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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 28, 2005 » In 1092 our leaders gave Ireland to the Pope! « Previous Next »

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Seán a' Chaipín
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Posted From: 217.45.211.12
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And the Pope gave it to Henry II of England.

They never told us this at school. Does anyone know if this is true? I got this from Keating's Foras Feasa ar Éirinn:

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100054/text095.html

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 924
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

They did tell me!

There were various crises in Church and Poiltics in Ireland; but the Church had been sucessfully reformed long before 1169.

Most countries in Europe saw the pope as at least a source of authority.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 216
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, it is true, at least as far as I've ever known, but that doesn't mean that isn't invalidated five hundred years later when the british monarchy was excommuniated for...shenanigans...

much like that there was a dispute between the english and Irish churches centuries before that, and the dispute was settled by Rome. The Pope agreed with the english church authorities in that instance, and the Irish churches assented. There are those in the english church today that hold that up as validation of england's religious authority over Ireland, when in reality it was an example of both Ireland's churches and england's churches ceding authority to the Pope...they kinda leave that part out...

and here my ability to be diplomatic is at an end and so I will close my mouth and go downstairs to make reeds for my pipes...

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.220
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And if we were Hindus we could ask:

"Is there karma for Irish leadership, temporal and spiritual, to turn on the populas and sell the nation out to foreign elements?" and: "...we must have been bastards to the English to derserve this..."

:)

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danm1
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Posted From: 216.160.120.67
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Not bastards but good Catholics that did as we were told and then sold out by A pope to to the english and they ALL thought we were less than they and it brings to the fact that this is how we really lost our Irish! .05$ not domination but by cultural bullying gavaltz iz mir!

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.237
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Not bastards but good Catholics that did as we were told and then sold out by A pope to the English..."
-danm1

I did not mean Medieval Irish people were, only that within the whole gamut of eastern belief systems that utilise notions of karma, groups and people individually can be seen to be affected/effected by karma, so the joke alluded to some prehistoric nation corresponding to Ireland been very harsh on the ancestors or souls of Britain, then finding recompense in invasion and loss of culture as the 'wheel of karma' turned.

I guess most people here would be Christian so it might not be so immediately gettable. I also think America, unlike Britain, has not got so many Hindus, so reincarnation and such lark is very dimly known about, unless of course in Californian and New Age circles.

Sorry to take the thread off course.

The TG4 próg 'Craiceann' about Irish sexual history, had Dermot Mac Murrough/ Diarmuid 'ac Murchadha send a soldier to rape the vestal virgin/Abbess/Bishopess (anyone who saw it can correct me) at Cill Daire (Kildare today) in order to sully her as an excuse to say the Celtic Church was corrupt and needed 'fixing'. The programme seemed to say the Church here had been successfully 'raped' and undercut prior to Strongbow and chaps arrived.

Its so hard to know as politics is human and its ancient. The machinations of leaders can have consequences they don’t appreciate at the time. Besides, I doubt if there is sufficient record to tell what really occurred in detail. Apparently Tiernan O' Rourke, the once leader of my own county, went to put manners on Diarmuid on the Ard Rí's (Rodric O' Connor) asking, but went too far, killing most livestock in Leinster, and precipitating famine. This cut down Dermot’s choices no doubt and gave him another reason to leave Ireland.

The tale of Dermot and Rodric of Connught is another story in itself. If any seanachaí want to step up to the plate…

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Dean
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Posted From: 12.76.15.7
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If you don't think we have enough Hindus here just stop at any gas station or 7-11.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 217
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I got it.

And yeas, we have more of everybody than anybody else!

Vestal virgins were those dedicated to the goddesss Vesta at the Temple of Vesta in ancient times...every day they had to be checked to see if they were still a virgin, and if they failed the test they were buried alive.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 113
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Nach bhfuil mé dul amú, I think that the Pope Urbanus II was the only English pope ever to sit in the chair of St. Peter?

