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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through January 29, 2005 » Course in standard Irish with pronunciation in IPA « Previous Next »

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Davide
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Username: Davide

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dear friends,
does anybody know a book on standard Irish showing the pronunciation in International Phonetic Alphabet? I have got Mícheál Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish", a very good course book showing the pronunciation in IPA, but it is based on the Cois Fhairrge dialect's grammar, not on standard Irish grammar and spelling (an caighdeán oifigiúil), so that I cannot understand at all how I should read and speak the standard form of Irish using the pronunciation of the Cois Fhairrge dialect (see my previous message www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/13316.html?1106152350 ). What I am looking for is a guide, a course book, grammar, Web page, booklet etc. where I could learn, possibly with the help of the IPA, to read, and speak, Irish according to a certain real dialect's pronunciation but in its standard form...
Hoping that somebody can help me I thank you with all my heart.
Slán agus beannacht,
Davide

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 581
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 02:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Davide, a chara,

I do understand your concern. As everyone here knows, I'm not the greatest admirer of Cois Fhairrge Irish. I have nothing against the dialect itself (though in my ears both the Munster dialects and the Ulster ones sound better) but I definitely resent that some learners who have used Ó Siadhail then thinks that Cois Fhairrge is the only correct dialect and everyone who doesn't speak it is wrong.

Having said that, I wouldn't recommend you to learn just standard Irish. I know that this might sound strange, so I'll try to explain myself. With almost every European language, it's best to learn the standard language. It is
1. the language of the media
2. the language of education
3. the language of culture
4. the language of the capital or some major city/cities
5. it is usually regarded as the most correct way to speak.
For French, German, English, Croatian, Czech, Swedish etc. I would definitely recommend the standard language to any serious learner. Not so with Irish.

1. Media: Both on TnaG and on RnaG you will hear more dialects than the standard. The most popular programs are all in one dialect or another. The single most popular one is in Cois Fhairrge Irish.
2. Education: The main language of education is English, I'm sad to say. In the areas where Irish is the first language, the education is carried out in the dialect of that place.
3. Culture: Saying that the standard language is the language of culture would also be quite wrong, almost all of the famous books in Irish are written in one of the dialects. Famous groups/artists such as Altan, Clannad, Seamus Begley, Lasairfhíona, Enya etc. all sing in their own dialects.
4. Sadly enough, Irish is not the main language of the capital nor any major city.
5. The standard language does not enjoy any particular prestige, most native speakers in the Gaeltachtaí regard it as unnatural and prefer their dialects. Every speaker I've discussed this issue with have said that they prefer their own dialect, but that every dialect is better than the standard.

Finally, all the dialects are parts of the natural living language with a direct link to Irish history. In contrast to most European standard languages, standard Irish did not evolve in any university, court or capital - it was superficially created in the end of the 20th century. It's nothing wrong with learning the standard, but I definitely suggest learning one of the dialects as well.

It should also be said that the difference is sometimes exaggerated. I first learned Irish by reading Ó Siadhail's book, I've then spent lot of time both in the Conamara Gaeltacht and the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht. I'm quite fluent both in the Connemara dialect and the Kerry one but I have never studied the standard. Despite this, I've never had any problem reading any book in Irish, including quite some quite abstract thesises. If you speak a dialect, you can speak with any Irish speaker and you can read any book in Irish.

The most important thing to remember: In some European countries (England, France, Spain etc.) speakers of some dialects will be looked down upon. That is never ever the case with a speaker of an Irish dialect.

(And to answer your question as well :-) No, there is no course in Standard Irish even remotely comparable to Ó Siadhail. Most courses are written in one dialect or another, precisely for the reasons I've mentioned in this post.)

