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Davide
Member Username: Davide
Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 06:39 am: |
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A chairde, I am writing to you because I am in despair since I cannot get any information on how Standard Irish words spelt in a way far from a dialect pronunciation are pronounced by that dialect's (even Galltacht speakers of that dialect). I have studied on Mícheál Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish" and am very confused about the differences between dialects and the caighdeán oifigiúil. For example, when there is a difference between the normal pronunciation rules of vowels in the Standard spelling and the dialect pronunciation, are a Standard Irish word's vowels pronounced as in the dialect by speakers of that dialect? Ex. is "cat" west of Galway pronounced [ka:t] or [kut] (as in the dialect, as if spelt *cut) when speaking the Standard? And when there is a difference between the normal pronunciation rules of consonants in the Standard spelling and the dialect pronunciation, are a Standard Irish word's consonants pronounced as in the dialect by speakers of that dialect? Ex. is "tuig" pronounced [tig´], or [t´ig´] as in the dialect (as if spelt *tig) when a West Galway Irish speaker pronounces "tuig" in Standard Irish? The 221-222 pages of "Learning Irish" make me wonder about all the difference between the book's spelling and the standard spelling... does a West Galway Irish speaker pronounces the Standard Irish genitive word "crainn" as [kri:N´] when speaking Standard Irish? And "tiomáin" as if spelt *tumáil, múineadh as if spelt *múnadh, "file" as if spelt *filí, "oifig" as if spelt *oifige, "dochtúir" as if spelt *dochtúr, the nominative "tincéir" as if spelt *tincéara, "eireaball" as if spelt *drioball etc...? Or does a certain dialect's speaker, whether a native Gaeltacht speaker or a Galltacht speaker, pronounces STANDARD Irish words (or at least their endings and initial parts...) "reading them" according to the normal rules of pronunciation of their dialect? I am asking this here because I have read that lots of people have used "Learning Irish", which is based on the Cois Fhairrge dialect, as I have. If somebody desirtes to write to me privately, my address is davidetamara["at" symbol here]libero.it Hoping that somebody can help me I thank you with all my heart. Mise le meas Davide Sivero |
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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Post Number: 18 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 05:06 am: |
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Get some of the dialect studies, and read every word. That way you can really get a full grasp of the phonology of whatever dialect you choose. http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/cat_e.html#E.2 This book in particular deals with your problem in detail: Córas fuaimeanna na Gaeilge: na canúintí agus an caighdeán by Mícheál Ó Siadhail and Arndt Wigger http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-11.html And this one describes the dialect that I've settled on as my model, precisely because it has kept closest to the pronunciation of Early Modern Irish: The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo: a phonemic study by Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-9.html Some native speakers are influenced more than others by what they've been told is "standard" or "correct." They will sometimes pronounce differently when reading than they do when speaking naturally, and will use words and forms that are foreign to their dialect when speaking "formally" or "clearly" for the benefit of an audience of learners (or to satisfy their "teachers"). "Learning Irish" includes some notes on "other Connemara dialects," and Ó Siadhail could just as well have based his course on those "other" dialects, in which medial -th- is regularly pronounced. Tomás de Bhaldraithe's "The Irish of Cois Fhairrge, Co. Galway" is likewise based on the dialect of "the eastern area of Cois Fhairrge," and has appendices describing the differences between it and that of "the western area of Cois Fhairrge," i.e. Leitir Mór and the Garumna Islands. In a footnote on page 105 he gives examples of occasional hypercorrection by speakers of the eastern variety: "The use of an intervocalic h seems to be associated in the minds of certain speakers with 'correct' speech, so that it is more often used by such speakers in slow deliberate speech, or in pronouncing words in isolation, than in normal speech. In some instances, when explaining words, speakers have inserted an intervocalic h, where there was no historical justification for such, and where such would never occur in normal speech, e.g. rohu:N < ru:N (rón), drahir' < drà:r' (gen. of *drár), @ tah@ < @ tà: (an t-ádh)." Peadar Ó Gríofa
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Davide
Member Username: Davide
Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 02:16 pm: |
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A Pheadair, a chara, go raibh míle maith agat ar son do fhreagra! Tá "Córas fuaimeanna na Gaeilge: na canúintí agus an caighdeán" léite ar fad agam, chomh maith leis an dá staidéar le Tomás De Bhaldraithe, "Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge-An deilbhíocht" agus "The Irish of Cois Fhairrge, Co. Galway", ach ní thuigim méid chion na canúna ar an nGaeilge chaighdeánach labhartha ag cainteoirí na canúna sin, mar shampla i gcásanna mar na cinn a dtagraím dóibh i mo réamhcheist... Cén chaoi a bhfuil, mar shampla, na focail Gaeilge caighdeánaí úd fuaimnithe ag cainteoirí Gaeilge na Gaillimhe Thiar? Ag súil go bhféadann tú, nó cairde eile den fhóram, cabhair a thabhairt dom, gabhaim buíochas libh go léir. Slán go fóill, Davide |
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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Post Number: 25 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 08:48 am: |
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>Tá "Córas fuaimeanna na Gaeilge: na canúintí agus an caighdeán" léite ar fad agam, chomh maith leis an dá staidéar le Tomás De Bhaldraithe< Bhoil ansin, mholfainn duit éisteacht 'ach uile sheachtain le "Ó na Sceirde Aniar." Séard a thugaim-sa faoi deara go labhraíonn cuide de na daoine go nádúrtha ar fad, cuid eile acu faoi anáil an chaighdeáin, agus gurb iomaí duine a fhuaimníonns focal uaireanta ar chaoi amháin, uaireanta ar chaoi eile, de réir mar a chreideann sé gur ceart nó feiliúnach é a rá, ar ábhar nó ar ábhar eile. Peadar Ó Gríofa
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Davide
Member Username: Davide
Post Number: 4 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 11:32 am: |
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A chara, go raibh míle maith agat as ucht do mholta! Ar chaoi ar bith, maidir le cásanna mar na cinn a raibh mé ag caint fúthu, an féidir a rá go bhfuil claonadh ann an teanga chaighdeánach a fhuaimniú mar "atá sí scríofa", de réir rialacha fuaimnithe rialta chanúint an duine? Míle buíochas, a chara! Slán go fóill, Davide |
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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Post Number: 33 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 03:13 pm: |
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>an féidir a rá go bhfuil claonadh ann an teanga chaighdeánach a fhuaimniú mar "atá sí scríofa"< Is féidir. Bhéarfaidh tú sin faoi deara má éisteann tú le "Leagan Cainte," nó leis an téip seo: http://www.cic.ie/cgi-bin/product.asp?idproduct=570 Ach éist, chomh maith leis sin, leis an gcuid dheireanach den tsean-tsraith léachtaí "Sleasa na Long," atá ar shuíomh Raidió na Gaeltachta faoi láthair. Peadar Ó Gríofa
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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Post Number: 48 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 04:07 pm: |
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>an teanga chaighdeánach a fhuaimniú mar "atá sí scríofa"< Sin rud a dhéantar go ro-mhinic, déarfainn, le focla mar: de, chun, ár, bhur. Peadar Ó Gríofa
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