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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 09, 2005 » Plimseur? « Previous Next »

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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I want to buy the plimseur cd's. any ifno about this study aid? I am more interested(right at this point) in learning to speak before reading and writing
grma!

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Chinita
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Username: Chinita

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dan, I have purchased Pimsleur for Mandarin, and I will tell you my opinion. I absolutely hate it as a learning tool. It is for learning by listening, which might be acceptable for some, but not me. I am the type of person that likes to see the grammar and written form when learning a new language.

I'm not sure about the Pimsleur Irish, but if it's like the Mandarin one, I would say it might be good to get an idea of what irish sounds like, but that's about it. Not a good method to learn more in depth about any language. I prefer my book Irish on Your Own! or also known as Now You're Talking! in Ireland. I also use Buntús Cainte and Progress in Irish.

That is my opinion. I prefer a good old book with a grammar aid for learning. Buntús Cainte comes with tapes, so you can hear them speak. Another option is to find someone who can do voice chat and teach you correct pronunciation. I have a few that help me, and they are great! Right, D? :P

To read other peoples opinions on Pimsleurs:
http://www.phrasebase.com/forum/read.php?TID=1059

(Message edited by chinita on January 14, 2005)

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 143
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

i have the pimsleur irish. i think it would be good to get a few phrases under your belt quickly if that is what you want, however...

there are only 8 instead of 30 lessons (not the "comprehensive" versions)

While they claim to have native speakers doing the talking, it is veeeeeerrrry county Kerry. Not that that is bad, mind you, but it puts you at a disadvantage in that it departs from standard pronunciation (or even just the other dialects) considerably. They seem to even use a dialectical name for the language itself (Gaeling instead of Gaeilge). My recommendation is to do the lessons and then have a teacher correct the five or six major points of pronunciation that will get you odd looks in mixed company.

However, as it only runs $20, it seemed to be a decent jumping off point. my mother, who has a mental block with languages, was able to do them with very little trouble.

if you can look on napster or limewire or drumbeat or something, and download the 8 lessons for free, you will definitely have nothing to lose by trying...

I suppose my real only caution would be not to let pimsleur be your irish teacher. if you do them, definitely take classes afterwards. you will find that the first 4 or 5 weeks will simply be review and correction of your pimsleur.

that's my 2¢

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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

OY VEH IS MIR! Thanks Chinita and Antaine a chara.
I am glad I did not buy that. saw it in a bookstore, but wanted to ask in the forum first. I dont get the Kerry aspect, I don't know which dialect is for me. there is one teacher here in SEattle But she teaches Ulster dialect, and from reading here that is not what everyone is learning. as for my self I " learned French and Latin" in HS and college but alas have forgotten most of it. I can say for me, that hearing the speach and sound would give me a better grasp of the language than reading I learned simple Spanish ( enough to travel in South America)
by hearing. speak first then learn to read and language rules etc. but no short cuts or any of this modernising hooey! GRMA Chinita & Antaine

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cúrsa Closamhairc Gaeilge is excellent for Ulster Irish. It's structured very much like Buntús Cainte. I wouldn't worry about "what everyone is learning." Go ahead and study Ulster Irish first, and then you'll be prepared to do a better job than "everyone" at learning whatever it is they're learning. The more Gaelic dialects you study (both Irish and Scottish), the better you'll understand everything you learn about any of them. One at a time, of course; and step by step.

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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I am not really interested in Scotts or the Ulster dialect, that seems too harsh for my ear. That it may give me more freedom in the language; It seems too harsh for my ear. I am seeking to learn to speak THEN read and write the language, as would any child entering any educational system. not meaning to offend, just stating what works for me. think Wittegenstein GRMA Pheadar

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 144
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

my main beef with the kerry dialect is that they seem to disregard broad and slender vowel effects of accented consonants, and pronounce everything with the slender effect "buh VAAH latt" instead of "bun WAAH latt" (that's one, but pops up in a couple phrases), using "GWAILing" instead of "GWAILguh" for the language name (that's two)...and there were one or two others...if there is a teacher in the area, i say go for it, and then take the class...it'll get you speaking some phrases used every day pretty quickly...do it with a friend so you have someone with whom to converse, but then take the class and get straightened out on the few points of pronunciation. if i can think of the other's i'll post them here...

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 09:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I really enjoyed reading this post, especially in regards to why the Pimsleur CD's have different sounds for some words. I've bought and occassionally use the Pimsleur CD. I was disappointed after listening to all four of them to realize they cover such a little amount of Irish.

One benefit I find is their interactive nature, with the listener, especially with the interrogative forms of verbs, albeit few in number. The CD's do give you that - good practice with fundamental Irish dialog.

Dáithí

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 575
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, if you have can find it at an affordable price then go for it. I've listened to the course and it's good, natural Irish in the Kerry dialect that I speak myself. Don't expect to be able to speak Irish after you have finished it, though. You will be able to present yourself, say where your from and enquire about the other person's health and family. After that you'll have to switch to English. In other words, it's a good course but with an extremely limited vocabulary.

I am seeking to learn to speak THEN read and write the language, as would any child entering any educational system. not meaning to offend, just stating what works for me.