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 02:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The "Foclóir Scoile" is the closest thing I can think of to what Davide is asking for.
http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=2792

I really think he should look into Mayo Irish:

The Irish of Tourmakeady, Co. Mayo: a phonemic study
by Seán de Búrca
http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-6.html

The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo: a phonemic study
by Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh
http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-9.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Jax (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.221.205
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 03:46 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

As well as what Peadar mentions above, the Celtic Institute has by Tomás de Bhaldraithe 'The Irish of Cois Fhairrge' which details, from around 1945, the dialect spoken, and appendices on an West/East differentiation. It uses a quasi IPA system (the differences are explained) not too dissimilar to 'Foclóir Scoile' and 'Foclóir Póca. I'd type them out the symbols but the Daltaí box's formatting is not too happy with it :(

I will call the Institute tomorrow and see if they will ship over-seas.

Jax

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 34
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 04:33 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>'The Irish of Cois Fhairrge'<

Yup. Davide has already read it...and "Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge," and "Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge."

And here's an extensive paper that might be found interesting and more pertinent to the question than its title would seem to imply:
http://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~green/cv/greendis.pdf

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Davide
Member
Username: Davide

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 08:45 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Jonas, a Pheadair, a Jax, a chairde,
míle buíochas ar son bhur gcúnaimh! Maidir, mar shampla, le "Nuachúrsa Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí" nó "Réchúrsa gramadaí" le Pádraig Mac Giolla (foilsitheoir: Brún agus Ó Nualáin), a bhfuil siad bunaithe ar ghramadach an chaighdeáin nó ar ghramadach canúna áirithe? Nach n-usáideann siad aibítir fhoghríochta?
Go raibh míle maith agaibh arís!!!
Slán agus beannacht,
Davide

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 367
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 08:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá "Nuachúrsa Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí" agamsa; tá an leabhar timpeall ceithre bhliana tríocha d'aois(?). Dar liom go bhfuil sé bunaithe ar an gcaighdeán.

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Davide
Member
Username: Davide

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 09:57 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Fhear na mbróg! An úsáideann sé aibítir fhoghríochta leis a bhfuaimniú a thaispeáint?
Go raibh maith agat arís, a chara!!!
Slán,
Davide

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 368
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 10:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní léiríonn sé an aibítir fhoghraíochta, a Dhavide.

Tá an chuma air go bhfuil iomlán rialacha gramadaí na Gaeilge léirithe ann! Ní thar barr an leabhar é d'fhoghlaimeoirí -- níl aon fhocal Béarla amháin ann (ach nuair is gá)! Ba le m'athair é agus é ar scoil timpeall 35 bhliana ó shin.

Is gorm an dath atá ar a chlúd. Tá na leathanaigh beagán donn anois, salach ó am!

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Davide
Member
Username: Davide

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 11:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, Fhir na mbróg!
Gabh mo leithscéal má bhodhraím thú, ach thaitneodh sé liom a fhiafraí duit an bhfuil eolaí ar a bhfuaimniú ann agus cén chaoi a ndeir an cúrsa sin a bhfuaimnítear litreacha na Gaeilge?
Míle buíochas arís ar son gach uile ní!
Beir bua agus beannacht,
Davide

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Jax (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 212.100.251.149
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 02:51 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I called the Institute...they are not really set up for overseas...one could call the Book Order Department and set up an order and then post a cheque...but it is not as preferable as credit card, and it is all a bit ad hoc. I bought my books from the people at the Cosmic Physics Dept! The Celtic one were not available. I think litriocht.com is yer best bet.

"Nuachúrsa Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí" been the Christian Brothers I'd say will be in the Caighdeán Oifigiúil due to their job as public educators during the 20th century. As for the 'easy-course' "Réchúrsa gramadaí" I am under the impression that Brún agus Ó Nualáin have tended to do the central dialect the Caighdeán Oifigiúil in the past, but others may ahve more knowledge on that publisher.

Are you in America? Dublin has a few places you can get books. Does anyone know shopes with these Irish version of the above books?

Jax

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 04:43 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>I called the Institute...they are not really set up for overseas...one could call the Book Order Department and set up an order and then post a cheque...but it is not as preferable as credit card, and it is all a bit ad hoc.<

I agree. I think the one time I was going to order something directly from them, I ended up deciding to get it from one (or two) of the on-line shops instead. Litriocht.com is good.

