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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 09, 2005 » When to Use "Tá Failte Romhat" « Previous Next »

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In a previous, unrelated thread, it was mentioned by the poster that he recently learned that you only use "tá failte romhat" when welcoming someone into a place, like your home.

But, on a recent episode of Ros na Rún, when one character was thanking another character for some help that she had provided, the response to her "go raith maith agat" was "ta failte romhat."

So, here's my question: Is it correct to use "tá failte romhat" to thank someone generally, or is it limited to welcoming someone into a place?

I would also like to know what is used in place of "tá failte romhat" if it can't be used for a general thank you.

Go raith maith agat.

Dáithí

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Antaine
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Post Number: 146
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 08:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

what iv'e been told the proper phrase is, is
go ndéannaí maith duit

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.182.140
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Daithi - I've always heard "Tá failte romhat" used to thank someone and O'Donail's FOCLAIR GAEILGE-BEARLA uses it this way. I don't know the phrase Antaine cites and have never heard it used.

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Antaine
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Post Number: 147
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Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I had never heard it myself until last Jamison when someone in my class said she was told by one of the native speakers that the phrase I gave was the one that should be used. (and I should have had just one "n" in there...

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Do you know which native speaker she meant? It may be a very regional usage since I've never heard anyone use it - native speakers included. Can everyone else be wrong?

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Antaine
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Post Number: 148
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Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I dunno, honestly, altho Lúcas may remember. I chalked it up to something like "tóg go bog é" - where irish is made to imitate english by fluent, but not native speakers. for instance, "in english we say 'you're welcome' so that must be what it is in irish!" but even in say french, "welcome" has nothing to do with either "de rien" or "pas de quoi"...i think it would be reasonable to assume that if one responded to "merci" with "bienvenue" they would be looked at like they had seven heads.

it seems that most languages opt for either a well-wishing (go ndéanaí maith duit) or telling the person not to thank you, or to think nothing of it (niets te danken, de rein, de nada, etc. i can't think of one off the top of my head that uses a permutation of "welcome" (altho, they may be there...i don't know every language that there is...i would be interested to know if anybody other than english uses "welcome" as a response to thanks)...

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Lughaidh
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Post Number: 5
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Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 01:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I've heard "go ndéanaí a mhaith duit" from very good speakers from Donegal (John Ghráinne, a seanchaí from Rann na Feirste, and Micheál O Murchú, my old teacher, who speaks Rann na Feirste irish as well).

You wrote:
"in english we say 'you're welcome' so that must be what it is in irish!"

I’d say the contrary: if we say that in English, you can't say it in Irish for it's an Anglicism.
About French you're right, in France if u answer "bienvenue" to "merci", the person will be surprised and wonder where you come from :D . In Québec they say "bienvenue" in that case, under the influence of English.
Actually i don't know any language that uses the same word as for welcoming as an answer to "thank u", except Welsh, which is in contact with English. So, it's an Anglicism and I won't never use it in Irish, but you can do if u want (but it's not "Irish").

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Chinita
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Post Number: 4
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Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, níl a fhios agam. I'm not sure if any other language uses "welcome" as a response to thanks, but here is what I asked my friends:

In Polish you would say:
Proszę = you're welcome [Literally: please]

In Russian, you can respond:
Пожалуйста = you're welcome [Literally: please]
Не за что = you're welcome [Literally: It's nothing!]

In Dutch, you can also say:
graag gedaan = you're welcome [Literally: Gladly done]
geen dank = you're welcome [Literally: No thanks]

In Italian, you would say:
Prego = you're welcome [Literally: please]

So, I am still asking my other friends if they know any other language that says "welcome" as a response to "thank you". It might be just an english response.

(Message edited by chinita on January 16, 2005)

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Antaine
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Post Number: 149
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Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

a lughaidh, a chara,

yeas...that was what I meant, that it didn't necessarily follow that that was the case

however, what you brought up about welsh is interesting...ireland did have close contact with the english for many centuries, so the possibility of picking up common english phrases is possible, but tá fáilte romhat does sound a little "too good to be true," in that it sounds too close to something too unique to be the case...

