Author |
Message |
Declan Joyce (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 01:19 pm: |
|
I got a Xmas card which said"beannachtai an tseisuir"which would appear to mean 'seasons blessings" I thought that it should be "Beannachtai na seasuir" blessings of the season... as in beannachtai na nollag etc etc. Long winded and acrimonious discussion is still going on... Please are there any experts on this board who would offer an opinion.. Go raibh mile maith agaibh |
|
Kay
Member Username: Kay
Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 05:59 pm: |
|
Declan, a chara, Séasúr is a masculine word and Nollaig is a feminine word. Now in the phrases you mention both words are in the genitive case. In the genitive of a feminine singular word the "an" changes to "na" and in the case of Nollaig the final i is dropped, and in the case of séasúir a t is added. If you go to http://www.gaeilgenaseachtaine.com/alt.html There is a more detailed explanation. Beannachtaí an tSéasúir would be the correct way to put it. Kay. |
|
(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 05:58 am: |
|
Kay Couldn't be more clear... Large doses of humble pie on the way thank you for taking the time to clear it up DEC |
|
declan Joyce (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 02:26 pm: |
|
Kay .. checked that out.. excellent.. one more thing please. Is there a rule of thumb for distinguishing masc. and fem. nouns as Gaeilge? |
|
An_mídheach_mealltach
Member Username: An_mídheach_mealltach
Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2004
| Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 08:25 pm: |
|
maculine nouns tend to end with a broad consonant and feminine with a slender one. That's the general rule. |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 341 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 05:19 am: |
|
Yes, onced learned it's pretty much second nature to tell whether a noun is masculine or feminine. Firstly, there's "special endings" which may determine the gender of the noun (for instance, words ending in "óg" are feminine, words ending in "óir" are all masculine). If there's no "special ending", then you can tell by the last vowel sound in the word. As for "Nollaig" changing to "Nollag" in the genetive, this is completely irregular, just in case you've been trying to find out why. You'll also find that it's completely backwards with the names of the provinces aswell -- one would think that their genetive should be their nominative and vice versa... "Séasúr" is masculine, so you have: an séasúr na séasúir beannachtaí an tséasúir beannachtaí na séasúr and here's a feminine one: an tsráid na sráideanna barr na sráide barr na sráideanna Looks complicated, but like learning to walk, learning to talk, learning to play an instrument, learning to ride a bike, learning to drive... it all becomes second nature. |
|
Declan Joyce (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 08:16 am: |
|
Yes.. Il'l take your word for it....!!!! Go raibh mile maith agaib.. for that excellent explanation. I appreciate your time Dec |
|
Kay
Member Username: Kay
Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
|
Declan agus a chairde, There are only ten irregular nouns in Irish and "Nollaig" isn't one of them. "Nollaig" belongs to the fifth declension and is regular. Incidently "namhaid" which also belongs to the fifth declension and ends in a slender consonant is masculine. There isn't an easy rule of thumb for gender, if you want to be accurate. You need to consult a grammar and a dictionary. If it is any consolation some of us still need to even after fifty years of learning. Good luck with learning Irish. Ps for the ten irregular nouns see http://www.gaeilgenaseachtaine.com/ainnrialta.cfm |
|
Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 01:23 pm: |
|
.. it's completely backwards with the names of the provinces aswell -- one would think that their genetive should be their nominative and vice versa... Is lagiolra bunaithe ar ainm treibhe gan ceann acu: Laighin > C. Laighean Ulaidh > C. Uladh Mumha(in) > C. Mumhan Connachta > C. Chonnacht. |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 351 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 05:59 am: |
|
quote:There are only ten irregular nouns in Irish and "Nollaig" isn't one of them. "Nollaig" belongs to the fifth declension and is regular. Incidently "namhaid" which also belongs to the fifth declension and ends in a slender consonant is masculine. Bullshit. You can easily say that any language has no rules whatsoever (and in essence they don't). What we do is formulate "rules" that aid in the learning of the language. If one is fluent in a language, then they don't need to think about the words they're stringing together (just like when they're playing the guitar, they're not chanting E F Aminor Bflat) and you won't meet a word you don't recognize and have to try to pick a rule which might fit it properly. We formulate these rules so that when people who are not fluent meet a word they do not recognize, that they might be able to "figure out" how to work with it. The declensions are, in my opinion, a load of bullshit. They don't help. What I do is teach the special