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 218
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

no, Adrian I (Adrainus) was...he was the one that "entrusted" Ireland to Henry II (big surprise there)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 926
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 04:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The point about raping the abbess was that she could not hold the post unless she was a virgin.

Nothing to do with the Celtic vs Roman Church, since that argument was long over. More to do with getting his own woman in charge of a rich convent.

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Breacban
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Username: Breacban

Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 05:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

nil moran hindus timpeall anseo ach do biodh ceann amadán amhain linn.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí
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Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 06:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dermot Mac Murrough/ Diarmuid 'ac Murchadha send ....
... Tiernan O' Rourke, ....

.... Rodric O' Connor .....

B'fhearr liom a 'dj@ks go ndéanfá machnamh ar na leaganacha seo. Déarfainn go n-aontóidh tú liom gurbh é Ruaidhrí Ó Conchobhair ainm ceart an Ard-Rí, i nGaeilge na linne seo, gurbh é Tighearnán 'Caoch' Ó Ruairc ainm ceart Rí na Bréifne agus mar sin de. Is é sin, gur cheart dúinne droim láimhe a thabhairt do na leaganacha áiféise a reictear chomh minic sin i leabhair 'staire' an Bhéarla ar na saolta seo is go bhfuil siad ag gabháil i bhfeidhm ar mhuintir na Gaeilge féin nuair a scríobhaid sa teanga eile sin, an Béarla. Tá an caitheamh ceart ionat féin, tá mé cinnte, mar feicim 'Diarmuid' á scríobh agat sa phost thuas.

Chuala mé stócach treoraí ag insint don slua i gcaisleán Mhuintir Airt na Cille Móire, Co. Liatroma 'lá oidhreachta' bliain amháin, gurbh é 'Bryn na Murtak' fear an chaisleáin sa 16ú aois.
Brian na Múrtha Ó Ruairc, a dúnmharaíodh ag Tyburn a bhí i gceist. Is é is lú is gann dúinn a ainm ceart a thabhairt ar an duine bocht, lá oidhreachta nó eile.

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Pangur_ban
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Username: Pangur_ban

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

As one who is only one quarter Irish, maybe I'm sticking my nose in where I'm not wanted. However, you've been speaking of Eastern religions and Karma. Maybe the Karma came from deserting the old religion and spirituality of the Land. Some of it survived within Christianity, but didn't stop the troubles that came with the "implant" of new beliefs.

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.159
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tighearnán 'Caoch' Ó Ruairc,

Ruaidhrí Ó Conchobhair,

Brian na Múrtha Ó Ruairc...

A Sheosamh,
yes I agree. These people had names, they were not animals, but cultured creatures, who should not just be given labels, as if any name would do, as one might do a herd or group; 'sheep', 'penguins' 'birds', but humans who, even if their lives are long past, deserve respect and should be honoured as ancestors, to many people living today, and perhaps many on this list, thru direct or indirect blood lines.

They stood up for their culture, and their people, in hard times and in circumstances few of us may ever experience in this temporal domain. One might say that symbolically, they stood for honour, and Diarmuid for dishonour, even perhaps if they would not see it so poetically. Unfortunately, they became prisoners of the politics and power of Rome, Spain and London. From their experience one can say trusting Empires and outside forces is illusion only, as the Kurds and Shi'its found out in post Gulf War Iraq 1991.

They spoke Irish, despite what revisionists in faceless ‘think tanks’ (like the so called Reform movement) say, and in that Gaelic form their names should be remembered -and spoken.

http://www.tumalo.com/orourke.htm
http://www.trainweb.org/i3/lewis_let.htm
http://irelandsown.net/9years.html

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.159
Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"the Karma came from deserting the old religion and spirituality of the Land...troubles that came with the 'implant' of new beliefs"
-Pangur Ban