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Post Number: 343
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 05:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I've also been told "tá fáilte romhat" as a response to "go raibh maith agat". Maybe the confusions lies in that downwards of 5% of people in Ireland say "you're welcome" in response to "thank you". I myself say "alright yeah" or something along those lines; "you're welcome" sounds too formal, plus I don't like how it sort-of implies that you're always weclome. For instance, you might give some-one a sweet and they may say "thanks", but you might not want to give them another, but in saying "you're welcome" you sort-of leave the door open. . .

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Daithi MacPheadair (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 195.7.54.85
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cad faoi "You're more than welcome"? I think that this response is most definately uniquely Irish - as in Hibernian English. Is brea liom an nath sin sa Bearla. Is there an Irish language origin to this phrase??

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 09:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fáilte is fiche (romhat);
Tá fáilte is fiche romha);

Do chéad fáilte;
Céad fáilte;

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Daithi Mac Pheadair (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh mile maith agat a Sheosamh, deanfaidh me usaid maith as an nath sin sa Gaeilge sa todchai le cunamh De.

With great respect Fear na mBrog I don't agree with your suggestion that downwards of 5% of the Irish say "you're welcome" in response to "thank you" particularly among older people and in shops and restaurants and such like.

N'fheadar cen fath a usaidtear "No worries mate" san Austrail? I guess these phrases just become part of a country's lexicon with time. I think the Australian's "No worries mate" is very friendly sounding at first but recently while living there I found it to be a bit over-presumptuous at times particularly in response to a more formal "Thank you". B'fheidir go bhfuil an iomarca tamall saor agam!

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Last Friday (or Thursday) I was walking down O'Connell Street in Dublin and I asked a fella on the street if he could point me to Waltons Music Store. He gave me directions and afterwards I said "Thanks alot", to which he replied "You're welcome". I realised then how rarely I hear that phrase; honest to God I can't remember the last time I'd heard it before that day!

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 96
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine, a chara,

I was surprised when I was told at the last Gaeltacht weekend that "Tá fáilte romhat" is a Béarlachas response to "Go raibh maith agat." This was later confirmed by my teacher, a native speaker from Gweedore. He told me a more idiomatic response would be "Go ndéana a mhaith duit."

Both deBhaldaithe and Ó Dónaill confirm it too. If you look at p. 837 of deBhaldaithe's dictionary you will see under the first entry for the word "welcome," that he list's the response to "Go raibh míle maith agat" as "Go ndéana a mhaith dhuit." On page 823 of Ó Dónaill's dictionary, it lists under the first entry for maith, "Go ndéana a mhaith duit, (in reply to thanks), you are welcome." So it seems to be more than a Donegal idiom.

I am not a native speaker but the idiom sounds more Irish to me. It answers a subjunctive, go raibh, with a subjunctive, go ndéana. It responds to a wish with a wish. This is the same pattern as the common greeting "(Go mbeannaí) Dia duit," and response "(Go mbeannaí) Dia's Muire duit"

Tá, on the other hand, is a substantive which indicates that the "welcome" exists. Why would I give a welcome when somebody has wished "goodness at me?" It sounds like an English idiom to me, similar to the Béarlachas response "Ná habair é." A better Irish idiom might be "Níl a bhuíochas ort," literally, there is not gratitude on you. You do not have an obligation to be grateful, i.e., don't mention it.

It still surpises me how prevalent "Tá fáilte romhat" and "Ná habair é" is among fluent Gaeilgeoirí. I guess part of the problem for native English speakers is discerning English idiom.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And also see O'Dónail, p. 507 'Go raibh maith agat!' "Tá fáilte romhat!' "Thank you!' 'You're welcome!' I find it hard to believe that this reply is incorrect when the majority of speakers use it. I believe that, just as in English, there's more than one polite response. And, I always defer to the natives, dúchas or líofa. It's their language and I wouldn't presume to tell them that they were incorrect.

