer is why are there so many instances of "tá failte romhat" being used by apparently fluent users, and the lack of any alternate phrase by them if indeed "tá failte romhat" is invalid Irish?

I would like to research the origins of "tá failte romhat" in detail and would be very grateful if any member has any ideas. It seems like we can be fairly certain that the phrase goes back to at least the 1950's, but what about earlier? Is it possible the phrase has an origin independent of English? If so, are there any earlier books, such as Dineen's or other dictionaries that might contain information?

Le meas,

Dáithí

it isn't "invalid" in the sense that you will be easily understood when using it. the debate here falls along the lines of the pedigree of the phrase, as there are those who prefer to stick to a traditional irish phrase over one that was imported from english.

on the one hand, responding with "welcome" to "thank you" seems to be an english oddity (translate other languages' versions and see that none contain their concept of "welcome"), and so many feel a likelyhood that it was brought into the language through contact with the english-others saying there is no direct evidence for that and it didn't have to be that way.

in the end, the point is moot...it is used most frequently and by native speakers and isn't going anywhere, so usage is a personal preference.

> translate other languages' versions and see that none contain their concept of "welcome"

The Spanish response translates as, "it's nothing" ("de nada"). Pretty informal.

But then if you really wanted to say "Thank you" you would say "Buiochas duit"

dearg - i meant nothing of formality...every other language i've seen either uses "think nothing of it" (de nada, niet te danken, etc) or a wellwishing to the thanker, but the notion of using "welcome" (wilkommen, bienvenue, etc) seems to be an english thing, which is what led some to feel it had been adopted into irish that way.

quote:

as there are those who prefer to stick to a traditional irish phrase over one that was imported from english.

Although there are also those who would make the case that it is not proven that the phrase came from English to Irish, rather than the other way.

But I think Antaine has stated the case quite clearly.

Just one thing should be pointed out:

Irish has many ways to say "you're welcome" as an answer to "thank you". And older speakers didn't use it before they learn English, I think. Have a look at Dinneen's dictionary at "fáilte" and you won't find any mention of "you're welcome" as an answer to "thank u". Nor in other old dictionaries (dictionaries that was made at a time in which there still were many Irish speakers with no English, so who woudln't have been influenced by it).

English is the only language on earth, I think (with Welsh, that has been influenced by English, obviously), that uses the same expression to welcome someone in your house and as an answer to "thank you". So...

Many languages that are now in contact with English use a translation of "you 're welcome" as an answer to "thank you", though they didn't do it before. Examples: Québec French, Irish, Welsh.

That is well put, Lughaidh.

And much better than what you were saying before, which is that a common phrase used almost everywhere in Ireland was simply "an ugly anglism".

However, in An Béal Beo (published 1936), I found something very close to (but not identical) "tá failte romhat" as an answer to "go raibh maith agat" - it was a long phrase, where part of it was "agus fáilte"


Fundamentally I agree that it would be better to have the full riches of the language available, but I think it would be a mistake to tell learners that a phrase they will encounter often is "wrong" in some way.

And of course "fáilte" didn't originally mean "welcome" but "joy". You wished or promised someone joy upon their arrival. But that was a long time ago.

And of course "fáilte" didn't originally mean "welcome" but "joy". You wished or promised someone joy upon their arrival. But that was a long time ago.

Or is it "joy is before you" (tá fáilte romhat)? Perhaps a shortening of tá fáilte agam romhat. Should this be the case, an appropriate English version would be:

"I rejoice before you." With this, I get a picture of the host dancing joyously at the approach of a visitor. That leaves something of a stretch to come up with saying you're welcome to thank you, but I suppose it would make sense to say "I'm happy doing the thing for which you're grateful."

I think I just hurt my brain, and I can't be sure that this makes sense. Feedback?

Of course, the real point is that no one says "you're welcome" anymore in English anyway. :-)

Listen to an interview on the radio. At the end, the host says, "Thank you." And the guest? They almost universally reply, "Thank you" or "Thanks for having me."

