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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 18, 2005 » SOME PHONETIC FEATURES OF GAEILGE « Previous Next »

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Could anyone confirm to me that Gaeilge does not have the unrounded [u:] vowel which frequently corresponds to the realisation of the (typographic) "ao" sequence in Gaidhlig.

I also feel that voiced velar fricative consonants (the consonant sound at the beginning of dhoras in "dha dhoras") are a bit different in Gaeilge from what they sound like in Ghaidlig. Could anybody tell me if they feel I am right here.

Many thanks again.

Stephan

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If you mean the German <ö> sound (French eu) for Scottish , I think it doesn't exist in Irish (or at least in today Irish; for the irish dialect that was spoken in the Glens of Antrim i'm not so sure because it was very close to scottish gaelic, and so was the one of Rathlin Island). In Donegal, that is pronounced with a strange <ü> sound (quite like german ü, french u) in some dialects. But it's not the same sound as in Scottish Gaelic.

Voiced velar fricative consonants are the same in both languages, i think. Or maybe you've heard dialects that have a special pronounciation for it, but i think it's an exception and not the general rule for both Irish an Scottish Gaelic. The sound is normally the same.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 593
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Could anyone confirm to me that Gaeilge does not have the unrounded [u:] vowel which frequently corresponds to the realisation of the (typographic) "ao" sequence in Gaidhlig

In the dialect I speak, Munster Irish, the vowel corresponding to Gàidhlig "ao" is not found - nor is it in Connacht. In Donegal, "ao" is pronounced in many different ways between the Ulster dialects. When I lived in the Connemara Gaeltacht I knew a native speaker from Donegal who also spoke Gaelic. She once said that one peculiar feature of her dialect was that they, contrary to other Donegal speakers, pronounce "ao" just as in Scotland. In other words, I cannot confirm that the allophone you're mentioning is not found at all in Irish, but it's not found in any major dialect nor in the sta´ndard language.

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 02:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you very much, Lugaidh and Jonas. It is very interesting and instructive.
Stephan

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 03:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i:, I: (= ao, aoi an leitrí).
Tá I: rud beag íslighthe i gcomórtas le i: agus tá sé níos faide siar ná i:. Sé I: a chluinim go háirid le taoibh chonsan leathan (sI:l saoghal, gin. si:l´ saoghail). Is ionann an I: seo agus an I: (ao) a chuala mé i gCárna Conamara...

...Insna ceantracha eile i dTír Chonaill bíonn fuaim eile (:) i n-áit an i: (I:) seo. : a bíos insna Gleanntaí ach ní bhfuair mé lorg ar bith de i dTeilionn ná i nGleann Cholm Cille ach oiread...thig Gaedhilge Theilinn le Gaedhilge Chonnachta insa phoinnte seo...

-- Heinrich Wagner, “Gaeilge Theilinn,” 1959.
__________

CHAPTER IV

AO

The vowel spelled ao to-day has two pronunciations in Northern Irish: (1) a lowered and retracted í, which we may denote in Irish spelling by the combination aío (or uío), and in phonetic script by I:, and (2) an unrounded ú (high-back-narrow), which we may indicate phonetically by an inverted y (:). The first pronunciation is found in Connacht, in N.W. Cavan, and in N. Meath. The second is, or was, found in the greater portion of Ulster, including Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Armagh, and Antrim. In N.W. Ulster (Donegal) both pronunciations (I: and :) are in use, but the former has been gaining ground in recent years.

--Thomas F. O’Rahilly, “Irish Dialects Past and Present,” 1932.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 99
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 04:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's the same message with @ and ÿ substituted for schwa and inverted y, respectively, for those whose computers don't show them as such:
__________

i:, I: (= ao, aoi an leitrí).
Tá I: rud beag íslighthe i gcomórtas le i: agus tá sé níos faide siar ná i:. Sé I: a chluinim go háirid le taoibh chonsan leathan (sI:@l saoghal, gin. si:l´ saoghail). Is ionann an I: seo agus an I: (ao) a chuala mé i gCárna Conamara...

...Insna ceantracha eile i dTír Chonaill bíonn fuaim eile (ÿ:) i n-áit an i: (I:) seo. ÿ: a bíos insna Gleanntaí ach ní bhfuair mé lorg ar bith de i dTeilionn ná i nGleann Cholm Cille ach oiread...thig Gaedhilge Theilinn le Gaedhilge Chonnachta insa phoinnte seo...