An interesting idea, that thought and karma are linked. Are you saying a culture can accrue karma by changing beliefs? or is it what then occurs physically with the new mind set (kill more, take more etc) that counts?
Some forms of karmic notions seem to be of a 'balance sheet' nature, A hurts B, B is now owed, B later balances the scale by money, or hurtingback etc. Others seem more based on judgement of others, as in 'they deserve it' or in India, used to control whole lower castes of 100's of millions by inculcating horse shit into them about coming back as a rat if they don't keep some arbitrary rules, tho today the upper castes use economic means and information technology to meld together a sort of 'pan-Indian supercaste' just when it looked like they were losing ground to modernity, at least relative to the power they once held.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí
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Posted From: 193.1.100.104
Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 06:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Bhí a fhios agam go raibh do chroí is do chloigeann san áit cheart a dj@ks, a chara. Thug tú an-ráiteas ansin thuas, bail ó Dhia ort, ar iompar ceart ainm an duine agus ar cheart na staire.
Thugas taitneamh don tríú suíomh de chuid 'Irelands Own', thar an dá shuíomh roimhe, grma. Díorthaíonn Donncha Ó Corráin an sloinne Ó Ruairc, dála an scéil, as an nGaeilge agus is é a mheas gurb é '-arg' an foirceann deiridh.
Gach bua is beannacht.


Bronntanais as an taobh sin tíre:
http://ireland.ru/photo/Roads/Road%20around%20Lough%20Gill%20%20Co%20Sligo.html (Ba le sinseanathair mo shinseanathar an chéad chnoc sin i gCo. Liatroma, lastoir den teach. D'fhág sé ag a gharmhac é sa bhl. 1840)

http://www.homestead.com/lavally/files/LoughGill2.jpg

http://www.guru.net.nz/gallery/Ireland/lough_gill_swans

Mo bhaile beag féin, a bhuí don duine (www.jonsullivan.com) a tharraing na pictiúir seo:
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2129
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2130
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2131
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2132
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2133
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2134
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2138
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2139
Ag amharc trasna Chuan Bhéal Easa Dara (ní hionann go díreach is Bhaile E. D.) ar an eireaball thoir de Shliabh Gamh:
http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2136

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Pangur_ban
Member
Username: Pangur_ban

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think of Karma as a teaching/learning experience, rather than punishment. That's one reason I believe in Reincarnation. There's just too much to learn in one life, and it would be a cruel god who would send one into Hell everlasting for not getting it right the first time. Some use their idea of Karma as an excuse for what they do to themselves as well as to others. And there are those who never seem to learn, and they can be groups as well as individuals, like the English Government.
Modern society has almost silenced the spirits of the land. Maybe we should start listening to those our ancestors knew, by whatever name, Side, Good People, the Gentry etc.!!!
And by the way, I'm a very practical person, not a weirdo.

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'dk@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.155
Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 09:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Haigh, a Sheosamh,
glad you liked the links. Thanks for the 'prezzies' of pix! Lough Gill is gorgous, surrounded by tress, little number of houses and the road at nearly at the shore. Even my local TD cannot get permission to build near a lake, and that will slow down unneeded destruction of the landscape. And with 16% of Leitrim under water...

Yea, if Kinsale had been pulled off, the power would have shifted to the North West. Baile Sligigh may have become a full blown city, or one in Tír Chonaill may have become the national capital, and the beautiful http://pdphoto.org/PictureDetail.php?oldpg=2131 at Strandhill where Misgán Méadbha's cairn is reputed to be might have been surrounded by developments...
and ended up like Kerry what with developemts all around. It is indeed a gift to be about North Leitrim and Sligo. Probebly the most beautiful part of Ireland!

I myself am a 'southerner', from Fionach as is is now called on the official sign. Just next to me is the 'Leabar Fidhnacha' or 'Book of Fenagh' or 'Old Book of Caillin' which it seems was kept by the heriditary coarbs the Ó Rodaigh family till the 19th century. http://www.ria.ie/library+catalogue/fenagh.html.
Tadgh Ó Rodaigh in 1690 is qouted as saying he had "...as many Irish books of philosophy, physic, poetry, genealogies, mathematics, invasions, law, romances, and as ancient as any in Ireland..." and the foreword asks "Where are they all now?".

