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Username: Cul_baire

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 02:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

hey guys, this is my first time posrting here.

I feel that the citizens of Ireland, don't use Irish as much as they should anymore. I know that it's not really their fault, but I believe the government should really do something about it. I just feel that it should be embraced even more than ever, now that we have given away so much of the freedoms we fought for to the E.U. What are your thoughts on this?

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Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 04:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think you´ll find your preaching to the converted here Cul_baire , welcome to the forum.
The way to make the changes you talk of is at an individual level , ie , learn the langauge , use it and then pass it on to freinds and family and encourage them to do the same , if you have children how about teaching them or have them go to a gaelic speaking school, if we wait for self-interested goverments to do something we would be waiting a long time

Slan go foil mo chara

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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 04:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

If the Irish government wants to do something competent, coherent, effective, lasting and genuine in favor of the Irish language, they would do well to enlist the collaboration and advice of the Foreign Service Institute of the U.S. Department of State. If the Irish government won't, maybe Fulbright will.

"The northern Mayo dialects are an interesting hybrid of typically Ulster and Connacht features and would have made a good base for a standard language: their demise must be pitied." -- Panu Petteri Höglund

"...Middle Connacht is the only major region relatively unaffected by one or other of those two great linguistic movements -- spreading respectively from the North-East and from the South -- that have largely moulded the history of spoken Irish since the 13th century." -- Seán de Búrca

Please note that Panu's characterization is true of the Irish of Achill, which is indeed a blend of Ulster and North Connacht dialects, but Seán de Búrca's statement describes more accurately the nature of Mayo Irish in general, whose "demise" has not happened, although its long-term survival is certainly threatened. Its decline needs to be stopped and its demise prevented. While every dialect of Irish is especially conservative in some respects and peculiarly innovative in others, Mayo Irish is, among the living, inherited dialects, the most conservative overall, the most "central" and universally intelligible, and if all learners of Irish were well acquainted with it they would better understand many of the differences among the other dialects. They would also learn what features of the current "official standard" orthography are unfaithful to the living tradition and ought to be revised (or reversed), as is recommended by Mícheál Ó Siadhail and Arndt Wigger in their book "Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge" ("The Irish Sound System").

A number of people have told me they agree that the publication of a good course in Mayo Irish is desirable, but the question is who will do the work, and with what resources.

Although in anglicized Ireland there is now considerable enthusiasm for reclaiming the national language, surely there are still countless people who "study" it for scores of years but never acquire or comprehend its sound system and thus can hardly pronounce a single word or phrase of it correctly, do not understand nearly enough of its syntax and morphology and are unable to use its vocabulary in a manner independent of fixed and often altogether erroneous English "equivalents."

If there were a "Mayo Irish Basic Course" comparable to the Foreign Service Institute's "Serbo-Croatian Basic Course," it would be a wonderfully momentous contribution to the efforts being made to preserve the Irish language and multiply the number of truly competent Irish-speakers. That is the kind of course that would really make it possible for learners in Ireland and elsewhere to acquire Irish as a living language (instead of deceiving themselves, as many do, about what constitutes a living language).

Complete, extensive sound recordings of native speakers of the dialect (such as Pádraig S. Ó Murchú, Mary John Tom, Riocard Ó Bruadair and others whom Máirtín Mac Donnchadha interviews on "I gCeartlár na nDaoine" and, especially, on "Parlaimint Mhaigh Eo") would, of course, be an absolutely essential component.

Take a look at the type of course I am recommending: -1701495-5720917?v=glance&s=books

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on January 14, 2005)

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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 04:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

To : Peter Griffin 8/16/2003 10:40 AM
From : Derek

"The Serbo-Croatian Basic presented in two parts, each containing 25 units. Many of the units contain dialogues, grammar and cultural notes, question-and-answer drills, situational drills, and grammatical drills..."

What is so special about that system, Peter? Is there no more information than that available before shelling out the $470?


To : Derek 8/17/2003 1:05 PM
From : Peter K. Griffin

Try it -- you'll like it! The point is that it's serious, well-structured stuff for serious learners, and it works. You can buy Volume 1 first if you want, and when you finish working through that you'll have a good idea what's "so special about that system," and you'll be ready to go ahead and get Volume 2. That's what I did.