If it works for you, then go for it. However, I have to say I doubt it will work. In English-speaking countries (=countries where most people are monolinguals, no offence intentended and I do recognize all the exceptions) the idea that one should learn "as a child" seems to be popular. In countries where people actually have to learn to speak more than their own language(s) that idea is smiled upon - it does not work. A child is constantly surrounded by people speaking a language, it hears its parents speak it year after year and then slowly starts to speak it. Of course it's possible to learn a language in the same way, but that requires going somewhere where that language is spoken all the time. One cannot be surrounded by one's own language and hope to learn a new language just be speaking it unless one has people to speak to. On the other hand, if you plan to go the Gaeltacht for a longer stay or if you have friends/neighbours with whom you can talk in Irish, then the idea works very well.

my main beef with the kerry dialect is that they seem to disregard broad and slender vowel effects of accented consonants, and pronounce everything with the slender effect "buh VAAH latt" instead of "bun WAAH latt" (that's one, but pops up in a couple phrases), using "GWAILing" instead of "GWAILguh" for the language name (that's two)...

A Antaine, a chara - I really hope this is a joke. Otherwise, here are my replies:

- they seem to disregard broad and slender vowel effects of accented consonants

Wrong, vowels are affected by the quality of the preceding consonant in Kerry just as in other Irish dialects.

- and pronounce everything with the slender effect

- Extremely wrong, of course there is a distinction between broad and slender.

- "buh VAAH latt" instead of "bun WAAH latt

- I guess what you mean here is [b@ vah l´at] instead of [b@ wah l´at] and that the "n" in "bun" is a typo. I don't quite get this - there is a clear distinction between broad bh/mh [v] and slender [v´] in Kerry.

- using "GWAILing" instead of "GWAILguh" for the language name

- Again, I guess you mean Gaelainn [ge:lin´] instead of Gaeilge [ge:l´g´@]. The [ng]-sound you suggests is a part of Kerry Irish is found in Cork and Waterford, in Kerry it's usually "nn". Anyway, in Munster the language is called Gaelainn, in Connacht it's called Gaeilge and in Ulster it's Gaelic [ge:l´ik´]. All three are perfectly correct.

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Chinita
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Username: Chinita

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dan,

I agree with Peadar. Don't study what everyone else is learning. If you want to learn Ulster, then learn it. I know you said it's harsh for your ears, but for me, I prefer Ulster. Tá mé ag foghlaim Gaeilge Connacht agus Gaeilge Uladh agus is fearr liom Gaeilge Uladh. They've just updated the Giota Beag website. Tá sé bándearg anois... Giota Beag is a good website for learning Ulster Irish, atleast I think so.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/learners/index.shtml

A good study aid for practicing vocabulary that I use is Seans Eile. I find it useful, even though you might have to edit the quizzes to fix some mistakes.
http://nualeargais.ie/seansEile/index.html

Ádh mór!

Christine

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 145
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas -

well, that's one of the big downsides to having nothing written to go along with the tapes.

Pimsleur does seem to use "air WAAH latt", but 'buh VAAH lum" which is where i got the broad/slender thing. I had mentioned it this past Jamison to an Ulster speaker, and their reply was, "oh, yeah...that's very Munster"

perhaps what i noticed was limited to the phrases used on the tapes, of which there are not many, and i erroneously assumed that it was a pattern which carried through the dialect as a whole...

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Dan
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Username: Dan

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 03:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Chinita a chara I tried those links thanks. I do prefer the the Donegal but if I have to work with Ulster I will.
But there still is the problem of finding a local group with whom I can learn with. One can study all day and night but I still need to speak ane hear. A dios mio por que mi castigas senor dio? Well gonna go and find alocal class maybe enough beginners to get a group going with . gracias!

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas: "...in Connacht it's called Gaeilge..."

And Gaeilinn, and Gaeigle, and Gaeilg.

Dan: "I do prefer the Donegal but if I have to work with Ulster I will."

When we speak of Ulster Irish we mean Donegal Irish. We're not talking about Belfast or BBC Irish. "Cúrsa Closamhairc Gaeilge" uses speakers from the various Gaeltacht areas of County Donegal, so you get to hear the distinguishing characterists of each, imitate each, and gradually mold your own pronunciation according to what sounds best to you.

If you think Scottish Gaelic is "too harsh for your ear," spend a little time listening to Radio nan Gaidheal, and maybe you'll change your mind:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/alba/radio/on_demand.shtml

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.182.140
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dan If there is only one teacher available in your area your choices are either to study her Ulster Irish and go on from there or sit home hoping that someone speaking the dialect of your choice arrives in town. A live teacher of any dialect beats all the books and tapes you can buy. And try asking the tape a question.

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Kevin L
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Posted From: 216.124.153.98
Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I just finished working throught the Pimsleur set. The lessons fit very well into my 40 minute drive to work and back. This was my first exposure to speaking the language, other than what I encounter as a trad. musician. I feel like I have good command of the material presented. I do not know the language so I cannot speak of its accuracy, but I found the method to be well thought out and I had very little trouble with retention. I purchased it to serve as a starting point to get the language in my head and on my toungue. Now it is time to get the pencil out and really study. I am glad to have found this site as a resource.