"The Irish of Cois Fhairrge" may be harder to find now than some of the others. I got my copy from www.schoenhofs.com in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Davide
Member
Username: Davide

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 01:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Is ón Áisínteacht Dáiliúchán Leabhar a cheannaigh mise formhór mo choda leabhar Éireannach. Seo é a seoladh:

Áisínteacht Dáiliúchán Leabhar
31 Sráid na bhFiníní
Baile Átha Cliath

Teileafón: +353 1 6616522

Slán,
Davide

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 370
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 06:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Dhavide,

quote:

Gabh mo leithscéal má bhodhraím thú, ach thaitneodh sé liom a fhiafraí duit an bhfuil eolaí ar a bhfuaimniú ann agus cén chaoi a ndeir an cúrsa sin a bhfuaimnítear litreacha na Gaeilge?
Míle buíochas arís ar son gach uile ní!



Níl a bhíochas ort (Tá súil agam gur úsáid cheart í sin den téarma!)
Tá an leabhar in iomlán faoin teanga scríofa, ní luann sé focal amháin faoi fhuaimniú!
Agus is beag an méid atá scríofa as Béarla ann, ní úsáidtear é ach i gcásanna speisialta, mar shampla:

Tá sé á bhualadh

1) He is being hit

2) He is hitting him

Usáidtear na foirmeacha a leanas chun an débhríocht a réiteach:

1) Táthar á chrá.

2) Tá sé á chrá aige.

--

PS. Is "a Fhear na mBróg" an tuiseal ginideach de m'ainm.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 02:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>"a Fhear na mBróg" an tuiseal [gairmeach] de m'ainm.<

Rud eile: "formhór mo chuid leabhar" adeirtear.

An lá cheana, scríobh mise an frása "i measc roinnt bheag focal eile," agus b'fhéidir go bhfuil daoine ann a cheap go raibh sé sin mícheart, ach ar ndóigh níl. Mícheart ar fad a bheit sé dhá scríobhtaí nó dhá abraítí *"i measc roinnte bige focal eile"! Is é an rud a bheith ansin, "na rialacha ag briseadh na Gaeilge."

Chomh maith leis sin, is in aonturas a scríobhaim "bheith" in áit "bheadh," mar is é "bheith" foirm an choinníollaigh i nGaeilge Iorrais:
bheithinn
bheithfeá
bheith, bheit sé, bheit sí
bheit sinn
bheit sibh
bheit siad

v´ehiN´
v´eça:
v´eh, v´et§e:, v´et§i:
v´et§iN´
v´et§iv´
v´et§i@d

Seo abairt as "Pádhraic Mháire Bhán" (l. 183-4) mar a foilsíodh ins na tríochaidí é:

"Shílfeá gurbh' é Maidhc ba mhó a raibh sé ins an tóir air, agus muna mbíodh go raibh sé d'ádh ar gach duine aca bata bríoghmhar a bheith leis bhéadh cuimhne aca air."

Ach is mar seo a léighim-sa é:

hi:l´ha: g@b´ e: m@ik´ b@ wû: re §e: ns @ to:r´ er´ @g@s mur@ m´i:f g@ ro §e: g@ a: er´ gax din´@ ku: bat@ br´î:w@r @ v´e l´e§ v´e kîvn´@ ku: er´

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 03:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ach, má scríobhaim "bheithinn," níl fáth ar bith ann leis an "f" a chur i bhfoirm an dara pearsa den uatha ach oiread. "Bheithinn, bheitheá," mar sin. Hmm...agus ní [ç] atá ins an bhfoirm sin ach oiread leis an gcéad phearsain, ach [h]:

bheithinn
bheitheá
bheith, bheit sé, bheit sí
bheit sinn
bheit sibh
bheit siad

v´ehiN´
v´eha:
v´eh, v´et§e:, v´et§i:
v´et§iN´
v´et§iv´
v´et§i@d

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 04:07 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

>...níl fáth ar bith ann leis...<

Hmm...níl fáth ar bith leis...

zzzzzzzzzzzz, adéarfaidh duine eicínt.

Peadar Ó Gríofa



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