<< The present volume has been four years in the making. During this time it has been tested and revised. In the meantime theories of language learning have been proliferated. Were this course to be re-written, it would undoubtedly look quite different. Nevertheless, the basic outlook would of necessity remain -- familiarization with the structure of the language by constant use. It is felt that sufficient material has been given in the course that it may be used effectively either as it is or more imaginatively.

The drills are extensive and are intended for use in full. If there is not class time to do this, the student is to perform all drills outside of class which are not taken up in class. At the same time it is not felt that they exhaust either the possibilities for drill or the student's need for it. They stress the type of exercise in which the response is completely predictable. The less predictable -- 'free' conversation type of drill -- is to be encouraged at later stages of the course. The conversation given at the end of each unit may be used as a bridge to free, or at least freer, conversation. The question and answer drills also serve as models of what may be used in less formal give and take conversation.

The Question and Answer Drill with Prompt is a type which may be used to drill Basic Sentences and which may lead to freer discussion. In this exercise the first sentence is the data sentence, which gives the information on which the student is to base his answer. While the early examples are very simple, it is clear that once the student has gone through a number of units, the data
sentence -- and the answer -- may be quite complex. It is not felt necessary to spell out drills of this sort but the relative complexity of the answer should be controlled. The question may imply 1) a yes or no answer, 2) information based on the data sentence, 3) a conclusion drawn on the basis of the data given, 4) an opinion expressed on the basis of the data given.

Recently an approach to language learning has been suggested (by Earl W. Stevick), which would encourage the introduction of new vocabulary as the need arose for the latter in the student's efforts to express himself. The present course has very deliberately controlled the vocabulary, restricting new words to the Basic Sentences until the later lessons. There is no question but what the introduction of words relevant to the student makes drill and freer conversation much more interesting. However, no matter what supplementary vocabulary lists might be given, they would never satisfy all students. The person primarily concerned with mastering the structure may proceed through the course just as it is. Where much greater involvement of the student would
result, new vocabulary may be introduced. The goal of the course remains mastery of the structure, with a limited but active vocabulary.

...These lessons are intended to give the beginner a useful oral command of the language and a reading knowledge somewhat broader than his speaking ability. It is designed to be used with a native speaker of the language as instructor, the tapes being supplementary.

Given the dialect is obvious that all speakers of Serbo-Croatian do not speak in exactly the same manner. The model for imitation should be one whose language is standard but not bookish. It is also important to note that the same speaker will not always say the same sentence in the same way. That is perfectly natural and the same situation exists in English. In both
Serbo-Croatian and English (and all other languages as well) such variations are limited in scope and always follow the general pattern of the language. (For example, there may be variation as to which sound is used in a given word, but both sounds must be Serbo-Croatian sounds.) If one is listening to the recordings, he will find that they follow the printed material pretty closely. However, the speakers who made the recordings would not always say these things in exactly the same way. The differences might not be very great, but there would be frequent differences. Variations in intonation and in which word has the primary stress in a phrase or clause are to be expected. If one is working with a Serbo-Croatian speaker, he or she will undoubtedly say some things in a slightly different way than is found in these units. In every such case, his or her pronunciation is to be followed. One should, however, remember that there is no one single right way of speaking Serbo-Croatian or any other language. In this course an acceptable 'standard' form of spoken Serbo-Croatian is presented, but it is not the only such acceptable form.

Whether one is working with a native speaker or with recordings, each Serbo-Croatian word, phrase or sentence must be repeated in a loud, clear voice, the attempt being to imitate the pronunciation as closely as one can. While it is desirable to drill with books closed as much as possible, one may keep the book open and only use it when absolutely necessary. It is important to imitate the speaker and not read the Serbo-Croatian. The meaning of the Serbo-Croatian is to be kept constantly in mind, and it may be necessary to glance at the English equivalent occasionally. It is a waste of time to fumble for the meaning of a sentence and far preferable to look and see what it is.

In the first few units the student should not under any circumstances attempt to pronounce the Serbo-Croatian before he has heard it.

