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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 09, 2005 » Gaeilge agus Gàidhlig « Previous Next »

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 05:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello,

Being engaged in the composition of an MA research paper on Irish civilisation and having chosen the Irish language as my topic, I wondered if someone should accept to provide me with answers to the following questions: (Forgive me for asking so many, the more so as you will certainly find them ridiculously basic.)

1. I have read that Irish had approximately 50 sounds in its phonetic inventory. My impression was that this was less than for Scottish Gaelic could someone confirm this and in that case, may I ask how this is to be accounted for (the answer is likely to be all the more interesting as, if my sources are correct, Scottish Gaelic actually developed out of Old Irish)

2. I know that one particular feature of Scottish Gaelic is inversion, according to which ‘I would like to speak Gaelic’ becomes

Bu toil leam Gàidhlig a bhruidhinn. Does this grammatical peculiarity also exist in Irish and if so, may I ask you to explain to me the rules that govern it?

3. The notion of colours in Scottish Gaelic is clearly different from that which exists in the English language, with

1) The spectrum being divided quite differently from the way it is in English:
· ruadh occupying the range of spectrum from deep yellow through orange to russet,
· dearg being the colour of blood, fire and human complexion and skin alike
· lachdann and odhar being also used to describe human skin (with somewhat unpleasant connotations for the first)
· buidhe occupying spectrum between ruadh and fair
· glas designating not only green but also grey items
· gorm used to describe healthy growing grass (while Welsh glas would be used there)

2) A great number of pigment terms existing as a result of the importance of livestock in the Scottish Gaelic economy:
· ciar being used for dark grey skin or hide
· riabhach for streaked hides with dark shades
· cròn for dark brown hides or skins
· dearg, lachdann, breac being alternative terms

3) Some colours having clear metaphorical connotation (dubh and riabhach – sinister, dearg – pejorative, buidhe – lucky in ‘buidhe dhut!’, geal – charming donn – noble) and others none (uaine etc.)

Does the same phenomenon exist in Irish also and do all the above terms have close equivalents in Irish?

(I am sorry to ask you so many questions calling for long and time-consuming answers, but maybe you could direct me to a website or to books treating of these aspects of the Irish tongue.)

4. Many names exist in Scottish Gaelic to designate hills and mountains according to their shapes: aonach, beinn bràigh, càrn, cnoc, creag, druim, dun, leitir, meail, monadh, sgurr, stuc, torr, tulach. Do all these terms have Irish equivalents (perhaps in Connaught, Kerry or North West Ireland?)

5. Traditional Scottish Gaelic being based on twenties, ‘twenty’ is seen as ‘twenty ten’ etc, giving 30 deich air fhichead, 31 aon deug air fhichead etc.

Is it the same in Irish Gaelic?

6. Scottish Gaelic makes use of a dual form, with dà being followed by SINGULAR, lenited nouns.
Once again, is it the same in Irish Gaelic?

I would be extremely grateful for any amount of help you could provide me with. Again, I would be satisfied if you merely directed me to websites or books treating of these aspects of the Irish tongue… but I admit I have not found satisfactory answers to these questions by browsing the web up to now.

7. (Lastly, could you direct me to a site where I can find the Gaelic names of musical instruments)

Céad míle buíochas for whatever amount of help you should accept to provide me with.

With sincere regards,

Stephan WILHELM, FRANCE

Stephan WILHELM
1 IMPASSE DE LA FONTAINE VIOLAINE
59600 MAUBEUGE

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 869
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 06:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Stephan,

since Gaidhlig and Gaeilge share a common root, most of these features are also present in Irish.

However, a lot of the information on the web on Irish is in Irish. Can you read Irish?
You might try http://www.braesicke.de/gramadac.htm (German, with a link to an english translation of an older version)
http://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~green/gaeilge/gaeilge.htm

You will find a lot of terminology Irish<->English
at http://www.acmhainn.ie - that should get you the musical instruments

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Stephan_wilhelm
Member
Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 07:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dear Aonghus,

Thank you very much indeed for the valuable information you posted.
Unfortunately, I cannot read Irish. I have been teaching myself Welsh for a couple of years and I started to learn Scottish Gaelic two years ago (but I find it a lot more difficult than Welsh). I would like to acquire the basics of Irish, and the choice of this topic for my RP is really an occasion I wanted not to let go to acquire some rudiments of Gaeilge.
Many thanks for your kind post. I'll turn straight to the sites you mentioned.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 871
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 07:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fáilte romhat.