-- Heinrich Wagner, “Gaeilge Theilinn,” 1959.
__________

CHAPTER IV

AO

The vowel spelled ao to-day has two pronunciations in Northern Irish: (1) a lowered and retracted í, which we may denote in Irish spelling by the combination aío (or uío), and in phonetic script by I:, and (2) an unrounded ú (high-back-narrow), which we may indicate phonetically by an inverted y (ÿ:). The first pronunciation is found in Connacht, in N.W. Cavan, and in N. Meath. The second is, or was, found in the greater portion of Ulster, including Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Armagh, and Antrim. In N.W. Ulster (Donegal) both pronunciations (I: and ÿ:) are in use, but the former has been gaining ground in recent years.

--Thomas F. O’Rahilly, “Irish Dialects Past and Present,” 1932.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 04:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

γ

This is a sound entirely foreign to even the local pronunciation of English. It is the voiced fricative, corresponding to [x], or a g formed with imperfect occlusion. Some speakers are inclined to use a plain [g], others a [v], and others again an [x] (or a sound resembling it), preferably in final position. But as a rule [γ] is distinct from both [g] and [x].

-- Nils M. Holmer, "The Gaelic of Kintyre," 1962.
__________

γ

The voiced velar fricative is not now found either in English or in Lowland Scots. In Arran it is nowadays almost entirely restricted to initial position, e.g. dhomh fhéin γò 'he:N 'to myself', a' Ghàidhlig  γa:lig´ '(the) Gaelic,' a' ghrian  γriaN 'the sun,' cha do ghoid mi xa D γöd§ mi 'I did not steal.' [The γ of Mrs. Anderson of Shiskine] is rather like Parisian 'r' (grasseyé), but it is usually much weaker and occasionally not much more than a voiced 'h.'

-- Nils M. Holmer, "The Gaelic of Arran," 1957

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 05:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Extremely interesting, a Pheadar... I should not have thought so much detailed material was to be found on the phonetics of Gaeilge and Gàidhlig. It is truly fascinating.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 06:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ruairidh MacIlleathain, of Raidio nan Gaidheal and "Litir do Luchd Ionnsachaidh" etc., does not make much of a fricative of his dh's and gh's. He seems regularly to use a voiced stop instead. It sounds pretty weakly articulated: just barely occlusive, maybe, but occlusive; and it is clearly voiced, and is thus distinct from unlenited /g/, which in Scottish Gaelic is unaspirated but voiceless.

I haven't heard any substitution of the stop for the fricative in the Gaelic of the Outer Hebrides, and I don't think I've heard it in that of Skye. Ruairidh lives in Inverness and he's mentioned that his father was from Applecross, so I gather he is himself a native speaker of Mainland Gaelic, and perhaps his pronunciation is close to his father's.

I think the most important difference between Irish and Scottish Gaelic with respect to the voiced velar fricative is that Scottish Gaelic still has it in intervocalic position within simple words, and in final position, although this does vary dialectally.

On the other hand, the Connaught and Ulster dialects of Irish still have an ALVEOLAR stop for final -dh in imperative, conditional, past habitual and past subjunctive verb flexions followed immediately by pronouns with initial s- [§]. This originated as a sandhi substitute for the voiced dental fricative, before dh fell together with gh as a voiced velar fricative.

bhíodh = [v´i:x], [v´i:f], [v´i:uwh], [v´i:u:]

bhíodh sé = [v´i:t§e], [v´i:d§e:]

cheannódh; cheannóchadh = [çæ:No:x], [çæNo:f]; [çæNah@u]

cheannódh sé; cheannóchadh sé = [çæ:No:t§e], [çæNo:d§e:]; [çæNah@d§e:]

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 06:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh! By the way, could anyone tell me whether the word 'cnoc' as also pronounced /krok/ (with an r instead of the n) in Gaeilge, as in most dialects of Scottish Gaelic?

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 402
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 06:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

In a certain dialect they pronounce:

cnoc
mná

as:

croc
mrá


Can't remember which dialect that is though, maybe Munster. . . ?

Everywhere else though, we pronounce that n as an n.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 596
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 09:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Can't remember which dialect that is though, maybe Munster. . . ?

It's the complete opposite! :-) In Munster, the pronunication is cnoc [knuk] and mna [mra:]. In both Connacht and Ulster it's [krok] and [mra:]. (Some Connacht dialects will of course use [kruk] while some Ulster ones will use [mre:] - but the retention of "n" is a Munster phenomena.)

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 598
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry for the typo, it should of course be :
... In Munster, the pronunication is cnoc [knuk] and mná [mna:]. ...

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'djæks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.157
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 03:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Stephan if you want the chapter leave your email on the board.

