A chairde,
Do you feel Gaeilge is currently undergoing a revival outside the Gaeltacht?
It is fascinating to discover that so many young people are interested in learning it (although a forum for Irish naive speakers and learners can be likely to give a somewhat optimistic impression)? What is your view of it from the inside?

I like the term "Irish naive speakers"!

However, many of the people on this forum are based in America, so I wouldn't be too quick to judge a revival based on that.

Certainly, I believe Irish is becoming more public in Ireland, greatly helped by TG4 and teh gaelscoileanna movement.

Very unhappy typo! But my message was clear anyway. Thanks, Aonghus.

I think you have to take into account the number of Gaelscoils around Ireland. I live in Leixlip and we have a Gaelscoil here (unfortunately I wasn't sent there!). The population in that school is growing each year and it's just as popular as the English-speaking schools in the area.
Because of these gaelscoils everywhere, I know of a lot of young people who speak Irish fluently amongst themselves. But unless you're in the Gaelscoil group, you're unlikely to know who speaks the language as obviously they converse with new people in English.
When I was in first year, there were about over 200 people in my Nua-Ghaeilge class in Uni. That's only taking into account one year of one university. Imagine how many other people there are studying irish in university also!

a piper friend of mine lived in wexford and sent his little girl to a gaelscoil. since they moved here he says he can't wait to go back to get her back into that school, and more importantly, she isn't happy with the english school she's in now...

Could you explain what a gaelscoil is? I assume it is irish speaking children's school, is that right? Do children need to be fluent to enter? My family is considering a move to ireland in the next few years and putting my daughter in a gaelscoil would be ideal. She's only two months old now so she doesn't know much irish yet :-)

Gillian

Have a look here :

http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/default.asp

They are schools taught through the medium of the Irish lanuage. You do not have to be fluent to enter normally, however they have proven to be very popular in the last few years, so some schools have introduced a policy of only letting siblings of children already at the school join. I think it all depends, but generally they accept anyone I think. They teach exactly the same curriculam as normal schools, but with everything taught through Irish. All of the staff and school helpers and caretakers etc. all speak Irish as well.

it is a school (and there are various age levels out there) that teaches in Irish like an American school teaches in english. I do not believe (but I could be wrong) that there is an entrance test for fluency...

The young people who have been in such schools are not always fluent in Irish after that. And most of them have a bad accent (because most teachers and most other children aren’t native speaker > English accent).
If I were in Ireland I think I wouldn’t send my children to such schools, I’m afraid they’d learn wrong things, make mistakes etc, which they wouldn’t make if they only learn with me and with reliable resources...
You never know if the teacher speaks good Irish or not.

i thought they were trying to do something about regulating the level of the teachers

"i thought they were trying to do something about regulating the level of the teachers"
-Antaine

Does the dept of 'education' monitor gaelscoillanna? I'd doubt it since they would be quite happy to see Irish dissappear from peoples mouths.

In a very nationalistic town in my county the parents wanted the nionra and primaryschool thru Irish. The Dept kicked up a stink and basically said (with lavish helpings of condesension and high-handedness all round) that there would be no such thing around here. Parents got the nionra tho.

You see you dont convert a Anglo school, you have to build a new one and staff it from parents own pockets for at least 3 years before the government would consider funding it. It is now easier to get funding in the Protestant North East than the south.

Most kids in gaelscoilanna do an English pre school, then primary (gaelscoil) then English high school, and with parents who are monolingual English speakers. Few experience 3 phases of learning thru Gaelic. This is very unsupportive to speaking. Also there are less coláistaí than there are gaelscoileanna and the geogrpahical distributions do not co-incide.

I have never met anyone from one of them who knew how to string a sentance together. I know, I know, someone will say "But I went, and I'm fluent". Fair enough, but 100% should be fluent, and they are not. Purpose failed.

I think you see why Kevin Myers and co attack the so called 'gaelic revival' when one comes into contact with hypocracy and half-arsed measures. (In fact I think Myers would like to see it continue as a community langue, but s angry and frustrated by the obvious duplicity he sees in gaelgeoirí killing the langue softly, all the while mangling the sound in their mouths).

An anthropology professor once asked me "Can you have a contempory discussion thru Irish?". I think you can most definitly, but to a handful of people who don't interlard their Irish with English. As has been pointed out before, it is this lack of community grounding that is damaging the langue, as there are not enough people speaking it monolingually to have to ahve new words and coined at natural rates. Sure Irish probebly is at the higher end in terms of offical words coined, more so than langues used by 10's of millions of people in places like India, but how many actually use them? Why not just use English when one needs to know what a 'motherboard' is (An máthairchlár)?

It would be terrible if kids came out of gaelscoileanna not been able to a) speak b) or read c) or write d) pronounce e) or know anything about Irish, after all of the effort gone into setting it up.

they need to run the sch. like esl is run here...and fluent teachers all around...

oooo...here's a thought...the gov't could pick up the tab for the education of anyone who wants to study for and be certified a teacher who is fluent in Irish, provided they commit to teaching in a gaelscoil for 5 years.

some states do something like that here to get urban teachers...

I disgaree (now there's a surprise) with Lughaidh.

Of course Irish spoken in Gaelscoileanna is not Gaeltacht Irish, and there is some element of Creolization in it. However, I don't believe you would be able to teach your child Irish without support, and a Gaelscoil will give that support.

We lived in Germany for the first five years or so of my children's lives (they are 9 and 10 now), and it was very difficult teaching them with little or no resources.

Being in Ireland, and sending them to a Gaelscoil, was a definite help.

Most of the teachers are very fluent in the school my children attend, and the principal is a native speaker from Connacht. Most of the others come from Leinster Irish speaking families.