Students should also be reminded that language is arbitrary. Time should not be wasted in discussions of why Serbo-Croatian expresses something in the way it does. The student is to learn how something is said, not why. There is no answer to the question 'why' something is said the way it is.>>

-- Carleton T. Hodge and Janko Jankovic, "Serbo-Croatian Basic Course"

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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 05:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"The present work deals with the spoken Irish of a narrow tract extending along the west side of Lough Mask, between it and the mountains, from its northern tip to the border of Co. Galway. Part of the area was included in Co. Galway until the boundary was adjusted in 1898.

In a somewhat wider sense, this dialect belongs to what may be termed the Irish of Middle Connacht. It may be added that Middle Connacht is the only major region relatively unaffected by one or other of those two great linguistic movements -- spreading respectively from the North-East and from the South -- that have largely moulded the history of spoken Irish since the 13th century. Indeed, observers have been struck by the apparent closeness of the dialect to the classical form of Modern Irish; a fidelity that is all the more remarkable because, unlike Northern or Southern Irish, that of Middle Connacht has depended almost solely on oral tradition ever since the fall of the classical order, over three centuries ago. Evidently the old tradition was transmitted orally with considerable success."

-- Seán de Búrca, "The Irish of Tourmakeady, Co. Mayo"
("1970...reprinted 1970")

"The Irish of Erris seems to be typical of Mayo Irish in general; it is conservative in its sounds, as also in its declensional patterns, and has not gravely digressed from Classical Irish, though there are some features in which it shows a striking departure from classical forms. Two scholars in the past have had observations to make which are apposite here and may be quoted. John Mac Neill in 'Clare Island Survey', Section I, part 3, p. 7, says of the local dialect of Clare Island: 'Its phonetic system is the best preserved of all the extant Irish dialects known to me, that is to say, is the most fully in conformity with the orthography of Early Modern Irish.' T. F. O'Rahilly in his 'Irish Dialects', p. 246, remarks: 'On the whole it would seem that the Irish of N. Connacht has the fewest deviations from the older pronunciation.' Their remarks would appear to be equally applicable to the Irish of Erris today."

-- Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh, "The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo"
(first published 1968, reprinted 1980)

"Is minic a bhreathnaítear ar éagsúlacht na gcanúintí mar chonstaic ar an mbealach go dtí caighdeánú na Gaeilge nó go dtí tuiscint idirréigiúnach. Ó thaobh na teangeolaíochta de, ní fhéadfaí a rá go bhfuil na difríochtaí idir na canúintí rómhór agus gan amhras is féidir le lucht labhartha na gcanúintí faoi leith a chéile a thuiscint (mar is léir ó Raidió na Gaeltachta). Is éard is bun leis an mbarúil choitianta seo cheal teagmháil idir na Gaeltachtaí agus cheal gradam sách ard a bheith ag an teanga in intinn an chainteora. Níor mhór an dlúth-bhaint idir na canúintí a léiriú agus cur in aghaidh an bharúil a bhíos in ardréim. Is féidir é seo a chur i gcrích le bunchóras coitianta a scaradh ó chórais na gcanúintí faoi leith (ar chuntar gur féidir gach canúint a shíolrú go rialta ón mbunchóras sin). Chomh fada is a bhaineas le cuspóir praiticiúil, d'fhéadfaí (a) faoi chomhair mhúineadh na Gaeilge, an gaol idir na canúintí a thabhairt chun solais le cuspaí den chineál seo; (b) an caighdeán atá ann faoi láthair a chur ar bhunús réasúnach atá chomh cóngarach do chuile chanúint agus is féidir i leaba foirmeacha a thoghadh thall 's abhus. Ag an am céanna, ní thugtar aird ar mhionfhorás i gcanúint faoi leith (nó, ar mhodh, is ionann é agus go bhfeictear an taobh stairiúil níos mó gan aon iarracht a dhéanamh an teanga chlasaiceach a thabhairt ar ais). Lena chois sin, tá súil againn go mbeidh toradh éigin ar ár gcuid oibre a thabharfas fearasbarr eolais ar an nGaeilge taobh amuigh den mhéid a bhaineas leis na canúintí féin."

-- Mícheál Ó Siadhail agus Arndt Wigger, "Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge"

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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 69
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2005 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>...native speakers of the dialect (such as Pádraig S. Ó Murchú, Mary John Tom, Riocard Ó Bruadair and others whom Máirtín Mac Donnchadha interviews...)<

Among those "others" is Uinsíonn Mac Graith.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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