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 396
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

2. I know that one particular feature of Scottish Gaelic is inversion, according to which ‘I would like to speak Gaelic’ becomes

Bu toil leam Gàidhlig a bhruidhinn. Does this grammatical peculiarity also exist in Irish and if so, may I ask you to explain to me the rules that govern it?



That's how indirect speech works:

Close the door.
Dún an doras.

He told me to close the door.
Dúirt sé liom an doras a dhúnadh.

Simply the noun preceeds the verb. You get used to it in no time.

quote:

3) Some colours having clear metaphorical connotation (dubh and riabhach – sinister, dearg – pejorative, buidhe – lucky in ‘buidhe dhut!’, geal – charming donn – noble) and others none (uaine etc.)

Does the same phenomenon exist in Irish also and do all the above terms have close equivalents in Irish?



Yes, eg. we use "dearg" as a prefix:

hatred = fuath

intense hatred = deargfhuath

quote:

4. Many names exist in Scottish Gaelic to designate hills and mountains according to their shapes: aonach, beinn bràigh, càrn, cnoc, creag, druim, dun, leitir, meail, monadh, sgurr, stuc, torr, tulach. Do all these terms have Irish equivalents (perhaps in Connaught, Kerry or North West Ireland?)



I recognize a few of the above as having a very close Irish word.

quote:

5. Traditional Scottish Gaelic being based on twenties, ‘twenty’ is seen as ‘twenty ten’ etc, giving 30 deich air fhichead, 31 aon deug air fhichead etc.

Is it the same in Irish Gaelic?



You'll hear some people say they're sixty as:

trí scór

literally: three score (score = twenty)

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Breacban
Member
Username: Breacban

Post Number: 46
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 08:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i dont have much knowledge of irish grammar so i can stand to be corrected. if i was to tentaitivley translate your phrase into modern irish i would first think "Bu toil leam Gàidhlig a bhruidhinn" bu= ba, toil = toil (will), leam= liom (with me), gaidhlig= gaeilge (gaelic), a =a (to) bhruidhinn = labhart, ra? (speak). so in gaedlaig most of your sentence makes sense to me to read, however i wouldnt know what "bhruidhinn" means and if spoken i would find it very difficult to see the words through the accent. in irish we would say "ba maith liom an gaeilge a labhart".

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 397
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 08:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

"ba maith liom an gaeilge a labhart"



In pidgin Irish, perhaps.

Ba mhaith liom an Ghaeilge a labhairt.

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Stephan_wilhelm
Member
Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks to you all. Very useful and instructive

Stephan

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 872
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 08:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

In pidgin Irish, perhaps



Ní gá bheith míbhéasach, a FnaB. Scríobhann breacban mar a chloiseann sé an Ghaeilge - tá fhios aige nach bhfuil sí foirfe aige.

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Breacban
Member
Username: Breacban

Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fear na mbróg, I might have been more impressed if you could have told me what "bhruidhinn" meant. Still theres still time to consult your dictionary.

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Diarmo
Member
Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Bruidhinn=speak in Gaidhlig
Bruion=group in Gaeilge

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Stephan_wilhelm
Member
Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, thanks to you all for taking the trouble to reply in as detailed a manner as you have up to now. It is very useful and instructive. If anyone should have any further information, it would be highly welcome.

By the way, could anyone confirm to me that Gaeilge does not have the unrounded [u:] vowel which frequently corresponds to the realisation of the (typographic) "ao" sequence in Gaidhlig.

I also feel that voiced velar fricative consonants (the consonant sound at the beginning of dhoras in "dha dhoras") are a bit different in Gaeilge from what they sound like in Ghaidlig. Could anybody tell me if they feel I am right here.

Many thanks again.

Stephan

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 877
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

bruíon [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
troid, comhrac, achrann.

Ó Mac Bain http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb05.html#bruidheann

bruidheann, bruidhinn
talk, conversation, Irish bruíghinn, scolding speech, a brawl (also bruitheann), Old Irish fris-brudi, renuit, Welsh cyfrau, song, Old Breton co-brouol, verbialia, *mru, say; Sanskrit brû, bravati, says, Zend mrû, speak. O'Grady (S. Gad. xvi.) connects Early Irish brudin, hospitium; says meaning really is "quarrel". He gives Irish as bruidhen. Stokes Early Irish brudin, *brodìna, English board (Z. 33).

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Diarmo, I think you were mixed-up with Irish buíon = group and Scottish bruidhinn = to talk...