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Dáithí
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

From what I read above, there's more than one way to respond to "Thank you." A Lucas, when you mention that you're surprised of how prevalent "tá fáilte romhat" is among fluent speakers, aren't you confirming then that the phrase is an established, valid response to "thank you?"

I don't mean to be argumentative, but when I heard it used on Ros na Rún, it piqued my interest to the point that I would like to better understand if it's a phrase a non-fluent speaker like myself should use. In English, I may not often choose to say "You're welcome" in response to "thank you," but I wouldn't tell a non-fluent speaker learning English that she or he should only use "you're welcome" when somebody enters a place, such as your home. Likewise, if somebody pointed out that you can say "alright yeah" in response to "thank you," it doesn't rule out "You're welcome" as a valid response.

Thanks everybody for the input!

Dáithí

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"You're welcome" is not always a greeting to someone at your door. It also indicates something done or given gladly. "Thanks for the book". "You're welcome to it". "Thanks for watching the kids". "Oh, you're very welcome." That may be the same idea as "Failte romhat" in response to a wish for good.

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Antaine
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Post Number: 151
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Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

what i've been able to figure is that failte romhat is a recent addition from heavily anglicized speakers.

authenticity aside, we seem to have gotten into the argument between proscriptive and descriptive grammar.

is the purpose of grammar to describe the way it's done, or to establish the rules by which all speakers must abide?

it seems that today most linguists seem to hold to the descriptive angle. failte romhat may have spurious beginnings, but is at least as common amongst speakers as the more "authentic" choices, and is therefore a valid one.

The question is, do we, as non-native speakers (those of use who aren't) do better to cling to authenticity in our own vocabulary while recognizing the right of native speakers to change the language over time? I personally shy away from borrow words that break the spelling rules whenever it is possible for me to do so.

whether we like to admit it or not, Irish has absorbed much from english over the centuries - not just terms, but even some of the thinking that allows for phrases like "you're welcome" "don't mention it" and "take it easy"

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 07:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

How far back in time do you want to go with the preservation of "authenticity"? Irish has changed greatly over the centuries as do all living languages. In our own country, every influx of immigrants has brought new words into our language that soon become standard usage. Do you want to learn to speak Irish as the natives do or to be a reliquary of antiquity?

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

… Actually i don't know any language that uses the same word as for welcoming as an answer to "thank u", except Welsh, which is in contact with English. So, it's an Anglicism and I won't never use it in Irish, but you can do if u want (but it's not "Irish"). …

(GRMA a Chinita as do bhailiúchán spéisiúil fosta.)

Diolch yn fawr.
- Croeso (i chi)

Tapadh leat / Gu rabh math agat.
- Sé do bheatha / Fáilte romhat.

Nár lagaí Dia do lámh / .... / Go raibh maith agat.
Fáilte romhat / Sé do bheatha.

Trí theanga Cheilteacha le hais aon teanga amháin Ghearmáindise a bhfuil an dul sin orthu de réir na bpostanna go dtí seo. Trí chéad bliain ó shin bhí níos mó cainteoirí ag na teangacha Ceilteacha sin le chéile ná a raibh ag an mBéarla as féin in Éirinn agus an Bhreatain le chéile. Ní mé cé ba thúisce leis an nós mar sin.

Maidir le ‘go ndéana(í) a mhaith duit’, nath nach bhfuil fad urchair ó ‘bon appetit’ an Chonnachtaigh: ‘go ndéana sé a mhaith duit’. Ciallaíodh sé ‘fáilte romhat’ ag an Ultach anois, ach is é mo bharúil nach amhlaidh a bhíodh i dtólamh. An tUltach a mholfaidh béile i gConamara le ‘tá blas ar sin’, feicfidh sé uafás ar mhuintir an tí, mar go gciallóidh a chaint dóibhsean gur dhrochbhlas a fuair sé ar an mbia. Tá caint na ndaoine mar atá agus is fearr glacadh leis. Má théann dream taobh tíre amháin ag sárú ar a leathbhreac, cuimhnídís i dtosach gurb é an forcheartú, áit ar bith ar domhan, is mó a athraíonn teanga thar aon ní – the greatest changer/innovator of languages: hypo-correction.