No "you're welcome"s found here anymore.

> And of course "fáilte" didn't originally mean "welcome" but "joy".

That's interesting. In English, "silly" originally meant crazy, not laughable or ridiculous. Words change, languages change. Heck, just in the past 40 years, "hopefully" has changed its meaning and "they/them/their" are quickly replacing "he or she/him or her/his or her".

Not to mention "advise". It used to mean to supply some-one with information so that it may help them and guide them... but now it simply means to "inform", eg.

He advised me not to go back there alone...

The client advised us that delivery would be arranged in the coming days.

i think if you look at counting you will see examples of where irish uses older european concepts such as three score and ten etc. in modern english this would be seventy. if you look at french you find a similar system (im not sure about this as i cant remember any of my french!!!!). anyway what im trying to say is that all languages pollute each other. english is a bastard language a mix of anglo-saxon (type of old german), french, norse, danish and a few bits of irish as well probably a dozen other languages. so what is "pure" is probably a bit pointless unless you want to "pure" speak proto-indo european. Its my opinion that failte romhat is ok because i hear it in the gaeltacht, in the paper and on rng. so from all modern sources its the accepted standard. if you wish to use very convoluted phraseology its perfectly fine but you mighnt find anyone to talk to.

The term "pure" is relative... let's no forget!

The posts above have been very enjoyable to read. And it looks like the date of "tá failte romhat" or a variation of it, making its first appearance has been pushed back to 1936 - go raith mile maith agat a Aonghus!

(Go ahead Aonghus - make my day and tell me "tá failte romhat) :)

I understand Lughaidh's point about many different ways to say "you're welcome" in Irish, and Dearg makes a good observation that other phrases are replacing "you're welcome," although I still hear "you're welcome" in English (and use it myself from time to time).

Just an interesting side note - the phrase in English for welcoming someone into your house is slightly different than responding to thank you. That is, we usually say "welcome" for coming into the house and "you're welcome" in response to thank you. The first almost seems like a polite order as in "Come on in" where as the response to "thank you" is a declarative statement. Any thoughts or comments?

Also interesting, at least I think is that "you are welcome" doesn't follow the standard rules of English. If it did, wouldn't it be "you are welcomed?"

Since I'm still a beginner, I really enjoy this opportunity to begin to understand the idioms in Irish and when and where to use (and not use) them. I appreciate all the input on this seemingly innocuous phrase "tá failte romhat" and would like to ask another question along the same line of Anglicisms entering Irish. Are there other phrases that are considered Anglicisms, that aren't originally Irish and may be considered invalid by purists? I think I read in a previous post that tog é bog é is another Anglicism - is that true?

I would like to put together a table for my own use of idioms and phrases, so if you know of other phrases that fall into the "tá failte romhat" category I would like to hear about them. This table will help me to understand the different responses that I should use firstly when talking with Irish speakers from different areas of Ireland and secondly, and independent of the first, when talking with folks who perceive certain phrases to be Anglicisms.

Le meas,

Dáithí

I've not talked about "purity" of the language, which is a point of view that's most of the time related to racism or thoughts like that.
The danger is when a language borrows all its idioms from another - that happens to language that are going to die. English borrows words from many languages, but its idioms are really English, there's an English-language way of thinking and expressing. But when a language is spoken and taught mostly by non-native speakers (as Irish), then it can be dangerous because most non-native speakers unconsciously use sentences that are a copy of their mothertongue's pattern. And then the specific features of the language and its way of expression are going to disappear.


>i think if you look at counting you will see examples of where irish uses older european concepts such as three score and ten etc. in modern english this would be seventy. if you look at french you find a similar system (im not sure about this as i cant remember any of my french!!!!).