From T.F. O'Rahilly 'Irish Dialects Past and Present':

"In the combinations cn gn mn tn Northern Irish has substituted a nasalised r for n, while Southern Irish retains the n" (p.22)

"...but in Scottish speech it is always, or nearly always, pronounced as r. Manx knows only r since the first Manx book was printed in 1707, e.g. it has craid (Ir.Sc. cnáid), cronk (Ir.Sc. cnoc), mraane (Ir. mná, Sc. mnathan (Ibid, 22)

"This change of n to r is undoubtedly a comparatively late one…e.g. ‘Owen atnaght’ (Donegal 1603) for Eóghan an tsneachta…’Knochor’ for Cnochúr (Armagh, 1602)…” (Ibid, 22).

“…guttural spirant (gh)…The guttural spirant sound has been preserved in every dialect initially, i.e. as the lenited form of d- and g-, but in other positions it has, as a rule, long since disappeared from speech, being usually vocalised, but sometimes replaced by other consonants.”

In Ulster and N. Meath, on the other hand, stressed a when followed by gha, as in adharc, ladhar, tagha (< togha), was first raised in anticipation of the following guttural, and then lengthened when the gha disappeared. The resultant long vowel is of a somewhat unstable character, being liable to vary in different districts or among different speakers in the same district. Generally it is either a mid-mixed vowel, E: (identical with S. Ir. ao, p. 27), or a retracted form of the same [lengthened form of u in standard English gun] (cf. Argyll ao). Sometimes, however, it is raised towards the high-back position, and is pronounced either as an unrounded ū[Peadars Y above) (Peadars Y identical with Ulster ao) or as a slightly lowered form of the same (p. 179).
When followed immediately by a consonant, as in Adhmad, adhbhar, Maghnas, historic agh (adh) usually gives á in Donegal as in Connacht (ámad, (ábhar, Mánas). But in parts of Ulster agh + consonant is treated like agh + vowel; compare spellings like faobhthaidh (S. E. Ulster MSS.) for fadhbhtha, aoraighmuid (Monaghan text) for adhramaoid. Further evidence is afforded by, the forename Maghnas and the surname Ó Gadhra (>Ó Gára in Sligo), which must have been pronounced with E: or [snail symbol] when introduced into Munster from S. Ulster or N. E. Connacht, not later than the sixteenth century, for the Munster forms are Maeunas, Ó Gaeura (anglicised ' Geary '), with E:.
In Scottish, when agh is followed by a vowel, as in adharc, ladhar, aghaidh, tagha, the a is raised to [snail] (the short form of Argyll ao p. 29) in Scotland generally,' the gh being sometimes pronounced, and sometimes silent (but without coalescence of the syllables). When agh is followed by a consonant the gh disappears with corripensatory lengthening of the vowel, resulting in [lengthened form of u in standard English gun]. In this case agh is generally replaced in current Scottish spelling by ao, which suits Argyll Gaelic well, but is misleading for the northern dialects, in which historical ao is pronounced [Peadars Y] (p. 29). Thus Scottish spelling has ao in place of historical adh or agh in words like the following : aoradh, blaom, faob, Raonall, aobhar (p. 180).

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 51
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Just something: gh is pronounced as a stop in Scots Gaelic at the end of words. I don't think they do at the beginning of a word. I'd say that pronouncing gh as /g/ at the beginning of a word is mainly an English-speaker mistake.
Never heard that except in the speech of learners whose first language was English.

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 07:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jaeks,
I would be very interested indeed in having the reference of what you quoted. You may email me at sb.wilhelm@tele2.fr
Many thanks

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 603
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 07:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It's from the book Irish Dialects by professor Thomas O'Rahilly, one of the standard references within Irish dialectology. It's published by DIAS and you'll find all the details here:

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-10.html

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 15
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks a lot, Jonas. The least that can be said is that Irish people live up to their reputation for kindness and hospitality, even on a website.
Céad míle buíochas romhat.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 892
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Féach sin, a Jonas. Duine dinn fhéin thú!

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 04:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Just one more thing in connection with AO.

T.F. O'Rahilly (quoted by Peadar) assimilates the Ulster vowel corresponding to this spelling to a sound represented by an INVERTED [y] ([ÿ:]). Ronald Black, in is Scottish Gaelic manual, 'Cothrom Ionnsachaidh', also has this symbol to represent the realisation of AO (not surprising I think, as I suppose the Ulster dialects are nearest to Scots Gaelic). But the conventional phonetic chart for vowels does not include this symbol (see for instance http://members.tripod.com/Caroline_Bowen/ipavowels.htm), and an inverted y normally is used to represent a CONSONANT: the palatal lateral approximant (see the consonant chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet#Chart , for instance.

Does anyone have the key to this mystery?

And would you say O'Rahilly's inverted [y:] is the same as unrounded [u:]- that is, the sound normally represented by two attached [u]s + : (or rounded [w:], that is, SAMPA M) in classic phonetic representation, or is it something different?