….. Tá, on the other hand, is a substantive which indicates that the "welcome" exists. Why would I give a welcome when somebody has wished "goodness at me?" It sounds like an English idiom to me, …. (Ach fágaimis uainn an t-ordú ‘Ná …’)

Níl an Connachtach dall ar an Modh Foshuite ná baol air. Is é an tUltach a rachfas i muinín an ordaithe lena ‘bon appetit’ a rá: ‘Bígí súch’! Níor mhiste do dhuine súil a chaitheamh ar an iris 'Feasta' siar sna 30aidí mar a raibh Muiris Ó Droighneáin ~(Uladh) ag tabhairt fogha i ndiaidh a chéile faoi altanna Sheáin Uí Ruadháin (Mhaigh Eo). Cíoradh an t-easaontas teanga seo go mion. Ní fiú a bheith leis. Easpa eolais níos mó ná a mhalairt a spreagann cúiseamh an Bhéarlachais go minic ar na saolta seo. Dá labhródh daoine a bhfuil acu in áit a bheith líonraithe le rialacha i rith an ama, b'fhéidir gur mhinice a chloisfinn an teanga seo sa timpeall orm. Nára fada uainn an lá.

Fo chen d’aon tuairim eile ar an ábhar a chairde liom.

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 759
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

Fo chen d’aon tuairim eile ar an ábhar a chairde liom



Céard ata i gceist agat le "fo chen", a Sheosaimh? (Tagaim leis an gcuid eile, dála an scéil).

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Lúcas
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Post Number: 97
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhaithí,

You said you don't want to be argumentative. Who are you kidding? This whole thread was intended to spark argument,which I think is a good thing. That's why I come to this forum.

With respect to your question:

A Lucas, when you mention that you're surprised of how prevalent "tá fáilte romhat" is among fluent speakers, aren't you confirming then that the phrase is an established, valid response to "thank you?"

Yes, I guess I am. I never said it was wrong or incorrect. I was repeating what I was told by others, whose Irish is far greater than mine, that the expression is an Anglicism.

It is only natural that English should infuence Irish. It surrounds the Irish in every human context and endeavor. Resisting this infuence is obviously futile. I am not interested in preserving a reliquary.

I am simply trying to understand Irish idiom, and the difference between Irish idiom and English idiom. The weakest part of my Irish is the Irish idiom. As Americans, neither you nor I have Hiberno-Irish to guide us. I find it to be the most difficult part of the language. The grammar may be different, but the idiom is trully foriegn.

Áfach, mar a deitear, moladh gach duine an t-áth mar a gheobhaidh sé é.




(Message edited by lúcas on January 18, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

'Fáilte' mar a bhíodh ag an dream a chuaigh romhainn a Aonghuis.
Fágfaidh mé faoi Dennis King an scéal a ríomh:

"Fo chen!" This is also written as one word, "fochen", but
the stress is always on the second syllable. A common variant is
"mo chen, mochen, mochean", which seems to have survived longer
in the language.
Context suggests that "fo chen" was a fairly formal expression of
welcome.
Sometimes it's translated "hail!", which fits in certain
contexts, as in "Scéla Mucce Meic Dathó" when Cet and Conall greet
one another in rosc, each one beginning with "Fochen".

Le fáil aige anseo: https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307&L=OLD-IRISH-L&P=R1546&I=-3

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 761
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tuigim. Foinse domhain eolais thú!

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 762
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 02:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

For the record, I have used (tá) failte romhat all my life. And as Seosamh points out, English has also been influenced by it's Celtic neighbours.