The second link, I'd say is not too sensitve to spelling but 'Leaba Dearmudi Graine' is spot on as people still say locally that the lovers Dearmuid and Gráinne slept there after they eloped. Thats the old dolmen just a townland away from where I type. Mind you, people also say the ancient warrior Conall Gulban, or 'Conall Gulpan' as Leabar Fionach calls him, the supposed founder of Tír Chonaill is buried underneath!
Quite a busy landscape, what with Fionn mac Cumhaill been buried 2 parishes away in Cora Droim Ruisc (Carrick)and Conall's daddy, Niall Mór Naoighiallach, bringing Naomh Padraig to Ireland... One suspects one of Tadgh's jobs was to keep such stories going, even if they were never real, or at least not in that part of the country!

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.155
Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"I'm a very practical person, not a weirdo",
-Pangur_Ban

Well I don't know...listening to all those ancestors. Be a bit schitzoid having them chatting away, dropping in and out for tea; telling you to pay the Queen a visit...

I once read a book about the English people, who but a century ago, lived around where I grew up. They were the sort of people with names you could not make up -
William Bearer-Poncehorn, and the like. I wonder where they got to...just hope they're not related.

Well the lads, perhaps like many of their class, had little interest in girls anyway, so its not surprising they went the way of the dinosaurs; although with good Catholic Mrs O'Brien down the road bonking her way to 40 kids, how could the English madam's hips compete?

Old Poncehorn might say to us today "Do what I failed to do!". People of the Gaeltacht take note. Follow Mr's O'Briens advice.

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Pangur_ban
Member
Username: Pangur_ban

Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chara ('dj@ks),
The ancestors I'm refering to are most certainly not the "strangers", but the "gentle folk" who created places like Evain Macha, Newgrange etc. (hope my spelling is ok) The poor ol' Poncehoms could never have survived 8 centuries of their own sort of ethnic cleansing. I'd prefer to share a horn of Mead with some pre-Christian, pre-Druid Shaman, round a bonfire on a hilltop or have a meal with a family at their crannog.
OK, so I'm a bit romantic!
Slan, Pangur Ban

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.132
Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"...next to me is the 'Leabar Fidhnacha' or 'Book of Fenagh' or 'Old Book of Caillin' which it seems was kept by the heriditary coarbs the Ó Rodaigh family till the 19th century. http://www.ria.ie/library+catalogue/fenagh.html."

Just to clarify, I did not steal the book, nor am I boasting of owning the original! Reproduced by the Ordance Survey and tanslated and worked on by Hennessy and Kelly in 1875, or there abouts. This copy is probebely remade in the 1980's.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí
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Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá a fhios agam go leor faoi Fhiodhnach agus Achadh na Croise agus faoi Thadhg mac Gearóid mhic Thaidhg mhic Gearóid a 'dj@ks.
Thumas mo chloigeann i Leabhar Caillín san Acadamh i mBÁC, sa ls. féin agus údar agam leis ag an am. (Tuilleadh faoi sin am éigin amach anseo.)

Ba chol cúigir (1st. once removed) mé féin agus Gertie a bhfuil a hainm le Tigh Gertie/Gertie's Canal Stop i gCeis Charraigín agus is cuimhin liom clann Mhic Cionaoith agus taobh Drumrane. Tá dhá ghlúin taobh mo mháthar curtha i nDroim Cúng/Cill Tiobraide. Bhain siad, muintir Odhráin, le Screabach, le Gabhal agus le Ceis Charraigín. Téim ar ais chuig sochraidí agus bainiseacha gach ré bliain. Tharla i mBéal an Átha Móir mé an mhí seo caite ag sochraid agus casadh dom daoine nach bhfacas le blianta fada. D'ólas cupán tae i bhFiodhnach mar sin, 7 seacthaine ó shin! Tá dáimh agam leis an gceantar sin i gcónaí.

http://irishmegaliths.megalithomania.com/zFenaghBeg2.htm
http://irishmegaliths.megalithomania.com/zFenaghBeg.htm

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.253
Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

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