To complicate matters further, Malcolm McLennan in his 'Faclair Gàidhlig', represents the realisation of typographic AO with slashed 'o': (lengthened SAMPA 2) or [y:] which both represent FRONTED vowels (the second being almost totally closed - it nearly corresponds to the French vowel of 'la rue' or 'un mur'. This may well be the case for some dialects of Gàidhlig (does anyone confirm this?). And would you say it is the same for some varieties of Gaeilge?

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 103
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 05:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"...an INVERTED [y]...to represent the realisation of AO...an inverted y normally is used to represent a CONSONANT: the palatal lateral...Does anyone have the key to this mystery?"

Well, yeah: the former is an upside-down y and the latter is a backwards λ.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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'jaeks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.52
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 08:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Stephan,
I think Jonas has answered your question on reference.

Lughaidh,
if your post about /g/ refers to the transcript from O'Rahilly where he goes "...lenited form of d- and g-..." it looks like a statement from the point of view of the written word, i.e. gall [gal] becoming ghall [(velar fricative) al] or similarly dá becoming dhá, with the initial phoneme having the same sound.

The IPA chart here: http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/c hapter1/chapter1.html has two forms of g a 'g' and a 'G'. I will assume till it is clarified that the first is the g mostly used in Irish as a broad g. That would make it a 'velar plosive' as compared to the velar fricative of /gh/. I'm going on the chart and assume it reflects a change in how the organs of speech deals with where in the mouth the sound is produced, but I'm no phonologist or linguist.

Peadar,
you have many posts with phonetic symbols working. Do you know what resources are available to make these symbols work?, as there is 10 IPA sets operating in my copy of Word, yet a few symbols do not show up on websites and will not cut and paste into this window, such as the velar fricative symbol. Thanks.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 60
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The small capital letter G in phonetics is a sound that is found in languages like Persian, it’s a throat sound that isn’t found in European languages.

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'jaeks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.214
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,
thanx.

The link above worked from cache, but regretably the flash on the website does not now.

This part of the site, if it links, has a quirky little program that runs thru the cathegories of consonants one finds in the IPA.

http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/c hapter1/ipa3.html

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 107
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 04:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>gall [gal] becoming ghall [(velar fricative) al]<

If one distinguishes the tense, long, unlenited, dental [L] (which caused diphtongization of the preceding vowel in Munster and Scotland, and vowel lengthening in Galway) from the lax, short or lenited, alveolar [l], the customary transcription of "gall" and "ghall" is [gaL], [γaL]. The Lárchanúint model really ought to show, explain and recommend such distinctions:

Lax/lenited:
l, l´, n, n´

Tense/unlenited:
L, L´, N, N´

>similarly dá becoming dhá, with the initial phoneme having the same sound.<

In Old Irish the lenited form of [d] was, of course, [δ] ([ð]), a voiced interdental fricative, which later fell together with [γ].

>Do you know what resources are available to make these symbols work?<

I've been experimenting these last few days myself, and finding out what works for posting here and what doesn't.

For Greek letters I toggle to the Windows Greek keyboard layout, and press the d key for δ (delta), the g key for γ (gamma), the l key for λ (lambda).

I was using the "section" symbol § (Alt+0167) for the "slender s" phoneme, but have now started using ∫ from the "Mathematical Operators" set in the Symbols menu in Word 97, as well as ŋ from the "Latin Extended-A" set.

At my friend's office where I do some of my posting, the schwa from "IPA Extensions" in the Symbols menu is displayed properly on that computer if I use it in this forum, but my computer at home shows a rectangle instead, even if I paste a schwa from one of the IPA fonts that I've downloaded; so I use the Russian э instead, since whatever works on both of the computers that I use (one with Windows XP and the other with Windows 98) probably works on most people's screens. Maybe Unicode has something more coherent for us to use by now; I'll have to look into it after I do the two translations that were due yesterday, and the two that are due today, and my laundry and stuff.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 108
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>...have now started using ∫ ... use the Russian э...<

Thus:

"([sI:эl] saoghal, gin. [si:l´] saoghail)."

"a' Ghàidhlig [э γa:lig´] '(the) Gaelic,' a' ghrian [э γriaN] 'the sun,' cha do ghoid mi [xa Dэ γöd∫ mi] 'I did not steal.'"

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on February 08, 2005)

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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'djaeks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.189
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 09:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes I agree the ‘pocket word’ when it says it gives broad transcriptions it is not joking.

I recall when one sees double l, n, or r as in ll, nn, or rr in writing, one is talking about the tensed form, most of which are ignored by the aforementioned. Also it ignores much of (if I’m correct) w-glides at beginning of words with a broad initialising consonant and two proceeding vowels such as caol or gael which are so often go something like [kwe:l] or [gwe:l], at least to my ear, and in foclóir póca are given as [ki:l] and [ge:l].