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Cailindoll
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine a chara, I liked your very eloquently stated post above about proscriptive and descriptive attitudes. I try into going with the flow of language, but there's a latent bit of proscriptiveness in all of us surely. I do try to avoid the more obvious Béarlachas bits and repeat the more native versions whenever possible without commenting on others' use of these forms. The 'Cheers' response in English sort of gets to me in the same way that the 'No worries, mate' now bothers Dáithí McP, though. It's over-used and you wonder what it means in the same way -- kind of like the meaningless 'have a nice day' that people (myself included) often crank out by rote, with no feeling. I thought people might find it interesting that someone in an Irish class asked me how to say 'Cheers' in Irish. This is someone who uses 'cheers' as thank you -- the response to the busdriver when he gives you the ticket on the bus, or as you're leaving the bus; An expression that seems to mean everything from thanks, to you're welcome, to sláinte, to 'I acknowledge that you didn't mean to bump into me', to a meaningless thing to say like a half-hearted 'have a nice day'. I had no idea what word I could giver her in Irish to fit all of those uses! Maybe 'fáilte romhat' would be appropriate there as exchanging two equally non-original responses for each other! I think I suggested she use ná habair é, though, unless she was clinking glasses with someone!

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Dáithí
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Post Number: 6
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara, a Chailindoll,

I'm a little confused about how you can consider "fáilte romhat" in the same class as "cheers." I don't know how original "fáilte romhat" is, but when I read the posts above, including Aonghus' remark that he has used the phrase all his life, it seems to me that "tá failte romhat" is a valid Irish phrase, even if it hasn't been in use for the last few millenia. What would you think constitutes a valid Irish phrase; one that has been in widespread use for 10 years, 50 years, or does it have to be at least a thousand years? Could it be considered valid simply based on it's widespread use? Or does the phrase have to saturate every square inch (or millimeter) of Irish soil, with no other phrase used in its stead, to be considered original?

See a Chailindoll, this is what happens when I pay attention to what they're saying on Ros na Rún (see the top posting in this thread). I could have avoiding getting all mixed up on this "tá failte romhat" issue if I just looked at the actors instead of listened to them :)

I wonder, should we inform the Ros na Rún producers that they're using non-original Irish?

Cheers,

Dáithí

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Antaine
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Post Number: 155
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Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 11:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

what's up? just chillin'...everything here is cool. play nice and don't be hatin'...

all those are perfectly valid english phrases, but none has been in use for much more than 40 years...some in use for less than 5.

if it's used, and it communicates an idea or concept it's valid. authenticity and validity are two separate things. after all the words and phrases we've adopted in english over the centuries...

the ancient romans didn't have a concept of "gray"...for them it was a shade of either blue or green...no modern european language had a name for the color orange until the fruit had begun to be imported...up till then it was a shade of pink...we don a hindi word before we go to bed, and wish each other the nonsensical "so long" not realizing it has Irish roots.

it just goes to show that Irish is indeed a very *living* langauge, which is a good thing - even if we view english as a bad influence and wish Gaeilge would hang out with some other languages for a change...Lithuanian has a nice ring to it...

and given how much Lithuanians love basketball ::shudder:: perhaps it will do them a world of good to have the Irish teach them hurling...

(Message edited by antaine on January 18, 2005)

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yo Antaine,

"Play nice and don't be hatin'" ????? Some of the remarks made by us above might be slightly sarcastic and poking fun at each other, but telling us to play nice and not be hatin' seems a little out of place.

Anyway, I agree with you that Irish is a living language, but still don't know whether I should use "tá failte romhat." Maybe I'll never know if it's correct to use, even though I hear it often by fluent Irish speakers and it appears in print all around me.

Dáithí

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Aonghus
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Post Number: 768
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Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yo Daithí,
Antaine was giving examples of phrases which have become english, although they break some rules. I don't think he was taking anyone to task...

