mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through January 29, 2005 » Sort out a dispute please « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Declan Joyce (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 212.2.170.98
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 01:19 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I got a Xmas card which said"beannachtai an tseisuir"which would appear to mean 'seasons blessings"
I thought that it should be "Beannachtai na seasuir" blessings of the season... as in beannachtai na nollag etc etc.
Long winded and acrimonious discussion is still going on... Please are there any experts on this board who would offer an opinion..

Go raibh mile maith agaibh

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kay
Member
Username: Kay

Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 05:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Declan, a chara,

Séasúr is a masculine word and Nollaig is a feminine word.

Now in the phrases you mention both words are in the genitive case.

In the genitive of a feminine singular word the "an" changes to "na" and in the case of Nollaig the final i is dropped, and in the case of séasúir a t is added.

If you go to
http://www.gaeilgenaseachtaine.com/alt.html

There is a more detailed explanation.

Beannachtaí an tSéasúir would be the correct way to put it.

Kay.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 212.2.171.103
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 05:58 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Kay

Couldn't be more clear... Large doses of
humble pie on the way

thank you for taking the time to clear it up
DEC

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

declan Joyce (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 194.165.160.222
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 02:26 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Kay .. checked that out.. excellent.. one more thing please.

Is there a rule of thumb for distinguishing
masc. and fem. nouns as Gaeilge?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

An_mídheach_mealltach
Member
Username: An_mídheach_mealltach

Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 08:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

maculine nouns tend to end with a broad consonant and feminine with a slender one. That's the general rule.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 341
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 05:19 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes, onced learned it's pretty much second nature to tell whether a noun is masculine or feminine. Firstly, there's "special endings" which may determine the gender of the noun (for instance, words ending in "óg" are feminine, words ending in "óir" are all masculine). If there's no "special ending", then you can tell by the last vowel sound in the word.

As for "Nollaig" changing to "Nollag" in the genetive, this is completely irregular, just in case you've been trying to find out why. You'll also find that it's completely backwards with the names of the provinces aswell -- one would think that their genetive should be their nominative and vice versa...

"Séasúr" is masculine, so you have:

an séasúr
na séasúir
beannachtaí an tséasúir
beannachtaí na séasúr

and here's a feminine one:

an tsráid
na sráideanna
barr na sráide
barr na sráideanna

Looks complicated, but like learning to walk, learning to talk, learning to play an instrument, learning to ride a bike, learning to drive... it all becomes second nature.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Declan Joyce (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 194.165.160.21
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 08:16 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Yes.. Il'l take your word for it....!!!!

Go raibh mile maith agaib.. for that excellent
explanation.
I appreciate your time

Dec

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kay
Member
Username: Kay

Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Declan agus a chairde,
There are only ten irregular nouns in Irish and "Nollaig" isn't one of them. "Nollaig" belongs to the fifth declension and is regular. Incidently "namhaid" which also belongs to the fifth declension and ends in a slender consonant is masculine.

There isn't an easy rule of thumb for gender, if you want to be accurate. You need to consult a grammar and a dictionary. If it is any consolation some of us still need to even after fifty years of learning.
Good luck with learning Irish.

Ps for the ten irregular nouns see
http://www.gaeilgenaseachtaine.com/ainnrialta.cfm

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 01:23 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

.. it's completely backwards with the names of the provinces aswell -- one would think that their genetive should be their nominative and vice versa...

Is lagiolra bunaithe ar ainm treibhe gan ceann acu:

Laighin > C. Laighean
Ulaidh > C. Uladh
Mumha(in) > C. Mumhan

Connachta > C. Chonnacht.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 351
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 05:59 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There are only ten irregular nouns in Irish and "Nollaig" isn't one of them. "Nollaig" belongs to the fifth declension and is regular. Incidently "namhaid" which also belongs to the fifth declension and ends in a slender consonant is masculine.



Bullshit.

You can easily say that any language has no rules whatsoever (and in essence they don't). What we do is formulate "rules" that aid in the learning of the language. If one is fluent in a language, then they don't need to think about the words they're stringing together (just like when they're playing the guitar, they're not chanting E F Aminor Bflat) and you won't meet a word you don't recognize and have to try to pick a rule which might fit it properly.

We formulate these rules so that when people who are not fluent meet a word they do not recognize, that they might be able to "figure out" how to work with it. The declensions are, in my opinion, a load of bullshit. They don't help. What I do is teach the special endings; after that, I tell them to work with the last vowel. Nothing contains quite as much bullshit as the "fifth" declension. Take:

cara

Here's how I would "figure out" how to work with it:

an cara
na caraí
ainm an chara
ainmneacha na gcaraí

but then some-one goes and tells me that even though it's regular, it's done as follows:

an cara
na cairde
ainm an charad
ainmneacha na gcairde

Bullshit!