70 = soixante-dix, which is "sixty-ten". The way of counting on 20-basis is specific to Celtic languages and language that have been influenced by them (French has been influenced by Gaulish in that case). In French you can see that in the numbers 80 and 90, quatre-vingts and quatre-vingt-dix (four-twenties and four-twenties-ten).

>anyway what im trying to say is that all languages pollute each other.

Maybe you should avoid the term "pollute"... and use "influence" instead

>english is a bastard language a mix of anglo-saxon (type of old german), french, norse, danish and a few bits of irish as well probably a dozen other languages.

Mostly French: 2/3 of English vocabulary comes from French or Latin... (but the meanings of these words often have changed)

>so what is "pure" is probably a bit pointless unless you want to "pure" speak proto-indo european.

and proto-indo-european wasn't "pure" compared to what was spoken before, etc ;-)

>Its my opinion that failte romhat is ok because i hear it in the gaeltacht, in the paper

papers are not reliable, they can have been written by anybody, and maybe not by native speakers...

>and on rng. so from all modern sources its the accepted standard. if you wish to use very convoluted phraseology its perfectly fine but you mighnt find anyone to talk to.


Well, if you only use one Anglicism it's ok, but the problem is, that many learners make much more anglicisms than that. For example, "tabhairt suas" for "to give up" > anglicism (in Irish, tabhairt suas would be giving something to someone who's above you, on stairs etc); "amharc i ndiaidh" for "to look after" > anglicism, etc, there are loads like that. Of course the learners who use these phrases aren't aware of that. I notice them immediately because I'm not a native speaker of English, so for me, saying "give up" isn't natural, for me it's just an English idiom, and when i hear the same idiom in standard english and in irish i immediately know an anglicism ;) .

Borrowing words is ok, but borrowing to many idioms is dangerous for the language's future.

Or is it "joy is before you" (tá fáilte romhat)? Perhaps a shortening of tá fáilte agam romhat. Should this be the case, an appropriate English version would be:

"I rejoice before you." With this, I get a picture of the host dancing joyously at the approach of a visitor. That leaves something of a stretch to come up with saying you're welcome to thank you, but I suppose it would make sense to say "I'm happy doing the thing for which you're grateful."

Still hoping for some feedback regarding the above. Separated as I am from the Gaeltacht and other sources of immersion, I am prone to devise my own methods of comprehending and remembering things which may or may not be correct.

An gceapann sibh gur Béarlachas na habairtí a leanas?

Ná habair é.
Ná tracht air.
Ní fiú tracht air.

Nach é cor cainte Ghaeilge an abairt thíos?

Níl a bhuíochas ort.

Is fearr liom an freagra seo ar an abairt "tá fáilte romhat."

A Lucas,

I won't know if that's for me until I get back to my books and can sort it out. As Bearla?

A Phádraig, a chara,

O.K. Do you think the following sentences are Anglicisms?

Ná habair é.	Don't mention it.
Ná tracht air.	Don't mention it.
Ní fiú tracht air.	It is not worth mentioning.

Isn't the phrase below an Irish idiom?

Níl a bhuíochas ort. It is not worth mentioning.

I prefer this response to "tá fáilte romhat."

(Message edited by lúcas on February 24, 2005)

I think "ná tracht air" is wrong!

I don't know about the others.

I tend to agree with Lughaidh on Anglicisms; where we differ is that I think eventually some phrases are part of the language, as "tá failte romhat" is because it is almost universally used in Ireland, including in the Gaeltacht.
And has been going back 70 years or so, at least.

For the record
"éirí as" is how I say "give up"
and I would "tabhair aire do" rather than "amharc i ndiadh".

I don't say "tá sé suas duit" when I means "it's up to you" - I say "fútsa atá sé".

My source for being so sure about "tá failte romhat" is Cormac Ó Cadhlaigh, MA (1884–1960)(who wrote many other books on Irish), and I am confident found the phrase in the Gaeltacht when there were still monoglot speakers.