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Daithí Mac Pheadair (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 195.7.54.85
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aontaim amach is amach le hAntaine. I guess if you want to be puritanical about it then don't use "ta failte romhat" in response to "go raibh maith agat". To the rest of us mere mortals, however, ta failte romhat is a perfectly acceptable response. This is what I was taught to say in school and this is what I have heard said in the Gaeltacht in Irish College. It may not be perfect Gaelige but it does the job - that is to say the phrase adequately conveys the intentions of the speaker to politely accept the thanker's thanks! I realise that there has to be a standard from of Irish that we should all aspire to but in everyday parlance the phrase fits and should stand. As to the bad influence of English, the same argument could be applied in respect of Latin and French both of which have influenced an teanga in various ways - though I guess if the Puritans had their way we'd all be speaking the Irish of the little people and the Picts. And as for the Lithuanians learning hurling - stranger things have happened. Sure even the Yanks have given it a shot... Tiobraid Arann abu!

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 156
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

hey hey hey...step away for two minutes and i'm made into the bad guy. i was saying that failte romhat was valid, regardless of how new it is or it's pedigree. if you say it you'll be understood, so it counts.

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine,

Ta an-bhron orm. When your posting about play "nice and don't be hatin'" came after my posting, I mistakenly thought you were commenting on the nature, or tone of the postings.

So, getting back to the topic of conversation, I'm very interested in understanding this issue of phrases that are taboo (at least with certain folks) because they don't originally come from Irish. I not really interested myself in forming an opinion just yet on what's valid, since I'm so new to the language, but would like to get a better grasp on Irish idioms, and understand which ones are original and which ones are "borrowed."

Maybe what I'll eventually do is reach a compromise, and consider valid only original Irish phrases and those that are borrowed which have a single level of pedigree. That is, if the English phrase was itself borrowed from another language, like Latin, then I won't consider it valid :)

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 157
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

well, I think the consensus is that if it is commonly used by those who speak the language as a first language then it is totally valid and there's no reason other than personal preference why it "shouldn't" be used.

While I prefer the other phrase, go ndéanaí maith duit, when I'm teaching somone I teach them fáilte romhat, since it's easier to remember especially when half of them know the word "fáilte" already...

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Antóin (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.181.75
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

This is the second site on which I have heard people criticising the use of "tá fáilte romhat" as an answer to "thank you". It seems to be 'lucht na Fadúdaise' the speakers of Donegal Irish who object to it. Have we a little bit of inter-dialect rivalry showing here? I never even thought about it before. I seem to have been hearing it always down here in Munster's deep south.

Just ball-hopping. :)

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.205.194
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

And when you come down to it "Go raibh maith agat" really doesn't mean "Thank you". It is the phrase used to express that sentiment but translates as "That there may be good at you".

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.205.194
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Daithi - Please feel free to use "Tá failte romhat". Everyone will understand you. It is the standard response. The other phrases are not wrong but not as widely used.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antóin, a chara,

"lucht na Fadúdaise"? Cad é sin fá dtaobh de?
;-)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Cailindoll
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Username: Cailindoll

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 08:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Wow, it's so easy to leave a word behind you here that unintentionally sets off a chain reaction of words. I love words though, so that's really cool but still a tiny bit alarming! I meant no offense whatsoever, a Dháithí a chara, i ndáiríre -- just trying go ciotach ar ndóigh to say that words don't often mean what they are actually saying like 'there is welcome laid out before you' is not often exactly what you mean when you say it. I was comparing 'Cheers' more because it is used as an alternate response for 'you're welcome' and I thought the quandary of what to offer as its translation was appropriate to this 'fáilte romhat' thread. 'Cheers' in English is just a veneer of a word that can mean anything from 'there is really welcome laid out before your comments on this matter a Chailín' to 'let me show you just how little I think of your opinion on this matter, a Chailín'. Looking back again on your original question, it seems you were asking for people's advice or opinions on the matter, but yet your mind was already made up on the subject. Which is cool of course, because no one here seems to be preaching one way or the other as gospel, you know. I use 'fáilte romhat' myself, but I really love it when I get an opportunity to slide 'go ndéanfaidh sé maith duit'* out to someone -- because I think it's a really rich thing to say that expresses a sincere desire more eloquently and subtlely than any phrase in English could without sounding affected. So sin mo dhá phinginse arís, agus mhaith dhom if I came off as overly critical somehow.

