the recent post which included information about Gaeilge speaking Travellers in Austin TX piqued my interest. I've been researching, and found Gaiman, the Welsh-speaking community in Patagonia.

I'm wondering the following, are there any active celtic or gaelic language speaking communities in the US, Canada, Australia, NZ or anyplace else in the world, outside of Western Europe? if so, where are they and what do they speak?

Gaidhlig in Nova Scotia - they have a website, but the server is down:

http://www.gaelic.net/novascotia/

go raibh maith agat...áiteanna eile?

The Travellers speak a language called Cant, Shelta or Gammon, which has many dialects, some close to Gaelic, some close to Romany.

The Gaelic Cant is said to be the remnants of the old Leinster Middle Irish dialect, which has developed over time under the influence of Romany into the language it is today.

Not quite true.

Cant is a delibrately composed language, intended to be secret from the "settled" community. Some words were formed by reversing Irish words; an example is

laicín - cailín - girl.

As far as I know, Romany influence on the irish travelling community is neglible - they are descended from Irish people who either always had nomadic trades, or were evicted.

yes, inlooking around today, and finding a comparitave lexicon of shelta (old) and cant (new)... I have come to the same conclusion about genesis of the language and backwards speaking...

The Irish Language Association of Australia is called "Cumann Gaeilge na hAstralie". We operate out of pretty much all capital cities and have done so for a number of years. Australia has quite a large portion of its original settlers being from Ireland so there is alot of Irish heritage in Australia. There are also alot of ex-pats here aswell. Our website is www.gaeilgesanastrail.com

okay...you sound perfect to sign off on Australia for me...

I'm trying to put together a collection of all the places in the world where there are celtic-speaking communities.

are there any places in australia that actually speak either irish or scottish as the language of every day operation (à la Gaiman, Argentina)?

Webster's Ninth defines gammon as " talk intended to deceive, humbug" . Maybe gammon and cant are the same thing - a madeup language of the travellers. By the way, the "Irish Travellers" in the US do not have a great reputation. Many are itinerant tradesmen known for fly-by-night home repair schemes. They seem to have clung to the old ways of their Irish cousins.

No sadly Antaine i dont think there are any places in Australia where people speak Irish/Scotts gaelic on a day to day basis (Although i wish there was!). But we have lessons and conversational classes twice a week and other gatherings most weeks(mainly at the pub)where pretty much Irish is all that is spoken. I can only speak for the Melbourne(city in south-eastern Australia) language group but there is a vibrant number of speakers/learners here and we gain new members every year, so the language is definitely growing.

(Message edited by antaine on February 01, 2005)

all i've got so far are welsh pockets in Gaiman, scottish pockets in earlton, pictou, scotsburn, and cape breton, (NS) and irish pockets in highlands and little silver (NJ)

other than that a smattering of irish and scottish throughout the US, Canada and Australia (and for some reason irish is popular in some circles in japan, where there are also a surprising number of uilleann pipers...)

One country you should definitely look into would be New Zealand. Besides being settled by the English the majority of New Zealand's immigrants were scottish and in relation to population the scots moved there in great numbers. Look into places like Dunedin, Invercargil, Wellington and Clyde.

will do. I'm wondering...what about areas of africa that had been english?

Im not really sure about those african ex-english colonies. I wouldnt there would have been to much migration there by anyone but the english but i could be wrong.

They kept speaking Scottish Gaelic in North Carolina until about a century ago. It's gone now, but listen to the English spoken by this guy from the Outer Banks:

http://www.ku.edu/~idea/northamerica/usa/northcarolina/northcarolina1.mp3

"Becoming Cold-hearted like the Gentiles Around Them": Scottish Gaelic in the United States 1872-1912

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol2/2_3/newton_2_3.html
www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol2/2_3/newton_2_3.pdf

There are some American irish and Scottish Travellers who still speak Irish or Gaelic as well as Gammon or Cant. I correspond with a Traveller friend from Chicago who calls himself the Oifig Faisne/is. Some believe their language may be descended from Be/arla na bhFili/. Certainkly the argument for a literate creation of Gammon or cant is arguable given their retention of aspirated consonants as in tobar, road, from bo/thar. There are six IT tribli/ in NYC. Three retain some Irish and Cant, three have lost much of it. ITs are the most Gaeilge dofheicthe.

NYC and Brooklyn had tens of thousands of Irish speakers 1830-1930. Especially along the East River and in the old downtown saol luim (slum) areas like Five Points. North Brooklyn parishes like St. Anthony of Padua and St. Cecelias had hundreds of Irish speaking families along the docks. Look in 1920 Federal census, you will be heartened and amazed at the numbers of Irish speakers. This is the simple source of so many NYC slang terms like moolah, samollions, jack, rush the growler, dukin' it out, etc. Their children retained the words, imperfectly pronounced, but still alive with the teas (heat) and piosa/ theas (pizzazz) of Irish.