After all, your children will spend 6-7 hours at school each day. If you are working, they will only have 2-3 hours (awake) of your time.

Apart from anything else, if you are moving to Ireland, a Gaelscoil offers the best chance of a bilingual education, which has other benefits as well as learning Irish;

Aonghus,
I was painting with a broad brush. Of course some support is better than none, and the gaelscoil movement has achieved much with little resources. I don't mean to offend to parents, here or elsewhere who have set up schools. I was just questioning langue impoverishment when there was a foreign idiom, which at the same time was not a foreign tongue (English) able to jump in and lend words to the Irish speaker when required, and what might occur if this goes on too far.

Another question might be: does it matter if what is 'creoled' into existance is like traditional Gaeilge or not?

I hadn't read your post - I tend to skip over long posts, especially ones which mention Kevin Myers.

Creolization/mixing in English is happening both within and outside the Gaeltacht. There are no monolingual speakers of Irish anywhere. I would prefer it didn't happen.

quote:

An anthropology professor once asked me "Can you have a contempory discussion thru Irish?".

I regularly do. Ever second Thursday, in Trí D, dawson street. It's not hard. Sure, sometimes people fumble for words, but that happens to people in English too.

The biggest problem is that both Irish and English are being intermingled with jargon which many people use without understanding it.

In terms of taking terms into Irish, it has been happening for centuries (millenia even - aifreann, cruiscín, tábla, are all latin, eaglais is greek etc.)

I don't think there is harm in it provided:
1) A concept is translated, not a word for word translation of a half understood term.
2) The rules of Irish grammar are followed.

This issue is not unique to Irish. Most languages are being "infiltrated" with English terms, especially IT ones.

Germans will say "Ich habe das gestern gedownloadet", for example.

And if we are going to ban anyone, who cannot provide some kind of linguistic Ariernachweis that he has recieved his Irish from a line of speakers that he can trace back to Amergín, from speaking Irish; then the language will be dead in a generation.

Revival demands some compromise. The language will change. It has before, and will again.

I disagree (now there's a surprise) with Lughaidh.

I don't. Judging from the Gaelscoil teachers and pupils that I've heard on the radio, I think he's quite right. Sure, the kids may learn to talk "fluently," but not all that flows is fit for consumption.

Aonghus,
I wrote out an answer and by the time it got to 1000 words I thought it might not be read :)

Ergo, I give a snippet culled from it:

"If a) the structure of a langue changes and b) the culture it is associated with is no longer c) the wealth of semantic references and experiences are no longer relevant d) it loses all its vocabulary, e) its phonetic palette is swapped out for the foreign one, f) nobody cares or understands why this is a problem, but can label what they got as Irish…I think that is massively arrogant, and is just another form of colonial presumptiveness and condescension expressed, in this case, by descendants of the original out group."

Boils down to: ‘If you consider a langue to be a cluster of features that have certain ranges (parametres) and you label it 'Irish', how far can you diverge from that structure and still meaningfully still call it so?’

I will give one answer. If speakers one century removed from each other cannot enjoy mutual comprehension then there are grounds to suggest Irish is 'becoming another language'. That is a structural and sociological answer.

On the other hand, if you take a pure etymological viewpoint, then it will be the same langue.

PS. I am aware of the contradictions above (etymology vs structure).

PPS If you are fumbling for words you are not fluent, or are not fluently practiced in a section of the lexicon.

My opinion is that to be contemporarily fluent you must:
a) speak fluently and idiomatically
b) read fluently, and to a degree sufficient to understand general mildly technical texts beyond your speciality i.e. follow a lecture or piece on any branch of science laid out for members of the public or a science magazine
c) be able to make jokes in that langue, and naturally
d) write to a degree mirroring ones faculty in the langue, to an international standard by which ones vernacular background is untraceable to the non linguist, and
e) be able to set out by such coherence that record keeping, study, and instruction are facilitated by such ‘scríobhing’.

In business and college I have got to experience the result of lack of fluency in how people present themselves, their products, their ideas, and ultimately themselves. The fact is most people in Ireland lack full command of their native langue, English, so have no real bassline with which to compare foreign tongues such as Irish or French in a context of fluency. Furthermore they lack the discipline or skills required to make a considered analysis on such questions. Consequently the cúpla focáil nó quelques mots are good enough. You can boast –just hope no one catches you out.

I think you are missing my point.

I am objecting to both extremes - either "Irish which is not 100% pure is not Irish" or "Anything at all will do". Both these attitudes are extremely harmful to the language.


Neither Peadar (who lives in California), nor Lughaidh (who lives in France) are in touch with the communities of Irish speakers I am talking about. Most of whom emerged from revival households or via Gaelscoileanna.


And I personally have no more difficulty reading texts of a hundred years ago in Irish than I do in English.


And what constructive suggestions do those who reject Gaelscoileanna have?

BTW, Peadar - how do you identify who is a Gaelscoil pupil on the radio? I'm not aware they first announce "The person I am about to speak to is a former gaelscoil pupil"


Or are you talking about the specific school programmes?

Of course, this is not a new issue:

Tabhair a dhóthain den ardléann do Ghaeilgeoir agus ní Gaeilgeoir a thuilleadh é ach SCOLÁIRE. Agus, a chairde mo chléibh, is iontach na héanacha iad na scoláirí nuair a bhainnean siad amach beanna arda an léinn mhóir. Tugann siad gráin don uile fhocal den teanga Ghaeilge ach na focla a bhfuil seacht sreama na seanaoise orthu. Níl canúint is fearr leo ná an chanúint atá marbh le céad blian.
Bíonn a chanúint fhéin ag gach duine acu agus murar féidir leat í sin a labhairt leo go clocharach pislíneach mar is dual labhróidh siad Béarla leat. Bíonn Béarla an-bhreá acu go hiondúil. Le fírinne agus leis an gceart bíonn sé acu chomh maith nó níos fearr ná an Ghaeilge féin. Béarla gan chanúint a chleachtan siad, rud a chuireann ar a gcumas labhairt le formhór chuile Bhéarlóir. Buntáiste mór é seo gan dabht.
Breandán Ó hEithir, Feabhra 1958

Aonghus,

"I am objecting to both extremes - either "Irish which is not 100% pure is not Irish" or "Anything at all will do". Both these attitudes are extremely harmful to the language."