endings; after that, I tell them to work with the last vowel. Nothing contains quite as much bullshit as the "fifth" declension. Take: cara Here's how I would "figure out" how to work with it: an cara na caraí ainm an chara ainmneacha na gcaraí but then some-one goes and tells me that even though it's regular, it's done as follows: an cara na cairde ainm an charad ainmneacha na gcairde Bullshit! Similarly with: Nollaig Laighin Ulaidh Mumhain Connachta namhaid ainm bean To say that these nouns are regular is to throw all the other (very helpful) rules out the window. Sorry if this post sounds a bit hasty, I just get a bit irritated when a learner gets told that the likes of "Nollaig" are regular, because that'll just confuse them. If it were regular it would be: an nollaig na nollaigí ( "eanna" become "aí" with certain consonants, m.sh. an oifig, na hoifigí ) i lár na nollaige i lár na nollaigí If I were to make a wild guess at how many "irregular" nouns there are in Irish -- by irregular I mean that you would fail if you were to "figure out" by yourself -- then I'd say in the vicinity of 100 words. A lot of them are simple things like: an altóir Words ending in "óir" are masculine, this one's feminine. an fharraige Same reason. Also there's ones that are way way way out there: an bhean na mná I hate the declensions and I loathe the fifth. The only time you'll hear me say "declension" is when referring to the "first" declension, words like: an fear an béal an gluaisteán reason being that these words, which I like to call "the ones that get an i", get special treatment in the vocative case: an fear a fhir! na fir a fheara! |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 352 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 06:08 am: |
|
quote:There isn't an easy rule of thumb for gender, if you want to be accurate. You need to consult a grammar and a dictionary. If it is any consolation some of us still need to even after fifty years of learning. I missed this part. I'm not even fluent in Irish yet and I can tell the gender of a noun. One very simple concept tells me: its sound. Firstly I know the gender of the following nouns because they have a "special ending": bábóg múinteoir dochtúir litir dornálaíocht féachaint And when it doesn't have a "special ending", I tell by the last vowel: bád cáis |
|
Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 07:33 am: |
|
B'fhiú d'intinn a shocrú sula mbuailfeá na cnaipí a Fhear na mBróg. Tá go leor ráite ansiúd a dtiocfaidh tú siar air ar ball. Bhí tú ag gabháil amú agus solas agat, an t-eolas cruinn seo, fágaim: There are only ten irregular nouns in Irish and 'Nollaig' isn't one of them. 'Nollaig' belongs to the fifth declension and is regular. Incidently 'namhaid' which also belongs to the fifth declension and ends in a slender consonant is masculine. Mholfainn duit scathamh a shiúl agus súil a chaitheamh arís ar ar bhreacais, mar a dhéanfadh fear maith. |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 353 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 08:43 am: |
|
Ní aontaím leat. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 766 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:01 am: |
|
Agus an cead sin agat. Ach is moladh maith atá ann. Ní hionann "níl na díchlaontaí usáideach domsa" agus "níl iontu ach cac". |
|
Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:04 am: |
|
An chaoi le teanga a fhoghlaim: Fáisc do bhéal, maolaigh do chluasa is crom do cheann. Seansagart 98 bl. d'aois, as Indreabhán, a casadh dom c. 1996 i Raghnallach, ba shin a chuala sé ón a athair mór. Shíl mé ar feadh tamall gurbh aisteach nár 'bioraigh do chluasa, géaraigh do shúile agus oscail do bhéal' nó rud éigin mar sin a bheadh ann ó cheart. Tá a chiall féin leis an seanráiteas áfach. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 767 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:08 am: |
|
Tá muis. Is dócha gurbh "céansú" atá i gceist le maolú do chluasa - i. éisteacht go cruinn? Déirtear nach dtagann ciall roimh aois - creidim gurbh taithí seachas aois an t-eochair áfach. Is furaist diultú do rud toisc gan taithí a bheith agat air. |
|
Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 09:27 am: |
|
Chíoramar an scéal ag an am. 1. Daingniú intinne, nó fáisceadh roimh an obair, 2. an féincheansú, nó an umhlaíocht roimh an ábhar, agus 3. tosú, nó cromadh chun oibre/léamh. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 769 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
|
Sin an rud faoi dea náth mar sin. Bíonn saibhreas mhór i mbeagán focail! Tosach feasa fiafraitheacht! |
|
Kay
Member Username: Kay
Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Friday, January 21, 2005 - 05:54 pm: |
|
Nach iontach an snáth é seo - 'leasú' ann i mbeagnach gach brí den fhocal |
|
(Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Saturday, January 22, 2005 - 03:53 pm: |
|
I can tell the gender of a noun. An pheidhb atá againn, ná, ná, ná... |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 375 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 08:31 am: |
|
Wish I had the courage to anonymously post like that. "againn" refers to "us", so where do exactly do you fit the picture? |
|