Huck Finn uses terms like racket (raic ard), muggins (maca/n), sponduliks for money, whale (bhuail), hi'falutin (ui/ bhfolai/ocht a/n)and swcores more word/phrases that me be derived from Irish and Gaelic. Pike's County, Missouri, in 1840 and 1850 census had hundreds of Irish and Scottish immigrants. Twain himself had family from the north of Ireland. The lexical fingerprints of Irish and Gaelic are all across North America. From a Texas bocai/ rua (buckaroo) to NYC Tammany ward heeler (e/ilitheoir.)

A Pheadar, Mo Chara:

What's so strange about the way that guy from NC was speaking!??!! I understood every word just a plain as day! (Then again, he's from my "neck of the woods"!)

That accent is referred to around here as the "hoi toid" accent. The older natives really draw out the long "I" sound to give it an "oy" or "oi" sound. It's a bit of a running joke along the Carolina coast if a non-native of the outer banks trys to use it. We've always been taught that it is a hold over from the original english spoken by early colonists.

A bit of a history lesson may be necessary at this point:

One of the earliest attempts by england at colonization was initiated on Ocracoke Island, one of North Carolina's "Outer Banks." Their fleet of ships dropped them off and returned to england with all intentions of bringing supplies back to the colonists the following year. Unfortunately, the queen pressed all sailing vessels into military service and the colony was left to fend for itself. When the sponsors of the colony were finally able to mount a resupply effort, all they found was an abandoned camp and a tree with the name "Croatan" carved on it. Speculation is that the colonists fled to a neighboring island by that name or they went to live with a local indian tribe with that name. Whatever the case, they were never seen or heard from again and have become known as "The Lost Colony."

It is this latter theory that comes into play in the region of NC where I live which is much farther down the coast and farther inland. We have a group of people very insular to this area who refer to themselves as the Lumbee Indians. They claim that this union of colonists and native americans is part of their genetic lineage. Interestingly, these people have darker skin like a native american yet many have blue or green eyes like northern europeans. Their hair is coarser than european or indian hair but not as course as a native african. Genetically, they are a very interesting group.

Typical last names are "Locklear" and "Oxendine" which both have the sound of being corruption of "Loch" and "Och" or "Ach"...this may be a bit of a stretch, but worth mentioning none-the-less when you consider that this region was settled by none other than Flora MacDonald and her Scottish/Scotch Irish immigrants in the 1700's. So, the Scottish language link is solid and without question. The Lumbee indians undoubtedly engaged in at least a social, if not genetic association with these early european inhabitants.

Why is this so interesting to me? Well, the local indians speak with an accent identical to the man on the link you provided! So, it begs the question, are they both speaking english with a vestige of a gaelic mother tongue? Or, is this yet another link between the Lumbee and the "Lost Colony?"

Great link you provided...really has my mind working overtime now...thanks!!!

Le meas,

James

i have long been fascinated by the roanoke colony...and when i rattle off that history and the possible link with the natives of the area i get looked at like i have seven heads...

I found this part of one of your other links to be of particular interest...

"An Gàidheal continued to provide a forum for sharing traditional texts ..... The publication was promoted by agents around North America, including Lake Linden (Michigan), Chicago (Illinois), and Lumberton (North Carolina) (Dunn 1968: 79)."

Lumberton, NC is the tribal center for the Lumbee Indians whom I mentioned in my earlier post!

I'm also wondering if anyone could vouch for the butte, montana area...supposedly lots of irish settlement there in the 1800s

>From a Texas bocai/ rua (buckaroo)<

Sp. vaquero = cowboy

I suppose there are good Irish etymologies for the following too:

lasso
lariat
loco
rodeo
bronco
vamoose
vaminoose
hoosegow
calaboose

Texan lingo's got some good Irish expressions, all right, but "buckaroo" ain't one of 'em. Leastways, I don't reckon it is.

I listened to the Outer Banks speaker because a guy who used to live in North Carolina had told me they had an especially "strong" and interesting dialect out there. I listened for Scottish or Gaelic features in that recording, and I believe I heard some. His pronunciation of "stuff like that" and "shallow" is interesting, but the feature I find most salient is the diphthong in "house" (and "lighthouse"), "now," "sound," "trout" and "flounder."