Dineen has "rud gur fiú é trácht air", a thing worth referring to - so I'd say "Ní fiú trácht air" is idiomatic (and it is common).

I see ó Donaill has "ná trácht air" and "ní fiú trácht air"

But he gives "You don't say" as the meaning of "Ná habair é"; that I feel comfortable with. And it is a very different meaning to "Don't mention it" (which is really "You need not mention it")

If it were translated directly, wouldn't "Ná habair é" mean "do not say it?" as in an order? If so, I could make (mistakenly?) the logical leap that "do not say it" and "don't mention it" are the same thing, or at the very least, are very close in meaning?

I thought the phrase "you don't say" is used when we respond to a statement that someone has just made and we're puzzled or surprised by what was just said. In other words, "you don't say" is a declarative statement with the word order as usually found in English. I don't see how "ná habair é", which is an imperative, could be taken as a declarative statement like "you don't say." I would think that "you don't say" in Irish would be "ní dheirreann tú é" or something like that.

I don't mean to contradict a recognized authority as o Donaill but would appreciate any clarification and correction to my atempt at understanding "ná habair é."

A Lúcas, go raith maith agat for including the second fada in "tá fáilte romhat." It's re-assuring to know that even though "tá fáilte romhat" isn't on your favorites list, you still have the fine eye for detail. :)

Since Cormac Ó Cadhlaigh indicates the phrase "tá fáilte romhat" as being used in Connemara many years ago, I was wondering was there any other phrase being used as a response to "thank you" that fluent speakers were using back then? In the original "tá fáilte romhat" thread we had going a some days ago, a member mentioned that "fochen" was a previous form to be used in response to "go raith maith agat." Perhaps then, the answer to how long "tá fáilte romhat" has been in use, at least in Connemara, is to find out what was used previously and when it was phased out.


Dáithí

Níl a bhuíochas ort

Just a reminder of how easily something can be misunderstood -- when I saw this phrase in Lucas' earlier post, I cursorily translated it as "no thanks to you!" Then I filled my afternoon wondering, "now what did I do?"

Fo Chen is old Irish. (Earlier than 12 Century, as far as I know).

Maidir le "Ná habair é" - the way I have heard it used is precisely as "You don't say" - i.e. I find what you are saying incredible.

And none of the phrases Lúcás mentioned carries the connotation "you need not mention it" for me.

Ná trácht air is probably closest to that meaning.

I'd say something like "go bréa" or "ná bac" or something like that.

I think aonghus is correct in what he says about

For the record
"éirí as" is how I say "give up"
and I would "tabhair aire do" rather than "amharc i ndiadh".

These are the phrases i have commonly heard spoken on RnG by native speakers.

Im not sure wheter Lughaidh is agreeing with me or not, talk about a hurler on the ditch. But I liked his explaination of french counting though. by the way are you cuchulainn's father?

I know was on the side of using ta failte romhat, but now that i think of it,its used a lot by aer lingus stewardess's and bord failte types so what were the alternatives again?

Daithí

"Ná habair" is indeed imperative.

But idioms need not follow the normal rules of grammar. That is what makes them hard for a learner!

---

More on counting: the following are all still in common use in Irish: (multiples of twenty used particularly when giving ages)

20 - scór - fiche
40 - dhá scór - daichead (i.e. dhá fhichead)
60 - trí scór - trí fhichead - seasca
80 - ceithre scór - ceithre fichead - ochtó

compare with vingt and quatre vingt in french.
(Or "Three score years ago" in Lincoln's english for that matter).

Thanks Aonghus. I had a sneaky suspicion something idiomatic was going on, but I thought I would describe it from a poor learner's (moi) veiwpoint and I'm glad you cleared up my confusion.

Wow! This thread is getting very interesting! For a beginner like me, it's great to get all this input on idioms and their usuage. Thanks everyone!

Dáithí

>I tend to agree with Lughaidh on Anglicisms; where we differ is that I think eventually some phrases are part of the language, as "tá failte romhat" is because it is almost universally used in Ireland, including in the Gaeltacht.
>And has been going back 70 years or so, at least.

