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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through January 29, 2005 » The slender "t" and "d" in Irish dialect « Previous Next »

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daniel cassidy (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 205.188.116.136
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 08:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Chairde: I have been studying Irish for about 5 years and have a question about pronunciation of the slender "t" and "d". I have noticed in talking with friends who are native Irish speakers -- and also with teachers of Irish-- that there is a wide variation of opinion on the correct pronunciation of the slender "T" and "D". For slender "t" I have heard and been told (and read in pronunciational texts) that is either pronounced as the "t" in English "tin," or the "ch" in English "chive." Some even pronounce it with a "j" sound as in "jones." The same thing occurs with slender "D." Everything from the "D" of din to "dj" to "J." One friend from Clare said educational levels and region and even class dialect comes into the equation. Anyway, am I hearing things or is the wide variety of ways the slender T" and "D" are pronounced, decriptively. as varied as I have heard, read, and been told?
One older pronunciation book even said the slender T" should never sound like "ch" or "tj." Same with slender "d" Confused in San Francisco. Apologies for the long question. Thanks, Danny

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 04:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

<< The principal member of the phoneme represented by d´ is formed in the following manner: the tip of the tongue touches the teeth-ridge and the soft palate is raised, causing complete stoppage of the air-passage; the air is compressed by pressure from the lungs, and then released with an explosive sound. The vocal chords vibrate. The sound may be described as a voiced alveolar plosive with palatal quality...

t´ -- The sounds represented by this symbol are formed in the same manner as those represented by d´ in all respects except that (i) t´ represents voiceless sounds in all positions, (ii) t´-sounds are articulated with more force than d´ sounds, and (iii) t´ sounds are aspirated. The principal member of the t´-phoneme may be described as a voiceless alveolar plosive with palatal quality.>>

--Risteard B. Breatnach, "The Irish of Ring, Co. Waterford"

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-3.html
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<< d´ -- This is a palatalized voiced dental plosive, formed by pressing the tip and blade of the tongue against the upper teeth and teeth-ridge, the front of the tongue being at the same time raised towards the hard palate giving a palatalized effect. The lips are slightly spread...

...While the dental type d´ is the type used by Amhlaoibh Ó Loingsigh and the older speakers in general, it is replaced with the younger speakers by an alveolar d´, similar to that used in English in words such as 'din', 'kid'. I have not heard the palatalized dental in general use with any young speaker. On the other hand I have heard both types used by middle-aged speakers. Among several speakers between 70 and 100 years of age with whom I have come into contact, I have found none with the alveolar (or English type) d´ in their Irish speech.

This alternative d´ differs from the dental d´ in the primary point of articulation. It is formed by raising the tip of the tongue to the front of the teeth-ridge. With regard to palatalization, lip-position, voicing and glides, it is similar to the dental...

t´ -- This is a palatalized voiceless dental plosive and corresponds to d´ with regard to formation and glides...

...Those speakers who use an alveolar d´ in place of the dental, likewise replace the dental t´ by an alveolar, similar to that used in English 'tin', 'get'.>>

--Brian Ó Cuív, "The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork"

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-1.html
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<< d´ represents an unaspirated voiced alveolo-palatal plosive which is formed by placing the tip of the tongue against the lower teeth and by raising the front of the tongue to make contact with the junction of the teeth-ridge and the hard palate. More contact is made by the tongue on the hard palate than on the teeth-ridge...

t´ is formed in the same way as d´, except that it is aspirated and is voiceless.>>

--Tomás de Bhaldraithe, "The Irish of Cois Fhairrge, Co. Galway"

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?imagefield.x=0&an=Tom%E1s+de+B haldraithe&tn=The+Irish+of+Cois+Fhairrge&imagefield.y=0

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 04:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

<< d´ -- This symbol denotes several varieties of sound, the norm being a voiced palatalized alveolar plosive: in making it the soft palate is raised, the blade of the tongue and the teeth-ridge make contact to stop the air-stream, which is then suddenly released; meanwhile the tip of the tongue lies inactive behind the lower front teeth.