The Pimsleur would be greatly enhanced with a text.

Kevin L

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 186
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

yes and no...pimsleur's strength lies in its approach to retention...you learn the language as you did when you were an infant learning english...repetition and context

unless anyone can say definitively otherwise, it is all accurate, and the models are native speakers (or so it says). my only (and i do mean only) complaint was that they picked what to me seemed an odd choice for dialect, but it is accurate to that (Dingle) dialect.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 590
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

they picked what to me seemed an odd choice for dialect

I don't understand why you keep going on complaining about Kerry Irish. It's one of the three main dialects of Irish. The Irish dialect of, say, Tashkent or Delhi would have been odd; Dingle Irish is a perfectly natural choice.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 188
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

not that there's anything wrong with kerry - it's just that some of the things i noted the speakers on the tape saying i've never heard anyplace but those tapes, not even at a daltaí weekend.

I don't know if the rest of the munster gaeltacht is identical to the dingle penin, but it just strikes me that for either sheer numbers or closeness to the "official standard" that either connemara or donegal would have been more logical choices.

don't get me wrong, i'm of munster descent myself, and i mostly opt for munster phrases over the others when presented with that as an option.

even the TY books, which are ostensibly based on munster don't seem to have the particular things to which i referred earlier...

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 591
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 03:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

First of all, sorry if I came across as somewhat blunt in my previous post.

I don't know if the rest of the munster gaeltacht is identical to the dingle penin,

Remarkably much so, yes. For the trained ears there are obvious diffrences between the four Gaeltacht areas of Kerry and Cork, but the dialect of these four areas are much closer to each other than the dialects of Galway (not to speak of Connach) or Donegal.

it just strikes me that for either sheer numbers or closeness to the "official standard" that either connemara or donegal would have been more logical choices

I don't quite understand you here. In terms of closeness to the standard, Munster and Donegal cannot even be compared - Munster is very close to the standard while Donegal is very far from it. Ask any speaker of Donegal Irish and they'll confirm it - the standard is very impopular with most native speakers in Donegal. If we then compare Munster Irish and the Irish of Cois Fhairrge, we again get the same result. Munster Irish is closer to the standard. Besides, such an excellent course as Learning Irish already exits in the Cois Fhairrge dialect that it's hardly necessary to publish another one.

The one dialect that at least in some regards (read: pronunciation) is closer than Munster Irish to the standard is the dialects of Mayo, that of Tuar Mhic Éadaigh in particular. But then the sheer numbers could be taken into account, the number of people speaking Munster Irish is about many times higher than the number speaking Mayo Irish.

even the TY books, which are ostensibly based on munster don't seem to have the particular things to which i referred earlier...

The rumour that the Teach Yourself Irish book is in Munster Irish is often repeated, but it's false none the less. The reason for this rumour is that an older version (published in the 1960s) of Teach Yourself Irish was based on Munster Irish, that of Múscraí to be exact. It was an excellent course, by the way - second only to Learning Irish. The new course by the same name, written by Diarmuid Ó Sé, does not teach even half the things that the old one did*. What is more, it is based on the standard language, not on the Munster dialect.

*This is a general feature of the Teach Yourself books - they published a number of courses in the 1960s and then republished them into the 80s. In the 90s they hired new authors to write new books with the same titles. In each and every case that I've seen (Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Welsh, Serbo-Croatian, Finnish, Persian etc.) the new books are much worse. True, they have a more user friendly lay-out, but they contain about half the number of words that the old ones did and the grammar explanations (the real strength of the old books) have become virtually non-existent.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 189
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think the TY "myth" also comes from phrase choice.

I personally prefer the sound of munster to ulster ::ducks as Lúcas hurls a foclóir at his head:: but both donegal and connemarra have got the numbers on munster, and Connemarra has got the whole close-to-the-standard-thing going on...if dingle and cork are close enuff to possibly be placed in one group for counting population purposes, are connemarra and mayo (and therefore meath) as well?

don't get me wrong, i have nothing against munster, but keeping in mind the goal of pimsleur it just strikes me that others might have been more suitable

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 592
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

if dingle and cork are close enuff to possibly be placed in one group for counting population purposes, are connemarra and mayo (and therefore meath) as well?

No, absolutely not. That's what I tried to say in my previous post. The dialects of Cork and Kerry (the Dingle Gaeltacht is not the only Kerry Gaeltacht) are virtually identical. The dialects of Cois Fhairrge and Mayo are definitely not.

Connemarra has got the whole close-to-the-standard-thing going on

I've lived in the Connemara Gaeltacht for a number of months and I speak the Connemara dialect as well as the Kerry dialect. The Kerry one is definitely closer to the standard, particularly in terms of pronunciation.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 109
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine, a chara,

Don't get me wrong, I like Munster Irish. Since my ancestors are from Ulster, I have chosen to focus on Ulster literature. However, I read Peig and Jimín, two Munster classics, and enjoyed them immensely.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 192
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

eeh...I just like to bust you, a lúcas...

go raibh maith agat arís ar na corrections...



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