Yes. What i wanted to say as well, is that there are sentences that come into the language by learners who don't know how to say in Irish so they use a calque from English. And since native speakers (they all know english) understand them, they may use it after, and the expression may spread after. But I think it's not a positive thing that the Irish language only changes because of the learners' mistakes...


>For the record
>"éirí as" is how I say "give up"
and I would "tabhair aire do" rather than "amharc i ndiadh".

I'd say the same ones. Thigim leat an iarraidh seo, a Aonghais!

>I don't say "tá sé suas duit"

Oh my God! I had never heard that before. Tá eagla orm go mbodhróchaí mo chluasa dá gcluinfinn é.


About "níl a bhuíochas ort", it IS an Irish idiom. You know them because when you translate it literally to English, it doesn't mean anything. Here: "there isn't its thanks on you". I even don't understand why one says that as an answer to "thank you", what it really means in the first place. Is it something like "níl ort buíochas a ghabháil liom as" ?
The way I know real Irish idioms is: I know all the words of the sentence but I still don't understand its meaning. I think it's a feature of Gaelic languages (I've never come across such things in other languages, even non-Indo-European ones).

Níl a bhuíochas ort - you do not owe thanks for it

Tá X agam ort - you owe me X; That is where this idiom comes from.

quote:

But I think it's not a positive thing that the Irish language only changes because of the learners' mistakes...

I don't think that's the full picture. There are people who are aware of the issues, and try hard to come up with genuine Irish terms for new concepts - drawing on other languages and on Old and Middle Irish resources.

The problem is how to spread these new words - this is where the lack of a good press is holding us back.

But the work is going on.

The internet should help - there is http://www.acmhainn.ie

And Fiontar in DCU is working on making the work of An Coiste Tearmaíochta available as an online database. They have a two year time scale for the project.

Another interesting line is the Aimsir Óg series of pamphlets from Coiscéim, which deal with contempary issues.

and so on...

GRMA a Aonghus agus a Luaghaidh.

The idiom above with the pair prepositional pronouns reminds me of another idiom I got from my teacher. I asked him how to say "trust me." He replied,

Bíodh muinín agat asam,

which literally means

"let trust be at you out of me."

This seems to meet Luaghaidh's criteria of being incomprehensible word for word. It also fits the possession idiom Aonghus refers to

Tá X agam ...,

with the the substantive verb being in the third person imperative. Adding ort implies the obligation is on you to make sure I have X. In this case it is a variation of the idiom

Tá muinín (iontaoibh) agam as.
I trust him.

It is similar to the tag line one sees in the Gaeltacht

Bíodh Guinness agat.
Have a Guinness.

So much idiom to learn and so little time.

quote:

there are sentences that come into the language by learners who don't know how to say in Irish so they use a calque from English. And since native speakers (they all know english) understand them, they may use it after, and the expression may spread after.

So that's how phrases like "tá fáilte romhat," purportedly of English origin, enter the Irish language - by learners influencing the native speakers? I would never have guessed it! I would think that since the native speakers as mentioned in the quote above, 'all know english,' they would be tempted on their own to create English-like phrases.

As a learner myself, I may have to re-think this whole TFR (tá fáilte romhat) stuff. But maybe not, since the damage by learners has already been done, and almost everybody in Ireland uses TFR anyway.

quote:

But I think it's not a positive thing that the Irish language only changes because of the learners' mistakes...

So, if I understand this quote correctly, the only reason the Irish language changes is because of learners' mistakes? Wow! Now I'm really amazed at the effect learners have. I would have thought that whether one considers a period of time over centuries, or just the recent past, that the Irish language has changed because of a multitude of reasons. Aren't there any other reasons the Irish language has changed beside learners' mistakes?