The books from DIAS are good in that transcriptions of speech are given, and are a starting point for better pronunciation. What is really good is that some of them give details of sandhi and other features that are a result real babbling speech. I think it gives one a taste of the scope there is in speech.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 68
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"a' Ghàidhlig" > deirfinn gur [э γa:l’ik´] atá ann.


"a' ghrian" > [э γ’r’i.эn] dar liom

>Yes I agree the ‘pocket word’ when it says it gives broad transcriptions it is not joking.

It gives phonological transcription, not phonetic ones, that’s why it’s that imprecise. In phonology, every symbol represents a group of possible variations. For example if there are many -sounds in a language but if the meaning of the words don't change if you put one of these e-sounds instead of another, they aren't "phonems" so all of them can be represented by the same symbol. In phonetics it's more precise, you write exaclty the sounds you hear (which means that you can get slightly different pronounciations for the same word by the same person).

>I recall when one sees double l, n, or r as in ll, nn, or rr in writing, one is talking about the tensed form, most of which are ignored by the aforementioned.

Yeah, it’s a pity because Connaught and Ulster dialects make clear distinction between single and double consonants. Only Munster Irish doesn’t and has only l/l’, r/r’, n/n’.

>Also it ignores much of (if I’m correct) w-glides at beginning of words with a broad initialising consonant and two proceeding vowels such as caol or gael which are so often go something like [kwe:l] or [gwe:l], at least to my ear, and in foclóir póca are given as [ki:l] and [ge:l].

Actually it’s not a w- glide in these cases. Broad consonants have γ- glides (= velarized consonants) for all consonants except the labial ones (b, m, p, f, bh, mh, ph), that have the w-glides then. So [kγi:l], [gγe:l], [nγi:] (naoi)... but [bwi:l] (baol), [fwi:] (faoi), [mwi:] (maoth)...

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 110
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>"a' Ghàidhlig" > deirfinn gur [э γa:l’ik´] atá ann..."a' ghrian" > [э γ’r’i.эn] dar liom<

I knew that would catch somebody's attention. Those examples are from "The Gaelic of Arran." I'm not at home right now, but this evening I'll look up Holmer's explanation of the sounds in question and the justification for his system of transcription.

>Actually it’s not a w- glide in these cases. Broad consonants have γ- glides...<

Some of the dialect studies devote a page or two to a detailed description of the various glides, explaining that a narrower phonetic transcription would use superscript e and i for front glides, and schwa, o and w for back glides. Since that would be too cumbersome for extended texts, it's not done, but one has to understand that the glides are there, and are implied by what is shown in spelling and in phonemic or broad phonetic transcription.

So [k(o)i:(э)l], [g(o)e:(э)l], [N(э)i:] (naoi)... but [b(w)i:(э)l] (baol), [f(w)i:] (faoi), [m(w)i:] (maoth)...

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Jonas
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Post Number: 627
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

this evening I'll look up Holmer's explanation of the sounds in question and the justification for his system of transcription

You'll be tearing you're hair off :-) Most books (well, sort of) on Gaelic dialects I've seen never miss the opportunity to state how utterly worthless Holmer's transcriptions are. :-)

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'djaeks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.86
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh
merci pour le explaination on differences between phonetics and phonology. I was aware of both tags, but not on their difference. My cerebral scribes are updating the neural database as we speak...

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

You won't find many books on Irish that give a real phonetic transcription of a text. Wagner's linguistic atlas provides kinda, but as in phonology, he doesn't write the velarizations nor bilabializations (>broad consonants). But it can be said that if it were in real phonetics, with every feature of every sound, it'd be quite complicated and hard to read : every palatalization, every velarization and bilabialization symbol, every dental symbol for t, d and double n and l, the place every vowel is pronounced etc etc. I could give you a sample of what it would look here, but most phonetic symbols can't be read (you'd get loads of small squares). A font like Arial Unicode MS or Lucida Sans Unicode is needed for that, the one that's used on these forums doesn't have many phonetic symbols available.

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'djaeks
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Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,
indeed Arial Unicode MS or Lucida Sans Unicode is needed. I wonder would Daltaí change their settings to make it possible? Perhaps I ask.