I agree.

"And I personally have no more difficulty reading texts of a hundred years ago in Irish than I do in English."

I meant that such a scenario may occur. How about kids of 2105 reading gaeltacht Irish from 2005? Will they get all the references?

"And what constructive suggestions do those who reject Gaelscoileanna have?"

They never have any. None.

I don't 'reject' them, only I was interested in how people can live the fantasy of speaking the same Irish as traditional when it it is in the process of becoming radically different. Same as how I am confused when I hear of a continity beween Celts of 3000 years ago and Irish people today. We are not 'Celtic' in Ireland any more than we are Mongolian. Labels are labels and nothing more.

quote:

How about kids of 2105 reading gaeltacht Irish from 2005? Will they get all the references?

How many kids of 2005 would "get all the references" in anything written in any language before l945?

Nobody is living any fantasy. Those involved in Gaelscoileanna and networks of speakers of Irish outside the Gaeltacht are perfectly aware of the shortcomings.

I didn't claim that Gaelscoil Irish was perfect, merely that it was the best option for Gillian to send her child to such a school (unless of course she is going lo live in a strong gaeltacht, which somehow I doubt).

(Message edited by aonghus on February 20, 2005)

how do you identify who is a Gaelscoil pupil on the radio? I'm not aware they first announce "The person I am about to speak to is a former gaelscoil pupil"

No, it's more like "Thug mé cuairt ar Ghaelscoil X agus seo roinnt den chomhrá a rinne mé le duine de na muinteoirí agus le cuid de na páistí..." or "Tá mé ar cuairt ag Gaelscoil X..."

However, I don't believe you would be able to teach your child Irish without support

Anyone who has acquired Irish as Lughaidh has can transmit Irish as a genuine, living language to children in school or at home, simply by talking to them in Irish —not faking it, but talking to them in Irish— all the time, day after day. A parent who can do that at home would not likely want to send a child to have his Irish ruined at school by a teacher with an inadequate grasp of the sound system, the syntax, semantics and everything else.

If the teachers at a particular school are native speakers or people who have acquired Irish as fully as Lughaidh evidently has, or as the likes of Dr. Nollaig Ó Muraíle, Dr. Séamas Ó Direáin (Jim Duran) and Pádraig Standún have acquired it, that's a different story.

Peadar.

In Ireland, you must send your child to school up to the age of 16.
So what is better: to send your child to a Gaelscoil where most of the teachers are
a) committed
b) fluent
c) trying their best to give children a life through Irish

and most of the parents have consciously chosen to send their children there because it is a Gaelscoil.

or to send them to an english speaking school where the teachers are at best indifferent to the language, and where most of the children regard the 40 minutes of broken Irish they are given every day as a waste of time?


If I were to rely on the two or three hours a day I see my children, since I also have to learn a living, to undo the damage of 6-7 hours in an environment potentially hostile to the language....

If Lughaidh could hypothetically manage to transmit his Gaeilge perfectly to his hypothetically home-schooled children, would they not then be left dependent on his conversation alone? Where would they find others with standards high enough to converse with? What is the point of language when you’re only content with your own level of conversation, with your own perfect speech sounds?

Do you feel Gaeilge is currently undergoing a revival outside the Gaeltacht?
. . . . What is your view of it from the inside?

In response to Stephan’s the original post, I’d have to give an emphatic response of ‘yes’. America is definitely outside the Gaeltacht and although we might not have perfect ‘r’s in our Gaeltacht so-ghluaiste, we, just like the gaelscoileanna have the energy and positive attitude that Irish so desperately needs. Do people on this forum realize that there are 80-100+ people attending these Gaeltacht immersion weekends listed on the event page of this site? That there are at least one or two of them every month? That there is a waiting list for many of the weekends and that people who don’t apply early must be turned away? That there is a regular core group that travels from city to city attending ALL of these weekends?

The constructive suggestion that I have to offer is that those who find the level of Irish in the Gaelscoileanna and the areas outside the Gaeltachts unacceptable should go and visit them, help them. Come and see for yourselves; come to the weekends in the states and Canada. We work with the best resources we have to produce the best Irish we can – as I’m sure the teachers in the Gaelscoileanna do. We know we’re not the Gaeltacht. But we’re alive and kicking and we’re doing our best. If we’re not good enough, come and help us, show us how to be better. Come and teach us. We welcome you, we beg you, we dare you!

Gillian, I believe all gaelscoileanna are different, but a friend who is very active in his children’s school says that their school requires at least one parent to speak Irish in the home with the child. If neither parent speaks Irish well, at least one of them must attend an evening class for parents that their school provides.

Ceist amháin, a Pheadar agus a Lughaidh:

An bhfuil gasúr agaibh?