C

* I suppose it should be 'go ndéana sé maith duit' but not sure as I'm only writing what I remember having heard or said myself.

(Message edited by cailindoll on January 20, 2005)

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Odriscoll
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Username: Odriscoll

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Antóin: And when you say "Munster's deep south", to what part are you referring to? I'm just curious since, every two years (2005 being one of them) we make the trip over from Canada to Baltimore and Cape Clear (I guess as my name would suggest to anyone familiar with the area). We've met many great people there over the last few years and can hardly wait to get back.

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara a Chailindoll,

Look's like I've upset not only Antaine, but you also. I'm very sorry for that. My use of Cheers at the end of my posting above was meant to mean "regards," as I thought the word also had that meaning and have seen it used at the end of e-mails before. I was just having fun with the word "cheers," that's all. It wasn't meant to comment on your contribution to this thread. But I would like to take this opportunity to say that I appreciate your input, and also apologize for getting too rambunctous in my response to your "cheers" posting. I only meant it to provoke thought, not as a "chain reaction of words" that would alarm you.

You mention that my mind was made up before I asked the question pertaining to this quote. I don't think that's the case, but then I may not be a good judge of my mind :) I think that after the many postings, which are all appreciated, I have the notion that "tá failte romhat" evokes quite a wide range of viewpoints from people. I very interested in learning the important Irish phrases and idioms, and just because I'm curious, I'd like to understand which phrases are considered original and which are considered borrowed.

Thanks again for your input, it's very much appreciated. I'll try to be more careful in the future not to set off chain reactions.

Le meas,

Dáithí

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Have a listen to a ten minute lecture on the dangers of literal translation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/realmedia/blas/fidelma.ram

The speaker is Fidelma Ní Ghallchobhair from the
terminology committee for the Irish language ó Thír na Fadúdaise.

I think you will need a RealPlayer audio applet installed on your PC to hear this file. If you don't have one, you can download a free one from

http://www.real.com/

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 80
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
Mar eolas daoibh, friends and family of mine, mainly in the North in the 50s, 60s and and 70s, were taught in school to respond to "go raibh maith agat" with "go mba hé dhuit".
I don't see that mentioned anywhere here, dá bhrí sin, ceist agam oraibh: cad é bhur mbarúil ar an clásal foshuiteach seo?
Le meas,
Chris

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 778
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ceann maith, agus blas maith air.

Sé an chaoi gur fhás na canúintí as a chéile, agus dá bhrí sin go bhfuil nósanna éagsúla ann.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 792
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

As a further data point in the "Tá Failte romhat" discussion:

I have one of my father's schoolbooks, which he used in 1953. The author is Cormac Ó Cadhlaigh.

According to it, the appropriate reply to "Go raibh maith agat" is "Tá failte romhat"

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus,

Go raith maith agat. PLEASE RESOND WITH YOU KNOW WHAT :)

Thanks for the data point. I'm very interested in learning when "(tá) failte fomhat" entered the Irish language. Does anybody know? I'd like to use this phrase as a gateway into beginning to understand the vast body of Irish phrases. By knowing where things come from, whether borrowed or not, I find I learn better. I also enjoy learning about the history of the language.

Now that I'm looking out for the phrase, I'm noticing it more and more. In the Ros na Rún episode from 2 days ago, I heard two different characters, at different times, use "tá failte romhat" in response to "go raith máith agat." I'm not trying to use Ros na Rún as the standard bearer of Irish, but it's been a great way for me to improve what little Irish I have, and I just mention it as another data point.