>wondering if anyone could vouch for the butte, montana area<

Most assuredly:

http://www.butteamerica.com/birish.htm

And there's Cleveland:

http://clevelandmemory.org/irish/

http://www.irishecho.com/archives/archivestory.cfm?newspaperid=13451&issueid=318

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=14631

>the Scottish language link is solid and without question. The Lumbee Indians...<

"Chaidh na Gaidheil gu iomadh cheàrnaidh ann an Aimeireaga a Tuath agus chaidh mòran aca am measg nan Innseanach Ruadha. Phòs cuid aca bean Innseanach agus tha na h-uibhir de dh’Innseanaich an latha an-diugh aig a bheil sinnsear a thàinig às a’ Ghaidhealtachd."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/alba/foghlam/litir/media/archive/081_090/nb/litir_ 090_au_nb.ram

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/alba/foghlam/litir/media/mp3/081_090/litir_090.mp3
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/alba/foghlam/litir/pdf/081_090/litir_090.pdf

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on February 02, 2005)

Yes, the "ou" of house, trout etc is pronounced in a very unique way on the Outer Banks. The "oi" or "oy" sound I was referring to is heard in they way they pronounce "high tide"...more like "hoy toyd" or "hoi toid".

If you move just a bit north from the Outer Banks to the Tidewater region of Virginia the "house" becomes almost "hoos"...again, something I've always been told was a vestige of elizabethan english. There may be more Scottish to it than english, however.

Regarding the Irish in Montana...there was a thread not long ago that had something to do with that subject. I can't recall the title but if you type a few keywords and use the search tool in the margin, you might be able to pull it up.

When the copper mines in Cork (Castletownbeare} played out, many miners went to Montana. The "Butte brogue" was well known until fairly recently.

hoity toity
airde d'airde

An airde: the nobility, people in high places, the "swell" set. see o'donaill, p 25-6



dc

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Peadar a chara: A Modest proposal.

Why is vaquero preferable to boc rua or bocai/ rua? There wasw a large and significant Irish (speaking) presence in both Texas and New Orleans as early as mid 18th century. Why wouldn't there be a significant Irish language contribution to the gambling and cattle ranching "slang" of the region? Vaquero is the accepted etymology of buckaroo. But why is boc rua or bocaí rua for buckaroo not at least a humble contender?

Speaking of wild bucks (boc rua), the OED says buccaneer is from a native American word mocaem and an obscure word for a goat barbecue. Why not
boc aniar, a playboy from the west?

Buccaneer
Boc aniar: A playboy from the western world.


The Irish comprised a large percentage of the sailors and seamen of all nations in the okld New World from the beginning of 17th century. They were the wild wandering bucks and playboys from the west in the 17th, 18th centuries that were also called wild geese. Why not wild bucks?


Hanker
Ain-Gá
Ain-Gábhair
Intense craving; a “craze” for something

Gábhair, f. (gs. ~). Craze, craving. Bheith ar gábhair chun ruda, to be “crazy” for something. gábhair thobac, craving for tobacco. (OD p. 598)
Ain-, intensive prefix; over-, intense- (RR p. 10)

Hankerin’ to sniff the Gulf Breeze. Said of a wanted man rollin’ his tail south making for the mexican Border. p. 140.



Dogie: an anemic hard to feed orphan calf.
Do-thóigthe, hard to feed (as a calf) Dineen.


Faro: Fiaradh (The main move is called the "turn." For the twist of the card out of the tell box


Fluke: Fo-luach. A rare reward or payment.

Chicek fricasee or easy fried chicken.
Fricasee: Friochadh sámh (easy fry)

Maverick: "An unfortunate, unlucky, motherless calf of unknown origin or ownership.” (Ramon Adams, Dictionary of Western Slang)

Mí-ámharach: unlucky, luckless, unfortunate; mischievous, prankish, vexatious; awkward, dismal



Rustler: Adams says it is from hustler p. 262.

Rustler
Rua-easumhla
Wild outlaw. Violent rebelliousness.

Rua: wild, violent
easumhla : an “outlaw,” rebelliousness, disobedience, recalcitrance.

Scab: what a logger calls a workman who will not join the union. Adams, Western Slang, p. 268.

Sciob: to snatch, or to grab violently. A “Sciobaire” is a “snatcher.”


Blind Tiger: an illegal drinking joint.
Ball ain-diaga, a wicked profane spot.


Bucko: Boc áidh . A lucky buck.

Dude: Dúd, dúid: a dolt, a numbskull, an eavesdropper, a rubber-necker, a voyeur.
A dude on a dude ranch is always a rubber-necker.


Cracker -
Creagaire: A hard, hardy person. A miser.


Jammin’ the breeze
Cowboy expression for going at full speed. Ramon F. Adams, P. 164

Tiomáin: act of driving, herding, dispatching; a drive, haste, rush, bustle. Dispatching and driving as cattle.


Tiomáinim na ba, I drive, or herd, the cattle.
ba ritheas: running cattle or herd.