"Boils down to: ‘If you consider a langue to be a cluster of features that have certain ranges (parametres) and you label it 'Irish', how far can you diverge from that structure and still meaningfully still call it so?’ "



I've always had a very simple definition: cultures and languages change and evolve over time. This is normal and right. The english are still called "Sasanach" because they are the descendants of the original Saxons (with some Angle, Jute and Norman later on). Likewise, modern Irish can trace their blood directly back to those spoken of by the Greeks as "Keltoi" (that is an answer to another point you made somewhere else)

as such, Irish is the language that is spoken where Irish is the first language. Sound a little circuitous? yeah, well perhaps it is. but if native speakers want to admit béarlacas terms as genuine, then they *are* genuine. We don't classify "pajamas" as a "foreign word" even though I suppose it could be called "hindish"...neither is resumé, fiancée, metropolis etc. they were all officially adopted "as was" and are considered by english speakers to be perfectly acceptable words in the english language albeit of foreign origin.

there is a site out on the www that has about five pages of "Gaeilge Computer Terms" and I am largely pleased with it as it is not just Gaeilzed english terms, but translations of the concepts...

Would this be the site you mean Antaine?

http://www.dcu.ie/fiontar/focloiri.shtml

Dála an scéil tá ceathrar clainne againne agus d'imigh an triúr is sine chuig gaelscoileanna agus tá an duine is óige ag freastal fós ar Ghaelscoil agus táimid lán sásta leis an gcumas sa teanga atá ag na páistí, ach níos mó ná sin leis an dearcadh álainn atá acu i leith na teanga.

While you are browsing the site look up fiontar and prepare to be impressed.

Antaine,
"modern Irish can trace their blood directly back to those spoken of by the Greeks as 'Keltoi'".

Genetic research indicates, and I say, 'indicates' that Basques, Irish, Welsh and English in the south from Cornwall to London, are mostly descended from the original post ice-age stone age inhabitants of the lands of Europe. Similar but not quite the study I’m talking about: www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/capelli-CB-03.pdf

Granted it is a statistical analysis, i.e. you label some feature like a Y chromosomes of a type mostly found in Holland and you test the whole of Britain, and when you find it predominates mostly in the midlands you say ancient German tribes come from Holland to the Birmingham. However that is not history, only correlations).

"those spoken of by the Greeks as 'Keltoi'" -was this not a generic term for all barbarians?

As far as I'm aware archaeology suggests the Celts effected a cultural change, gradually replacing the upper classes of what once was, but not a genetic change; but of course I’m aware to the degree that I have filtered patchy and perhaps patchily available evidence, and that is not historical reality ‘as is’.

It is an opinion of mine, although I know not everyone will share, that it is groups of people that have cultures, and that genetics is a separate issue, or at least on the level of one person, and you can’t trace culture thru time via genetic analysis.

(Lighter (but unrelated) reading: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/bloodofthevikings/vikingmap.shtml )

"Gaeilge Computer Terms" and I am largely pleased with it as it is not just Gaelicised English terms, but translations of the concepts...”

motherboard máthairlosaid ~ mother kneading-trough! Well as 'source kneading-trough' its not too bad!

At the danger of causing rolling of eyes, might I be a smidgen philosophical and say a motherboard is a physical device/object which needs a noun to name it. ‘Concepts’ and ‘ideas’ could be considered separate; but as a thousand careers in said discipline have been launched upon just such a remark, lets not go there.

There is no need to impress me to the possibility of tek words as gaeilge –I thrust the auld sow to be versatile and accomodate what time throws at her!

"losaid" exists frequently in law texts as a way of expressing "Everything even the kitchen sink" so it is in keeping with how the language was used at its height to translate a term for that part of a computer that acts as the source of "Everthing even the kitchen sink". Losaid was used also to express ideas such as "table spread with food", a small folding table, and tabletop [all native monolingual uses]. You'll also note it was used for a wooden tray [old motherboards even in colour had an appearance not dissimilar to such a tray]. Given this it seems the sort of thing my dad - a native speaker - would have said at the sight of such a thing. Indeed, his terms for new technology were invariably of this nature and what is more they were naturally exchanged with others of a similar linguistic background with agreed interpretation.

'dj@ks - I heard the same sort of whines about Welsh a couple of decades ago. I don't think one could say that Welsh hasn't managed to improve incredibly over that period. With opportunity and with a positive attitude towards the language its quality has also begun a revival. As a very successful university educator I know the value of taking a stepwise approach to developing skills. In language terms there is much to be said for taking the stepwise approach as was taken in Norway where a more regularised form of the native language was provided for learners. As adults these speakers provided a linguistically higher starting point for their offspring many of whom learnt the original more idiomatic language. The end result of this process is gratifying to see, as was the restoration of the Hebrew language after 3,000 years of relegation to a ceremonial language role.

With respect to children not having common references with previous generations - this not unusual in any language. I was frequently lost by references to my mother’s childhood world - yet we seemed to communicate rather well.

With respects to mothers and motherboards, a motherboard doesn't look anything like my mother, it doesn't give birth to anything, however I suppose I should not mind the fact that I don't seem to have the right handle on the "source" or contextual reference for this term in English - let's face it : I didn't coin it, I wasn't there when it was, nor will any of my misgivings about its negative impact on the image of mothers change it's existence. But if having a native faculty with languages requires such understanding I doubt that many speakers of any language manage to have the remotest knowledge of the underlying reference to anything but the most current vocabulary.

For example how many Irish speakers recognise that dobeir comes from do + beir which is the preposition "to" + the verb "bare" hence "bare to". The form of dobeir with "t" replacing "d" then gives us tobeir which eventually becomes tabhair the modern word for "to give". Recognising this would then allow them to see the connections to other Indo-European languages such as German with gehen ausgehen etc. However, I wouldn't consider such a speaker without such important references not fluent in the language they use.