I did some meager research on google and some on-line dictionaries and it appears that "welcome" may have come from the Norse. Could it be that "tá failte romhat" has a different origin than English? It's also tempting to think that the country of "one hundred thousand welcomes" started to use "tá failte romhat" on their own (my last remark is not to be taken seriously; I'm just trying to be funny)

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 05:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I took a look at the website Lúcas mentioned above in regard to the dangers of literal translation and found it very interesting, especially on how to say "I'm married with three children." I only wish Fidelma would have included "tá fáilte romhat" as one of the examples.

When I compare the two phrases "you're welcome" and "tá fáilte romhat" I don't see a literal translation. In the English version we're saying "you" are in the state of being welcomed, yet in the Irish version we're saying a welcome is in front, or before, "you."

If we were to literally translate "you're welcome" into Irish, wouldn't we have "tá tu fáilte" with the fáilte coming from the verb fáiltigh, as we would have with "tá sé briste" (it is broken) with "briste" coming from bris?

Dáithí

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 85
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
Mar eolas daoibh.
One of my friends who is an Irish teacher, and who was among those who suggested "go mba hé dhuit" to me as the response he learned in school to "go raibh maith agat", was so intrigued by my account of this discussion that he thought he'd do some digging on the matter.
He came up with documentary evidence that "tá failte romhat" has been well established in Irish since the 1930s, and has certainly been appearing in dictionaries and school text books since that time, suggesting a high degree of acceptability.
He also told me that, although he has a "learned aversion" to the phrase that goes back to his schooldays, his wife, who is a native speaker from Donegal, has not problem with this use of the phrase at all.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A O'diocháin a chara,

Very interesting. Looks like we have pushed the clock back a few more decades on "tá failte romhat." Previously, thanks to your input, the clock was in the 1950's.

Could you clarify your last paragraph, please, in regard to your use of the word "phrase?" I'm not sure if your talking about "tá failte romhat" or "go mba hé dhuit."

And if I can ask another question please. When you used "dhuit" instead of duit, does this indicate that your friend speaks the Connemara dialect? The reason I'm curious is that I heard yet another character on Ros na Rún use "tá failte romhat" and I was starting to form the opinion that perhaps "tá failte romhat" was particular to the Connemara dialect, and perhaps not all of the dialects. I understand that not all of the characters on Ros na Rún speak the Connemara dialect, but to hear is so often on the show, and knowing that the show is about a town Connemara, I'm just trying to put two and two together.

Can anyone explain why I never hear "go mba hé dhuit on Ros na Rún?" It always seems to be "tá failte romhat" in response to "go raith maith agat."

Le meas,

Dáithí

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 86
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 04:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dháithí, a chara,
The phrase I was referring to in the last paragraph was "tá failte romhat".
The speakers who suggested "go mba hé dhuit" to me were Ulster speakers.
I'm not competent to comment on when "duit" appears rather than "dhuit" other than to say that "duit" seems to appear often in Ulster when I've heard "dhuit" in other varieties - although this observation reflects my limited experience.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 831
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 08:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

it is "duit" according to the Offical standard, but is frequently said as "dhuit" - as far as I know in both Munster and Connacht dialects.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis, a chara,

Tá an ceart agat mar is gnáth. In Munster Irish, according to Stair na Gaeilge,
Is gnáth go séimhtear túschonsan na bhforainmneacha réamhfhocal ma bhíonn guta roimpu, m. sh., bhuin/bhain sé dhiom/dhom é.
That is why dhuit is usually pronounced in the greeting Dia dhuit, since dhuit follows a vowel, while duit is usually pronounced in the phrase Cad is ainm duit since the prepositional pronoun is preceded by a consonant. See p. 505, sec. 6.7 in the chapter Gaeilge na Mumhan.

Ó Siadhail points out that the Cois Fharraige dialect uses
dhomdhúinn
dhuitdhaoibh
dhó, dhi...........dhóiobh
regarless of the word preceding it. See Lesson 23.


(Message edited by lúcas on January 30, 2005)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Seán O' Tool
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Posted From: 83.70.192.123
Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2005 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

tá failte romhat = you are welcome here.


go raith maith agat = Thank you.



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