Jammin’ the breeze
Tiomáin na ba ritheas
Herding the running cattle
Driving the running herd.

Jim Crow: What the loggers in the west call a small, unusable cross tie. P. 165

Diomá crua
Hard difficulty. Cruel despair.

Diomá : diffculty, despair.
Crua : cruel, hard.


Loo loo : In the west a big winning poker hand.
liú luath : Sudden mad shouting; spontaneous howls and screams.

Liú: shouting, screams, howls, yells.
Luath: wild, sudden, quick, speedy,

Lulu for fair
liú luath foirfe

“That’s a liú luath foirfe!” A complete howl.

That's my "lulu for fair."

>But why is boc rua or bocaí rua for buckaroo not at least a humble contender?<

I reckon it's in a class with "mo chasan."

The Irish in Montana also worked at ranching, or farm laubouring to give it its proper if less glamourous title.

Butte was often a start point for such labourers, going to relatives or friends who were working at mines or whatever, before moving out to the new grasslands.

There was even some ofthis going on at the 1880's onward.

As for Gaelic influence on speech: buck is a Scots word for chap, or a cockey fellow, and is used my many older people in the North Leinster / South Ulster area.

Being Scots, it is a Lallans word as opposed to Gaelic.

Many localities would have had Irish and Scots Gaelic in the homes, in the same way as there are Welsh speaking pokets in Herefordshire in England.

The everyday speech, however, is English.

If accent is an indicator of influence, check out the Emerald Isle of the Caribbean: Monserratt.

A Galway accent is spoken in some areas, and its peppered in wording and names and placenames with Irish due to its founders who were Irish slaves from Cromwellian times.

Cromwell allowed the City of Bristol to take salves from South Wales, North Cornwall and Ireland Southern coast.

In Ireland, the people fled northwards, to Connact, only to find all the land was taken from the "Hell or to Connact" policy of some 20 years earlier.

These people stayted on the roads and formed tow groups: Tinkers, who were tradesmen, and Spailpin who were unskilled labourers.

From 1830 to 1930 there was a policy of settling spailpin, and today most people dont even know who they were.

The travellers, however, stayed on the road.

That is why most travellers have southern names, such as Mc Donagh, Mc Carthy, Keally, O' Donoghue, Carty etc.

Names such as Mongans, Ward and Joyce are romany clans who married into Irish travellers.

Romany, as seperate to Irish travellers, were a common feature in Ireland before independence, but since then Ireland has not been a stomping ground for them.

This all rootes from before the black slave trade.

Theres some history to take in.

Rhodes, a chara,
I think that you are wrong about buck.
Buck is not a Scots (Lallans) word in origin. It is one of the many Irish/Gaelic words which is used in Lallans.
Slán beo!
Chris

a chairde: again, it is my humble contention based that Irish and Gaelic had an enormous hidden influence on the demotic speech of New Orleans and Texas and the frontier crossroads of the west, just as they did on the speech of my Eastern baile aice of the old Brooklyn and NYC Irish saol luim. the dead rabbit gang were dead ra/ibe/ad. dead big galoots. nothing to do with english rabbits. all the gangs of ny had irish monikers. the why-o gang was the uathadh. patsy conroy gang was pairt sa chonradh. plug ugly were baill o/glaigh. gorilla mob were gabh o/ raille (they stole from ny central railroad.) at least that's my humble opine.

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I reckon it's in a class with "mo chasan."

I have a bridge in Brooklyn if you got the suim oll amháin (samollions.) Moccasins for "dogs" (do chos, your feet) on a bealach (block) in NY in 1900 and your feet or dogs (do chos, your feet) hurt in "English." Though you may be right. A Ward Éilitheoir(heeler) like Big Tim Sullivan in the Bowery did wear mocassins. Only they were made by Tammany Hall Indians. .

(Message edited by dancas1 on February 05, 2005)

And the Mafia were Irish also - Mo fhia - really a pet name for the boys.

Mafia were sicilian. Owney Madden, Gopher Gang, Vinny Coll, Legs Diamond were Irish. Madden born in England, moved to hells Kitvchen at age 6, Mad Dog Coll was an Irish speaker from Donegal, and Legs from Philly, born to irish speaking parents. They were resourceful bu/idealaithe gar, local bottlers.

Extremely interesting, the way Irish exerted an influence over American speech.
What do you attribute the decline of Irish in the US to, a Dhancais?

Irish was lost in US because of Poverty.
Shame.
Anglo-Saxonism in the academy.
RC Church failure to promote the lingo.

Though I believe Irish is alive in American speech -- as so-called "slang" & the tongue of the "underworld."

agus caith De na Sassanach sios sa tine te...

at least they wont die of the cold????