In the pronunciation of some speakers, the blade of the tongue is slightly grooved and retracted so that the tip also makes contact with the teeth-ridge. The subsequent release then takes the form of a voiced palatalized alveolar fricative glide, of varying prominence, giving the phoneme a more or less affricated effect...

t´ -- The first variety of this phoneme corresponds to [d´], but is voiceless, more strongly articulated, and has aspiration [i.e. a voiceless plosive...followed by a relatively prominent expiration / accompanied by a slight puff of breath]...

Some speakers make contact rather with the tip of the tongue while the blade is grooved, so that the release is heard as a voiceless palatalized alveo-palatal fricative. Therefore the phoneme appears as an affricated sound...

There is a tendency to overlapping with regard to t´ and k´, e.g. t´ar@/k´ar@ tearra, t´as/k´as teas, t´iL´/k´iL´ cill, k´e: he:/t´e: he: cia hé?>>

--Seán de Búrca, "The Irish of Tourmakeady, Co. Mayo"

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-6.html
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<< d´, t´ -- These Erris affricates are not very different from [those in] English...‘jig’ and...‘cheer’ respectively. There does seem however to be a difference, which is this: for t§ as in English ‘cheer’ the tip of the tongue is up, and there is also some protrusion of the lips. For t§ as in Erris Irish t§it§ tuit, t§ax teach [i.e. t´it´, t´ax], the tip of the tongue is down against the lower teeth and the lips are spread. For the Erris Irish affricates, then, it may be said that the primary articulation is palatal, the secondary alveolar. The front of the tongue is raised to make a closure at the junction of the teeth-ridge and hard palate, and is then slowly released, causing friction in a narrowing between tongue and teeth-ridge, while the tip of the tongue remains against the lower front teeth...

Plosive d´ replaces affricate d´ following §. When it occurs in utterance final position it is unvoiced.

Examples--§d´u:ru: stiúrughadh, ba§d´u: baisteadh, e:§d´@xd éisteacht, ma:§d´ir´ maighistir, k´e§d´ ceist.

In sandhi plosive d´ and t´ regularly replace the corresponding affricates d´ and t´ respectively, preceding homorganic affricates, laterals, and nasals. For example in @ bant´ d´il´i§g´ _ag baint duilisg_ the t´ of bant´ is an unexploded plosive while the d´ of d´il´i§g´ is an affricate. Similarly in @ xid´ d´el´ign´i: _a chuid deilgní_ the d´ of xid´ is an unexploded plosive and the d´ in d´el´ign´i: is an affricate.>>

--Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh, “The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo”

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-9.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 04:30 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

<< d´... -- The affricate...is in general use in Achill...

t´...t´§...unvoiced...corresponding to d´...>>

--Gerard Stockman, “The Irish of Achill, Co. Mayo”

http://homepage.eircom.net/~normanhealy/1000_1099.htm
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<< Deir Quiggin fa dtaobh de t´: 'I have not noticed any tendency in Donegal for t´ to pass into t´§ as in parts of Connaught, Manx and Scotch Gaelic. The contact for t´ is however broken very gradually and a glide resembling § is heard.' Ní thig an cur síos seo le Gaedhilge Theilinn. Níthear...t´, d´ + sleamhnán...nó t´§...affricata cheart...i dTeilionn, aig óg agus aig aosta.>>

--Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn"

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-8.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 36
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 12:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I think the slender t and d in Munster is too weakly palatalized and i think it wasn’t like that in Old Irish. In Ulster, in younger speakers speech they pronounce ch and j respectively. Older speakers pronounce them quite like in ’tune’ and ’dew’ in English. Such is the pronounciation in Connaught as well. I think it’s the "right" pronounciation, or better, the "old pronounciation" (since the other pronounciations are all right, they’re evolutions of the ancient system). It’s the sound of the palatalized d and t in Slavic languages as well.

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 98
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 01:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

BOTTOM LINE?!

How do I say "tir?"

Cheer
Tear
jeer.

I'll bet every native speaker would understand me no matter which I said.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 05:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Native speakers understand everything ! ;)

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Dancas1
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Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 12:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde: go raibh maith agat.

tri tir: some tear, some jeer, some cheer (tir)

Sounds like the divine Raic Ard of New Yawk so-called "Ing-lish" -- I have at least three registers of pronunciation of Be/arla in mo chab.

DC



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