As a child who attended Irish schools, I found the quality of teaching superb - as was reflected by the unusually high level of university graduates/post-graduates amongst the former students. The only negative impact on my educational development was when I was struck by an English speaker on a bus for speaking to my brother in Irish. I think that virtually dead attitude was much more detrimental to the Irish language than an Irish language school could ever be. That slap from a monolingual woman who would have considered herself superior to this multilingual kid of seven years had one very important outcome namely that I’ve learnt never to discourage unless I have something better to offer. So 'dj@ks cough up something useful.

Your whines appear on the surface to offer a demand for rigour, something with which I most heartily agree. However, if this is the case the teacher must also attain such lofty standards by recognising the requirement for the educator to motivate. Given your utterances one would either question your level of attainment or your intent. Indeed your comments could be a cause of greater damage than a missed reference or maybe even than a smack in the face. If you want to contribute teach the contextual references or whatever. However, if your intent is as it might appear either an ego trip or to act as a detractor, keep your demotivational speeches for the person who needs them namely yourself.

Children in Gaelscoileanna in the South of Ireland (my own included) tend to be líofa lofa(great communication, rotten grammar and/or pronunciation), which is best helped by periods in Gaeltacht areas.
My own kids only learnt a lot English words when they first went to the Gaelscoil, from the other kids. Swings and roundabouts, as they say here. OK, so we were pagans, and they didn't know the English for 'sagart'. So sue me.
I still would not have sent them to an English-speaking school, where they would have absorbed a negative attitude to their maternal language. Language encases cultural attitudes and social mores, not just grammatical systems. It is what our children learn in the hidden curriculum as well as the overt syllabus that is of value to us and to them.

My riposte:

I responded to numerous statements in the spirit of stimulating dialogue. I am not aware of attacking Aonghus or anyone else. If I did inadvertently, I apologise. No abrasiveness was deliberate.

Mr S Mac S, why the displeasure? Should gaelgeoirí be of a weak emotional disposition? Is everyone feeling enraged? Is this a teddy bears tea part where baby will throw the cup if I don’t give rag doll the cupcake first, then big bear, then little bear, all in their proper turn? Will we all sit down and be nice to one another in a sugary, false and iniquitous manner? There are positive bad negative dimensions to the dream to re-ignite Irish and the bad ones won't go away by 'slapping' me. As for disparagement: to anyone disparaged by my statements, I fear insult awaits you at every turn. If you'd like to whine and give up becasue I don't agree with you, that is your fault, not mine.

When I produced the list ‘dimensions of fluency’ I was simply striving for frames of reference. I did not list my abilities in English and assume they were the sonum bonum of faculty and thus must be the standard for all to strive towards. Why not add public speaking? Lacking experience I might fail just such a test.

“…‘losaid’ exists frequently in law texts as a way of expressing ‘Everything even the kitchen sink’ so it is in keeping with how the language was used at its height to translate a term for that part of a computer that acts as the source of ‘Everything even the kitchen sink’…”

Losaid; I did not diss it. As for semantic continuity between the past and present, I never whined, I questioned it. Moreover I queried the unconscious assumption that Gaelic thru time is and always will be the same, and I was not the only one:

"Séamus Ó Searcaigh warned about this in 1953, when he wrote that what will emerge will be "Gaedhilg nach mbéidh suim againn inntí mar nár fhás sí go nádúrtha as an teangaidh a thug Gaedhil go hÉirinn" (Irish which is of no interest to us, for it has not developed naturally from the language brought to Ireland by the Gaels)."

and...

"Most telling of all, for me, are the words of John Ghráinne Ó Duibheannaigh, surely one of the best living speakers of Irish: "creidim go mairfidh an Ghaedhilg ach ní thuigfidh mise í." (I am convinced that Irish will survive, but I will not be able to understand it)".
- Ciarán Ó Duibhín, Irish News, 10 April 2004.

It was those sentiments by a native speaker with credibility (John Ghráinne Ó Duibheannaigh ) that piqued my initial desire to post what I did. (www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/mcq/ulsterirish.htm.) I took it to mean a fundamental reworking of how the langue was used semantically was in progress. Thus I was interested to hear views on it. When I then asked why people believe there is no change nobody cared or was courteous enough to answer the question fully.

To show up similar shaky thinking on things Irish, I referred to those who kine on about the modern Irish population been in toto the descendants, genetically and culturally, of the continental La Tène Celt. I said why I did not think it reasonable and backed it up with a link to material that was supportive in its thrust (www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/capelli-CB-03.pdf). In disagreeing that the Irish population are en mass descended from central Europen peoples, when contrary evidence suggests there has never been radical genotypic replacement in Ireland, I stepped on another sacred cow. Hush Daisy.

“'dj@ks - I heard the same sort of whines about Welsh a couple of decades ago….”

A whole big paragraph that goes after ghosts. I never questioned the validity of the intent to secure Irish, but why so many gaelgeoirí are indifferent to the standards of what is been produced.

“I was frequently lost by references to my mother’s childhood world…[and] a motherboard doesn't look anything like my mother… but I doubt speakers have knowledge of the underlying reference to anything but the most current vocabulary.”

I was not on the “syntax meant ‘arrangement’ in ancient Greek so it must mean that now” tip, as if meanings in foreign languages remote in time and space had any bearing on how a contemporary uses langue.
The allusion to references was based on the position that the realtionship between conceptuality and langue is complex, and I did not want to get into an area that philosophers have spent centures on, and which we would collectively add nothing to.
What I was digging at was how ideas are often just co-related with a word without atomisation existent. Witness ‘gild the lily’. Nothing in it could be analysed to tell one what it referred to just by simple scanning of a lexicon. The references appear held ‘outside’ the phrase.