I can imagine that reading a code that featured information on temporal realtions between sounds, exact phonemes, sandhi....the whole works of all a linguist could muster would be excessive. What i'd like is to ahve a script always a little beyond my pronounication ability so as to keep honing the speech, keep having something to test. When the basics are mastered, it provides a good base. Perhaps the further on enjoy the speaking and honing of the idiom, which is natural as speech is so community important.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 112
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 06:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>how utterly worthless Holmer's transcriptions are.<

I'm sure they're worthless to those who don't know how to read them and don't bother to learn, just as musical notation is worthless to those who can't even be bothered to learn to read time signatures, note values and rests. "The Gaelic of Arran" devotes 38 pages to PHONOLOGY and 46 pages to a HISTORICAL RETROSPECT OF THE SOUNDS, followed by 71 pages on ACCIDENCE, and then come the 32 pages of TEXTS, and finally the glossary and index. "Gaelic Without Groans" it's not.
__________

“There are no less than ten liquid sounds in Arran Gaelic: seven l-sounds and three r-sounds; six are voiced and four are voiceless. They may best be arranged according to the place of articulation, as follows: dental (L with the variant L), alveolars (ł, ł, l, l, r, r) and palatals (l´, l´, r´)...

...To form l, which is also a voiced, alveolar liquid, the tip of the tongue is made to gently touch the alveolar ridge, leaving the passage free on either side, but the back and middle part of the tongue is raised toward the palate. The sound thus arising is the same as the common l-sound in most parts of Scotland (except the big towns), or the French l. In Arran it is heard in English words like ‘lute’ [lut], which thus differ in pronunciation from words of the same type in England. Commonly a neutral ‘l’ is used for either ł or l (which is at the same time the ‘l’ in ‘girl’ [g´εrl], ‘call’ [kò:l], etc. in the local English pronunciation). Thus, [Mrs. Picken of Sliddery] pronounces leam [lom] ‘with me’ (usually [lam]) and lom [lom] ‘bare’ ([łom]) in the same way. E.g. mo leabhar [mэ lo·эr] ‘my book,’ fhliuch [lux] ‘wet’ (asp., cf. luch [łux] ‘a mouse’), muileann [mulэN] ‘a mill,’ cùil [ku:l] ‘nook’ (cf. cùl [ku:ł] ‘back’)...

r — This is a voiced, alveolar liquid (usually called a ‘trill’), which is identical with the common Scottish r-sound. It is usually a quite gently trilled sound...the front and middle part of the tongue is raised toward the palate as for l. E.g. rathad [rε·эD] ‘road,’ ‘way,’ trì [Tri:] ‘three,’ crìonna [kri:N] ‘small,’ biorach [birax] ‘pointed,’ bòrd [bò:rD] ‘table,’ cur [kur] ([kur]) ‘sowing.’
...
r´ — It is only a few speakers who use this sound...but the great majority of Gaelic speakers in Arran use a plain [r], as the case is all over Kintyre.”

— Nils Holmer, “The Gaelic of Arran”

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Jonas
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Post Number: 630
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 06:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm sure they're worthless to those who don't know how to read them and don't bother to learn, just as musical notation is worthless to those who can't even be bothered to learn to read time signatures, note values and rests. "The Gaelic of Arran" devotes 38 pages to PHONOLOGY and 46 pages to a HISTORICAL RETROSPECT OF THE SOUNDS, followed by 71 pages on ACCIDENCE, and then come the 32 pages of TEXTS, and finally the glossary and index. "Gaelic Without Groans" it's not.

Actually, the criticism has been exactly the opposite. Those who have complained about its uselesness all are professors of Celtic linguistics or, at the very least, have a Ph.D in that subject. I have Holmer's book myself and I've found it quite helpful at times, but obviously those with a deeper understanding of phonetics despise it. I can check out the exact criticism, I have it in some other book at home.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Post Number: 113
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 07:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>I can check out the exact criticism<

Okay.

>all are professors of Celtic linguistics<

But do they know that much about those dialects?

I saw some paper whose author referred to "Gaeilge Theilinn" and complained that Wagner didn't show where the stress was in a particular word. The complainer hadn't bothered to read the paragraph on page xv that begins:

· ar lorg guthaidhe = marc an bhéim gotha (stress), m.sh. эni·∫ anois, эri:·∫t´ aríst.

Anyway, I only know that I know a whole lot less than Holmer about the Gaelic of Arran and Kintyre, and I'll know a lot more about it after I read those books than I do know.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Jonas
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Post Number: 634
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Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I quote from the introduction to The Phonemic Analysis of Scottish Gaelic, the part dealing with earlier research on Gaelic dialects.

In spite of a reasonable, although by no means sufficient, number of descriptions of Sc.G. dialects, there are only two that include a comprehensive phonemic analysis of the dialects in question: Oftedal (1956) and Dorian (1965).
-snap-
Unfortunately, Borgström did not subject his volumnoius material to a thorough phonemic analysis. "The transcription is admittedly phonetic and not phonological." (Borgström 1940:10) But because of the comprehensiveness of the material, the accuracy of the phonetic data and the meticulous phonetic descriptions, Borgström (1937, 1940, 1941) are most valuable sources that cannot be dispensed with.
-snap-
On the other hand, Holmer's writing will in general not be taken into consideration because of their disorganized, indeed "prescientific" (Ó Murchú) nature. Especially from a phonemic point of view, his works are well-nigh worthless. For a detailed criticism see Ó Murchú(1969). In addition to Oftedal, Dorian and Borgström, further references will be made to a number of other works on Sc.G. dialects, including some on Irish dialects.