Similarly with:

Nollaig
Laighin
Ulaidh
Mumhain
Connachta
namhaid
ainm
bean

To say that these nouns are regular is to throw all the other (very helpful) rules out the window.

Sorry if this post sounds a bit hasty, I just get a bit irritated when a learner gets told that the likes of "Nollaig" are regular, because that'll just confuse them. If it were regular it would be:

an nollaig
na nollaigí ( "eanna" become "aí" with certain consonants, m.sh. an oifig, na hoifigí )
i lár na nollaige
i lár na nollaigí

If I were to make a wild guess at how many "irregular" nouns there are in Irish -- by irregular I mean that you would fail if you were to "figure out" by yourself -- then I'd say in the vicinity of 100 words. A lot of them are simple things like:

an altóir

Words ending in "óir" are masculine, this one's feminine.

an fharraige

Same reason.

Also there's ones that are way way way out there:

an bhean
na mná


I hate the declensions and I loathe the fifth. The only time you'll hear me say "declension" is when referring to the "first" declension, words like:

an fear
an béal
an gluaisteán

reason being that these words, which I like to call "the ones that get an i", get special treatment in the vocative case:

an fear
a fhir!

na fir
a fheara!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 352
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 06:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There isn't an easy rule of thumb for gender, if you want to be accurate. You need to consult a grammar and a dictionary. If it is any consolation some of us still need to even after fifty years of learning.



I missed this part.

I'm not even fluent in Irish yet and I can tell the gender of a noun. One very simple concept tells me: its sound.

Firstly I know the gender of the following nouns because they have a "special ending":

bábóg
múinteoir
dochtúir
litir
dornálaíocht
féachaint

And when it doesn't have a "special ending", I tell by the last vowel:

bád
cáis

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 07:33 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

B'fhiú d'intinn a shocrú sula mbuailfeá na cnaipí a Fhear na mBróg. Tá go leor ráite ansiúd a dtiocfaidh tú siar air ar ball. Bhí tú ag gabháil amú agus solas agat, an t-eolas cruinn seo, fágaim:

There are only ten irregular nouns in Irish and 'Nollaig' isn't one of them. 'Nollaig' belongs to the fifth declension and is regular. Incidently 'namhaid' which also belongs to the fifth declension and ends in a slender consonant is masculine.

Mholfainn duit scathamh a shiúl agus súil a chaitheamh arís ar ar bhreacais, mar a dhéanfadh fear maith.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 353
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 08:43 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Ní aontaím leat.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 766
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Agus an cead sin agat. Ach is moladh maith atá ann.

Ní hionann "níl na díchlaontaí usáideach domsa" agus "níl iontu ach cac".

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An chaoi le teanga a fhoghlaim:

Fáisc do bhéal,
maolaigh do chluasa is
crom do cheann.

Seansagart 98 bl. d'aois, as Indreabhán, a casadh dom c. 1996 i Raghnallach, ba shin a chuala sé ón a athair mór.
Shíl mé ar feadh tamall gurbh aisteach nár 'bioraigh do chluasa, géaraigh do shúile agus oscail do bhéal' nó rud éigin mar sin a bheadh ann ó cheart. Tá a chiall féin leis an seanráiteas áfach.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 767
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tá muis.

Is dócha gurbh "céansú" atá i gceist le maolú do chluasa - i. éisteacht go cruinn?

Déirtear nach dtagann ciall roimh aois - creidim gurbh taithí seachas aois an t-eochair áfach. Is furaist diultú do rud toisc gan taithí a bheith agat air.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:27 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Chíoramar an scéal ag an am.
1. Daingniú intinne, nó fáisceadh roimh an obair,
2. an féincheansú, nó an umhlaíocht roimh an ábhar,
agus
3. tosú, nó cromadh chun oibre/léamh.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 769
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:22 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Sin an rud faoi dea náth mar sin. Bíonn saibhreas mhór i mbeagán focail!

Tosach feasa fiafraitheacht!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Kay
Member
Username: Kay

Post Number: 25
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 05:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Nach iontach an snáth é seo - 'leasú' ann i mbeagnach gach brí den fhocal

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

(Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.193.23.3
Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 03:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I can tell the gender of a noun. An pheidhb atá againn, ná, ná, ná...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 375
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 08:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Wish I had the courage to anonymously post like that.

"againn" refers to "us", so where do exactly do you fit the picture?



©Daltaí na Gaeilge