Why is it that the Indus Valley script has not been deciphered? (http://www.ancientscripts.com/indus.html ) I would contend that most meaning is ‘external’ to the script or code utilised. The symbols I’m typing now do not encode enough information to enable someone who cannot speak English (or any modern related langue that might shed light on it) 10,000 years in the future what I mean. What is known about Linear A (http://www.omniglot.com/writing/lineara.htm ) and the Voynich Manuscript? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript ). Perhaps bits about word counts, and bits about grammar. But what do they say?

“As a child who attended Irish schools, I found the quality of teaching superb…”

That is your experience. I commended the efforts of parents to set up schools of this nature, and nationally they outperform Anglo schools. I have never met a pupil from one who could speak Gaelic. That’s my experience.

“Your whines appear on the surface to offer a demand for rigour, something with which I most heartily agree.”

Yes I expect professionalism as standard, not as an ‘added-extra’. How long would you hold your post if you were ill qualified? Irish standards not so important then?

“Indeed your comments could be a cause of greater damage than a smack in the face…keep your demotivational speeches for the person who needs them namely yourself.”

I never speak ill of Gaeilge, in public or private. My mouth is kept purse, knowing the difference between a cúpla focail, and actually learning it. Want an example from Ireland? ‘Án Poitín Still’, the name of a chain of pubs. Is that Irish? Who is doing the harm? How will disagreeing with one person on a few points destroy Irish?

I started on a tip provided by a genuine speaker. I re-tenored his question and posed a related corral of points. What was the response? Hostility. I wonder would you attack him if he were here? I doubt it.

An bhfuil gasúr agaibh?

Tá mac amháin agamsa. Naoi mbliana is fiche d'aois a bheas sé faoi cheann seachtaine. An bhean a bhí agam, ní raibh ach Spáinnis aici nuair a phós mé í. Thoisigh sí ag foghlaim Béarla, rug sí eisean, agus ar feadh tuairim is ceithre bliana labhraíomaist Spáinnis seachtain amháin, agus Béarla an dara seachtain. I ndiaidh an ama sin stad an bheirt againn de labhairt an Bhéarla le chéile agus leis an bpáiste. Spáinnis a labhraímse le mo mhac i gcónaí, nuair a fheicim é nó a labhraím leis (ach amháin nuair a bhíonns muid i gcuideachta daoine, ag comhrá le daoine nach bhfuil Spáinnis acu), agus labhraíonn seisean Béarla liom, ach labhraíonn sé Spáinnis chomh maith. Labhraíonn agus Seapáinis, teangaidh nach bhfuil agamsa ar chor ar bith. Is fada an scéal é le n-inseacht...

Maith go leor.

An taithí atá agamsa le clainn le tuiste le Gearmáinís in Éireann, agus le Gaeilgeoirí, go bhfuil níos mó de dhíth na tuismitheoir amháin ag labhairt leis an bpaiste chun an teanga a chothú.

Níl mé ag rá go bhfuil sé do dhéanta - ach tá sé deacair.

An raibh, mar shampla, Teilfís spáinnise ar fáil agaibh? Nó ar raibh comhluadar eile spáinneach timpeall? (Bheadh i gCalifornia, nach mbeadh?)

A Réaltáin, mo cheol thú,

w.r.t. "Irish standards not so important then?"

There are basic standards in everything that must be achieved for efficacy. In educating this standard includes a capacity to motivate. The requirement to give encouragement follows from this.

One can only have high standards in activities once engagement has taken place. If people don't even bother to use a word or two then getting them to the standards we both would love to hear is out of the question.

My fear is negative sentiment expressed in the context of the young-and-impressionable’s efforts could change a desire for rigour into de facto rigour mortis.

With respect to a lack of fluency in school leavers, if I reflect back to my period it was those classes who had teachers who emphasized grammatical rigour that produced the least linguistically competent students.

I had fluent Irish when I entered secondary school, as my father was a native speaker and my mother was a german who spoke Irish. It was used at home until my younger brother was born with developmental problems. At school unfortunately, I used "ar an bhord" rather than "ar an mbord" [actually I use "tábla"]. This produced a period of hyper-correction by the only poor teacher on the staff - who was only fit for giving punishment. This left me with a stammer in Irish for years. I was always afraid that what I was about to say would have negative sequellae, so I would stop myself and check the grammar in mid-sentence several times. Fortunately, I subsequently had teachers of ability who restored my confidence.

With respect to hidden-curriculum it is the key to providing a sustaining environment for any language development. When one considers that in order to speak Irish a child outside of gaelscoil and sometimes within must do the one thing children hate, and that is to be considered different. It is a testament to their personal commitment that they do this.

fé mar a ndúirt Realtan, is cainteoirí líofa lofa cuid mhór díobh. Ach más ea is fearr sin ná bheith lofa líofa agus an teanga ar chúl éaga. Mólaim iad agus tá muinín agam go tiocfaidh siad. Más áilleacht an cruinneas, b’fhearr liom an binneas, óir is lú an áilleacht ná an grá.

Is mise, le meas

SMcS

"I started on a tip provided by a genuine speaker"

I would be just as demanding of this individual if he regarded Líofa lofa speakers as not being genuine.

Irish is Irish is Irish, as far as I'm concerned. Let the language be, for God's sake!! So what if someof the words are taken from English? So what if children in Gaelscoils don't have a particular canúint? It is still Irish.
Languages all have to start somewhere. Dialects all have to start somewhere. In years to come the "Gaelscoil dialect" will become a dialect of its own, much like the Ulster, Munster and Connacht dialects.
As supporters of the Irish language, I feel that we shouldn't be seeing the negative side of Gaelscoils. I think they're wonderful! And I think it's great that it's formed a sort of dialect of its own, and an accent of its own.
I just don't understand the bickering about the validity of the Irish in Gaelscoils. It's a dialect of irish, as far as I'm concerned and that's that. I'm extremely happy with these places that promote the Irish language.