(End of the quote)

>all are professors of Celtic linguistics<

But do they know that much about those dialects?


I don't know them and cannot answer that one. I know that Holmer, who by the way worked at the same university as some of my friends, wasn't an expert on the dialect. He wasn't even a professor in any Celtic language. I myself do find his books useful (more so than I find The Phonemic Analysis of Scottish Gaelic) but I do think that the experts in this area are better suited than I to speak about the academic qualities of his works.

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'djaeks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.16
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Peadar,

"[mэ lo·эr]
m.sh. эni·∫ anois, эri:·∫t´ aríst"

is the little dot diacritic a stress marking?

Also, do you type in the texts or scan them? When I sent in a post that contained excerpts from the next few pages on from a sample you provided above (on ao in Ulster) it was scanned in. If you get old scanning OCR software that does not have a dictionary of English in it, you can with a little tidying up get a perfect copy. New software will just change all. Just a labour saving idea.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Post Number: 114
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>I saw some paper<

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c23/c23-113.pdf

>whose author<

A. J. HUGHES

>referred to "Gaeilge Theilinn" and complained that Wagner didn't show where the stress was in a particular word.<

poll deataigh [pïL´æ·ti]

Footnote 30: "...Stress was not indicated here by Wagner but it is doubtful, in the light of genitival deataigh, if one can regard poll deataigh as a compound noun (comhfhocal) and one would imagine..."

>is the little dot diacritic a stress marking?<

As Wagner used it, yes:

· ar lorg guthaidhe = marc an bhéim gotha (stress), m.sh. эni·∫ anois, эri:·∫t´ aríst.<

In other people's works it usually doesn't refer to stress but indicates that a vowel is half long: [ta: se·] is intermediate between [ta: se] and [ta: se:]. A.J. Hughes incorrectly assumed Wagner was using it that way. That's the sort of thing that can happen if one just browses or looks up the odd word in such a book. To get the full benefit of any of the dialect studies, you have to read every word. Don't skip the first chapters because "oh, I already know all that stuff."

>Also, do you type in the texts or scan them?<

I type 'em. If I wanted to post twenty pages of O'Rahilly in one sitting, I guess maybe I'd have the sense to scan them. Or not. Typing practice is good for my humble piping and fiddling too, you know...but thanks for the suggestion.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Post Number: 116
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Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>is the little dot diacritic a stress marking?<
>As Wagner used it, yes<

Not in Holmer's work, though. In "The Gaelic of Arran" he used it for an intervocalic glottal stop, which some Scottish Gaelic dialects do have instead of a glide or a fricative or a hiatus in certain words.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.243
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Peadar,

(from memory) I see the tilde thru the l (just reformatted, have no IPA fonts yet). On the IPA chart (such as this one: http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/fullchart.html) one sees such a symbol under diacritics. It is listed as 'velarised or pharyngealised' with a struck thru l.

Is this just for the l? What I mean is that are the diacritics part of a cathegory set that one can apply to a range of consonants (not all but a range of applicable ones)?

I say this as in the foclóir póca b, d, f, l, m, n, p, r, s, t, z are all 'tilded' in the 'broad mode' so to say. Is there a connexion specific between them? I checked other posts and many labial consonants cross reference (b, m, p, f, bh, mh, ph). Relevant? Its the only place I seen so many tildes. Perhaps its part of an/the old IPA standard pre 1993.

As I have been pointed out, FocPoc uses broad (adjective: phonologic/al?) transcriptions so they could be been wide once again and not been too particualar, but they ahve to cluster somewhere to be useful.

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 30
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 08:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

What! Is it acknowledged that some Scottish Gaelic dialects have a glottal stop instead of a fricative in intervocalic positions? A Pheadair, could you tell me a bit more about that (and quote the reference if possible)?...