Dáithí

>So that's how phrases like "tá fáilte romhat," purportedly of English origin, enter the Irish language - by learners influencing the native speakers? I would never have guessed it! I would think that since the native speakers as mentioned in the quote above, 'all know english,' they would be tempted on their own to create English-like phrases.

I have never written such thing, that’s just how u understood my sentence. I meant that learners’ Irish can be one of the factors that influence Irish. Not the only one.
Native speakers know English, but if they know the Irish way to say something, I think they won’t need to create an English-like phrase, they’ll just use the Irish sentence they know. On the contrary, their Irish (especially if they use more Irish than English in their everyday life) would influence their English. Most of the time, the mothertongue influences the languages you’ve learnt after.

>quote:But I think it's not a positive thing that the Irish language only changes because of the learners' mistakes...

>So, if I understand this quote correctly, the only reason the Irish language changes is because of learners' mistakes?

That’s again your own interpretation, but I didn’t mean that. I meant that learners’ mistakes are one of the factors that could make the Irish language change. The other main one is phenomena in the language of the native speakers: the simplifications that happen in their speech etc. This one is the "normal" evolution.


>Wow! Now I'm really amazed at the effect learners have.

They have effect because many of them go to the Gaeltacht for summer courses etc, native speakers sometimes read Irish newspapers that aren’t always written by native speakers (so there can be mistakes or Anglicisms), same thing for television, radio etc. Many journalists aren’t native speakers, and native speakers read/listen to them, and then, they can be influenced by non-native Irish. For example, if English had never been spoken in Ireland, you would never have heard things like "amharc i ndiaidh" for "to look after". Never ever. And i’m sure that this expression doesn’t come from a native speaker’s innovation, but from a native English speaker who has learned Irish.

I think it should be pointed out that a lot of work in Irish is being done outside the Gaeltachtaí by people who, like myself, were brought up speaking Irish, sometimes with one or both parents from the Gaeltacht, sometimes not.

I think Lughaidh's attitude on Gaeltacht speaker versus other speakers of Irish is very black and white - the truth has many more shades of grey.

In my experience speakers from outside the Gaeltacht are more sensitive to the influence of English, and more likely to try to make sure that they avoid calques.

There is the story told of the leinster Irish speakers travelling in a Conamara man's car.

The car stops.
One Leinster speaker says to the other "Ceapaim gur theip ar an cadhnra". One Conamara man looks at the other, who translates for him - "Tá an battery banjaxáilte"

Does it mean that these learners know more words and idioms than these native speakers ? No.

A native speaker who 's been brought up through Irish and who's been speaking Irish all his life, everyday, with other native speakers knows more than any learner. My teachers (even of other languages) tell me that they hear new words or idioms everytime they go to the place where the language is spoken by natives. Learners or neo-nativespeakers' Irish always has a limit somewhere. Gaeltacht Irish doesn't have.
Seo mo bharúil agus bheirim fá deara é achan uair a labhraim le cainteoir dúchais Briotáinise nó Gaeilge, mar shampla.

Ní hin a bhí a rá agam. Bhí mé ag rá go seachnaíonn roinnt cainteoirí ón nGalltacht Béarlachas ar bhealach nach seachnaíonn roinnt cainteoirí ón nGaeltacht.

Agus go bhfuil an scéal níos cásta na mar a chuireann do theachtaireachtaí in iúl.

Braitheann foclóir duine ar a thaithí agus a léitheoireacht.
Tá réimse focail agatsa sa Bhéarla, nach bhfuil agamsa cé go bhfuil Béarla (chomh maith le Gaeilge) ón gcliabhán agam.
Baineann an réimse sin le do ghairm.

Cinnte, beidh réimse níos leithne le fáil i bpobal Gaeltachta ná i bpobal Galltachta - ní hin le rá nach mbeadh réimse níos leithne ag cainteoir airithe ón nGalltacht le cainteoir airithe ón nGaeltacht.

(Message edited by aonghus on February 26, 2005)