I had fluent Irish when I entered secondary school, as my father was a native speaker and my mother was a german who spoke Irish. It was used at home until my younger brother was born with developmental problems. At school unfortunately, I used "ar an bhord" rather than "ar an mbord" [actually I use "tábla"]. This produced a period of hyper-correction by the only poor teacher on the staff - who was only fit for giving punishment. This left me with a stammer in Irish for years. I was always afraid that what I was about to say would have negative sequellae, so I would stop myself and check the grammar in mid-sentence several times. Fortunately, I subsequently had teachers of ability who restored my confidence.

And unless I miss my guess, a chara, you're the same McS who vanished from sight several years ago on another Irish website. Should this be the case, I'd like to say tá fáilte romhat (all purists notwithstanding) and urge you to stick around and continue posting. You have much to offer here, not to mention a very easy to grasp teaching style.

Le meas,

Pádraig

Aontaím leat, a Chailín.

I once heard Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill speak about how distressed she was at first to hear her children speaking a form of Irish that was not the same pure one she spoke and wrote in. I believe she used the word "creolization". But in time she grew to view it differently - that her children were actively involved in keeping the language alive through its daily use both inside and outside the classroom.

Someone from the 19th century would more than likely be appalled to hear English spoken today, and would probably shudder to read what passes for good composition in the classroom. But that is the essence of a living language - neither pure nor static.

There will always be those who are more academic, working to keep the structure of the language intact, and every language needs them. And some of those gatekeepers of the future will eventually rise from the ranks of students attending Gaelscoileanna today - in am, cuirfidh siad snas ar a gcuid Gaeilge agus tabharfaidh siad dea-shampla dona daltaí ag teacht ina ndiadh féin.

Sílimse go mbeidh páirt mhór ag na Gaelscoileanna sa gcoiméad don Ghaeilge.

Cailín - absolutely! but as a teacher I can tell you that analysis of curricula and methods can serve to make bwhat's good even better...so the gaelscoils should be lauded and cherished, but never shy away from genuine criticism

"There are some teachers in the Scuole Medie who are very well spoken and trained to a high level to teach English and then there is the other side of the coin—teachers who don't even understand me after nine months of teaching by their sides simply because they haven't learned English very well themselves. I've learned a lot reading Monica's letter, for example that there was a shortage of English teachers in the past so the posts were open to anyone willing to give it a go. And to stress her point again, there is no common ground for English teachers at this level as they all have different levels of English themselves. This inconsistency is then carried on through the pupils into Scuola Superiore.

When pupils arrive at Scuola Superiore level they have to restart learning English all over again as they picked up bad habits from Scuola Media or simply took a disliking for the language. This is frustrating for the teacher as he or she has an even tougher job to do, undoing common mistakes and at the same time trying to move their English forward. I work with five teachers at Scuola Superiore and all of them say the same thing. The first years are the toughest to teach. One teacher told me she dreads going in to teach her first-year class because after the class she is completely exhausted and drained.

My opinion as an outsider looking in:

I really believe there should be more of a learning curve between Scuola Media and Scuola Superiore. At the moment it resembles a car jump-starting. Pupils start learning English at Scuola Media and then start learning it again from the same point at Scuola Superiore. It leaves me wondering whether they should be learning it at Scuola Media at all!!"

http://www.onestopenglish.com/ProfessionalSupport/Travellog/teaching_english_ita ly.htm

"Our teachers are all English native speakers, graduated and with internationally recognised qualifications in the teaching of English ... with a vast experience in the teaching of English to foreign students."

http://englishexpressitaly.com/how_we_work.htm

And that doesn't mean "native speakers" of the "Scuola Media dialect" or of the "Scuola Superiore dialect."

remember, tho...that english is far from an endangered language...desperate times call for desperate measures. preserving and generating interest in the language now allows more to be done later.

Má tá tú ag lorg cara gan locht, beidh tú gan cara go deo.

and face it...the language needs its friends...I wouldn't say Gaeilge is on "life support" or needs "resucitation," but it is definitely on daily meds and weekly dialysis, to over-extend the metaphor...

A Phádraig, A Chara,

Conas taoi? Sorry for the loss of contact. I was off-line for a while due to health issues and major computer crash - will pop into this site from time to time, and might even do something useful :)

le meas

SMcS

wow - I certainly got my question answered and more! Assumming we do, in fact, move to Ireland in the future, I think I'll put my daughter in a geascoil and also do summers and such in a gaeltacht. I would love to move to a gealtacht though I would have to study my Irish quite hard between now and then. Is it difficult to move to a gaeltacht? Do they discourage non-fluent speakers or native Irish?

Gillian

An excellent question Gillian, and one that I would certainly like to know the answer to as well! ;)

quote:

Is it difficult to move to a gaeltacht? Do they discourage non-fluent speakers or native Irish?

There is some restrictions on who can buy a house in a larger development in the Gaeltacht - a certain percentage is set aside for Irish speakers, the percentage varying with the local percentage of Irish speakers.

There is no restriction for a single house. I'd say that if you can make a living there (and even better provide a living for others) you'll be welcome.

But making a living will not be easy - they are in remote areas; many people are forced to commute to largeer towns or cities for work.

A Réaltáin,
“Children in Gaelscoileanna in the South of Ireland (my own included) tend to be líofa lofa (great communication, rotten grammar and/or pronunciation)… My own kids only learnt a lot English words when they first went to the Gaelscoil…their maternal language…”

Cé acu teanga ar do lheanaí é príomha? Gaeilge nó béarla? Do scéal thuas, ta sé beagán mearbhallach! Ceapim gur an iomarca leanaí tar istigh na scoil ach níl aon gaeilge ar a thuismitheoirí; da bhrí sin, ní bhfuil a lán measa ar na teanga. Go cinnite, ní bhfuil a lán tacaíochta istigh a leithéid tithe.