Actually Irish buíon corresponds to Scottish buidheann, and for bruidhinn, Aonghas has already answered above :)

Stephan, I can help u by mail and in french if u want. I did a MA dissertation on a comparison between scottish gaelic and ulster irish, so i may help u :)

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Stephan_wilhelm
Member
Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 7
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,

your comments will be very welcome indeed. In French if you like (if it gives you an opportunity to practise), but Engish is perfectly O.K as far as I am concerned. My email address is sb.wilhelm@tele2.fr
Many thanks for offering your help.
Stephan

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 880
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh is french, so I suspect french won't give him too much difficulty.

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Chinita
Member
Username: Chinita

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Actually Lughaidh is Breton, but he speaks French :)

This was all very interesting to read. It's funny how they don't offer a Bachelors in Irish Studies at the college in my area, but they offer a Minors Certificate, Masters, or Doctorate degree.

Christine

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Stephan_wilhelm
Member
Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 02:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dach chi'n siarad Cymraeg hefyd, Lughaidh?

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Jonas
Member
Username: Jonas

Post Number: 600
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dw i ddim yn gwybod, wrth gwrs, ond dw i'n siarad tipyn bach. Roeddwn i'n siarad yn rhugl pan roeddwn i'n ifanc, ond rhaid i mi ddweud y mod fi'n wedi anghofio llawn o'r iaith nawr.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 52
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ia 'hadik, Aonghas, me zo-mein Breton ha pas Gal, deustoh mard é ma skriùet ar me fapériaou.

Rw i'n siarad Cymraeg tipyn bach hefyd. Ond dw i ddim yn rhy-dda. Yr ieithoedd ydw i'n adnabod yn wella (?) yw Llydaweg a Gwyddeleg, a Gaelg yr Alban hefyd. Dw i ddim yn rhugl yn yr ieithoedd eraill.

En effet, j'ai pas tellement besoin de m'exercer en français ;)

(Message edited by Lughaidh on February 05, 2005)

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 891
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 06:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mo léithscéal, a Lughaidh, níl aon Briotánais agam. Thuig mé ó rud inteacht a dúirt tú ar ocáid eile gurbh í an Fhrancais do chéad teanga.

A ndearcainn Briotáinaigh orthu fhéin mar Francaigh agus Briotáinaigh?

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 54
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

’S í ’n Fhraincis mo theangaí mháthara leoga ach tá Briotáinis líofa agam fosta (thoisigh mé á foghlaim nuair a bhí mé sé déag, b’fhéidir, anois tá mé cúig bliana ’s fiche).

Maidir le barúil na mBriotánach faofa féin, braitheann sé ar an duine. Tá daoiní ann a deireas gur Francaigh iad, chan Briotánaigh (níl mórán acu ann), daoiní eile a deireas gur Briotánaigh iad go háiríd agus Francaigh fosta, daoiní eile gur Briotánaigh iad, chan Francaigh...

Deirim féin gur Briotánach mé agus ansin Francach, siocair go bhfuil an náisiúntacht Fhrancach agam ó rugadh mé, ach cha moithím gur Francach mé siocair gu s’iomaí duifear eadar mé féin agus bunadh na Fraince don chuid is mó, agus moithím nach bhfuill mé cosúil leofa ó thaobh a’ chultúir dó agus ó thaobh a’ mheoin dó, ó thaobh na smaoitithe dó srl.

Rud eile: de réir na mBriotáiniseoirí dúchais féin, is é an rud "Briotánach" duine a bhfuil Briotáinis aige - is Francaigh na daoiní eile go léir. Is dóigh liom go bhfuil an sainmhíniú sin ceart go leor. Is Briotánach duine a bhfuil seanchultúr na Briotáine aige, agus chan féidir an cultúr sin a bheith agat munab fhuil an teangaí agat. Agus tá ’n sainmhíniú sin níos cirte agus níos simplí fosta. ’S iomaí duine inniu a deireas gur Briotánach é siocair go bhfuil dúil aige ins an Bhriotáin nó i gceol na Briotáine, ach gan tilleadh eolais aige ar a’ chultúr, agus is dóigh liom nach bhfuil mórán céille leis sin: chan abróchadh Síneach gur Alabnach é ar an ábhar go bhfuil dúil aige i gceol na bpíob...

Ceist chasta atá ann agus tá mé ’meas go bhfuil barúil dhifriúil faoi sin aig achan duine sa tír seo...

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 893
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Maith go leor. Ní raibh sé ar intinn agam aon mhasla a thabhairt, agus tá súil agam nár dhein.

Tuigim go bhfuil cursaí féiniúlachta casta go maith.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2005 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá sé ceart go leor ;-)



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