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Post Number: 118
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Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 02:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, there’s a medial glottal stop in many words in some Scottish Gaelic dialects. That’s very different from such cacophonic and misguided pronunciations as [∫g´e:lэ • э • a:l´], which one hears used (instead of [∫g´e:l a:l´] ‘scéala a fháil’) by many learners of Irish and, unfortunately, sometimes by native speakers who have let themselves be convinced that they’re doing people a favor by breaking their own Irish to pieces for the sake of “clarity” or “correctness.”
__________

«In Scottish Gaelic, hiatus occurs not only where it may be expected from an historical point of view (cf. Old Ir. cride, Ir. kri:, Sc. Gael. k'r'i-e), but also in many words where there is a tendency to cut a vowel or a diphthong into two sections, separated by some sort of a glottal stop and giving the impression of a disyllabic pronunciation. Many examples of this kind can be found in our material (e.g. mu-ix'k' ... cf. Irish mwik'). In Scottish Gaelic hiatus is, therefore, not only a feature which is to be explained historically, but also a synchronic phenomenon, the geographical distribution of which may be significant.»

— Heinrich Wagner
http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-7-4.html
__________

«Grannd correctly identifies the pronunciation of "a" as "e" in the presence of a nasal consonant as being among the hallmarks of the Islay dialect - as it is of Colonsay as well. Those of us who learned our Gaelic in Colonsay are well used to having our legs pulled for pronouncing math (good) as "meh". But he fails to mention the use of the glottal stop before "r", "l" and "n", which most Gaelic-speakers would consider a prominent feature of Argyll dialects, and especially characteristic of Islay.»

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hotel/old1/cornb32.html
__________

«Colonsay Gaelic, as one might expect, shows many similarities to the Gaelic spoken in Islay, its closest neighbour. However, Colonsay's isolated position, and its links with other islands, notably Mull to the north, have meant that the Colonsay dialect has more of a Hebridean "feel" to it than Islay. Like Islay it makes much use of the glottal stop, that catch in the throat which is familiar to English speakers in the Glasgow or Cockney pronunciation of words like "bottle" or "city". In Colonsay and Islay Gaelic however, it occurs mainly when the letters 'l', 'n' or 'r' appear in the middle of a word, as in the Gaelic name of the island, Colbhasa (sometimes spelt without the silent "bh"), which is pronounced "Co'-la-sa".»

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hotel/old1/cornb5.html
__________

«Watson discusses what O’Rahilly coined as hiatus-filling h in ScG and Irish dialects, whereby original hiatus, and hiatus resulting from the vocalisation of original fricatives, is marked by the presence of a glottal fricative /h/. This is noted for some western mainland ScG dialects, such as Glengarry, and also for some Donegal Irish dialects, and a single explanation is put forward for both. Passing reference is also made to Nova Scotian dialects but no reference is made to Myles Dillon’s (1962) relevant study of the development of intervocalic h in the Irish of Cois Fhairrge, Co. Galway. The main question is whether or not h might arise naturally as a syllable boundary marker in such instances, just as the glottal stop may have developed in similar contexts. Watson rejects this and opts for a different solution, explaining hiatus-filling h as a form of hypercorrection arising as a direct result of the vocalisation of historical intervocalic h (< th), which he notes for East Ulster and certain of ‘the western mainland and south-west Scottish Gaelic dialects’ (p. 377). In other words, a dialect which developed variation between /bεhэ/ and /bε-э/ (beatha), through loss of historical h, would extend such variation by hypercorrection to instances of hiatus (irrespective of origin), thus giving variation between the likes of /Ra-эd/ and /Rahэd/ (rathad with historical hiatus), /N´i-эn/ and /N´ihэn/ (nighean with hiatus arising from the vocalisation of historical gh), and so on. Watson, therefore, sees this development as ultimately an intradialectal rather than an interdialectal phenomenon, i.e. that it occurred originally in dialects which had begun to lose historical intervocalic h. The suggestion is a plausible one and one which can easily be checked against the monograph sources, and especially SGDS, which was published subsequent to Watson’s article being written.»

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c24/c24-306-330.pdf

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Post Number: 120
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 05:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

džæks

Microsoft Word 97 > Insert > Symbol > Latin Extended-A > ł

As in “Lech Wałęsa.”

The phonetic transcription in “Scottish Gaelic in Three Months” uses the squiggly ~ thing to mark all the broad liquids: l, n and r. I suppose it would be used for a number of other velarized consonants if one were dealing with a language that had a three-way contrast among palatalized, neutral, and velarized sounds, or something like that.

In this article
http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~odden/IntroducingPhonology/ch2last.pdf
I found a p with a squiggle through it, in reference to Marshallese.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.220.167
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 09:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Peadar,
"I suppose it would be used for a number of other velarized consonants if one were dealing with a language that had a three-way contrast among palatalized, neutral, and velarized sounds..."

Well with the influence of English, could we begin to see a) as well as palatalized and velarized consonants, the emergence of many neutral ones too in Irish b) the polarisation collapse into generally neutral consonants accross the langue in the next few decades?

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Post Number: 136
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, we could see Irish finished off.

Peadar Ó Gríofa



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