Which langue is their primary? Irish nor English? From your narrative it’s a bit choppy! (Tho I know it is gaeilge, but it reads disjointed). I think (from that) too many kids attend gaelscoilleanna but there is no Irish in the parents; therefore respect is lessoned for it. Definitely, there is little support inside such houses.



SMcS,
“One can only have high standards in activities once engagement has taken place. If people don't even bother to use a word or two then getting them to the standards we both would love to hear is out of the question.”
-SMcS.

Aontaíom leat. Bheadh sé go maith dá fhoghleoidís (daoine) na teanga, [even] céim ar chéim. Cúpla focail nó aon focal amháin, caithfidh sé tosú áit éigin.

I agree. It i’d be great if people would learn the langue, even piece by piece. Few word or one word only, it has to start somewhere.

“…a desire for rigour into de facto rigour mortis.”

Is féidir é, cinnte. B’féidir go caithfimid go bhfuil níos bog orainn.

Very possible. Perhaps we should be more soft (re: rigourosity).

“With respect to a lack of fluency in school leavers, if I reflect back to my period it was those classes who had teachers who emphasized grammatical rigour that produced the least linguistically competent students.”

Féic ar na ranganna sa scoilleanna transa na tire. Nil aon leanaí ag caint. Tá said ina luí!

Look at the classes across the land. The kids ain’t talking, but out of it (with bordom!).

“I subsequently had teachers of ability who restored my confidence.”

Maith an fear.

“With respect to hidden-curriculum it is the key to providing a sustaining environment for any language development. When one considers that in order to speak Irish a child outside of gaelscoil and sometimes within must do the one thing children hate, and that is to be considered different. It is a testament to their personal commitment that they do this.”

Tá na cruthanna sóisialta agus an maith dearcadh pearsanta [calque], caithfidh said beidh in áit.

Yea, social conditions and strong individual attitudes need to be in place (for langue acquisition in groups to work).



“Irish is Irish is Irish, as far as I'm concerned. Let the language be, for God's sake!! So what if someof the words are taken from English? So what if children in Gaelscoils don't have a particular canúint? It is still Irish.
Languages all have to start somewhere. Dialects all have to start somewhere. In years to come the "Gaelscoil dialect" will become a dialect of its own, much like the Ulster, Munster and Connacht dialects.
As supporters of the Irish language, I feel that we shouldn't be seeing the negative side of Gaelscoils. I think they're wonderful! And I think it's great that it's formed a sort of dialect of its own, and an accent of its own.
I just don't understand the bickering about the validity of the Irish in Gaelscoils. It's a dialect of irish, as far as I'm concerned and that's that. I'm extremely happy with these places that promote the Irish language.”
-Cailin

Dá na aidhm atá ag labhairt gaeilge ‘as is’, cén fáth a tógann tú cúpla píosaí ón ngaeilge, agus a lán piosa ón mbéarla. Cén fáth nach foghlaimíonn tú gaeilge ‘straight up’? Níl tú ach do mhealladh féin sa deireadh thiar thall.

If the aim is the speak a real langue, why use Irish only as a stimulus for the making of a ‘high class cant’? Why not learn the langue ‘as is’. (As has been covered in these pages here before, there is much reason to suspect both the atitiude in gaelge-nua, or ‘gaeilge makey-upy’ and the half-educated, half-baked bourgeois arrogance that accompanies such an construction).

Ní dúirt mé ‘shure english words, they’re bad’. Is maith liom ainmfhocalaí nua.



“I once heard Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill speak about how distressed she was at first to hear her children speaking a form of Irish that was not the same pure one she spoke and wrote in. I believe she used the word "creolization". But in time she grew to view it differently - that her children were actively involved in keeping the language alive through its daily use both inside and outside the classroom.

Someone from the 19th century would more than likely be appalled to hear English spoken today, and would probably shudder to read what passes for good composition in the classroom. But that is the essence of a living language - neither pure nor static.”
-Nora

Ceapaim ní bhfuil sé ‘an h-iompu chun bisigh’ mar tá sé ‘tógha ar an sotal’ (gaeilge pretendach).
Áfach, (arsa Tescos) ‘every little helps’.

A made up langue does not support the society that held it for so long (gaeltach), but, maybe it will assist the langue to be continued (even if the culture not). (And yes I am aware of the irony of using Tesco in the example).



“Cailín - absolutely! but as a teacher I can tell you that analysis of curricula and methods can serve to make what's good even better...so the gaelscoils should be lauded and cherished, but never shy away from genuine criticism.”
-Antaine

(Na) ainailís sa gaeilscoilleanna? Tá gá móir leis.

They might profit from a little focus on the technical side of the matter.



“Remember, tho...that english is far from an endangered language...desperate times call for desperate measures. Preserving and generating interest in the language now allows more to be done later.”
-Antaine

Áirceanna na ghaeilge? Gaeltachtaí nua? Na gheis móir!

Oh no! Don’t mention setting up Gaelic villages, or group-held land with boundaries to ensure langue survival. Taboo! It’s a constructive option. Why not build our own? Maybe there needs to be a culture to go along with the langue.


PS me who is not fluent niggling on Irish is mentionable, I know.

No, i mean lets get them speaking it and WANTING to speak it, and worry about "cleaning it up" later...(at least that's what i think i meant, it was awhile ago I wrote it)

"No, i mean lets get them speaking it and WANTING to speak it, and worry about "cleaning it up" later...(at least that's what i think i meant, it was awhile ago I wrote it)"

Cheap mé sin.

Yep, I was thinkin' you meant that