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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through January 14, 2005 » Questions « Previous Next »

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 109
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 04:17 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

in french, you would phrase a question like "pourquoi est-que tu ici?" (why are you here?)

in irish, do you use the question form of the verb with question words as well? for instance
an bhfuil tú anseo? - are you here?
cén fath an bhfuil tú anseo? - why are you here?
or would it be cén fath tá tú anseo? I don't think so, but perhaps that is a bad example being an irregular verb. you would say "conas (a)tá tú?", but you would also say cén chaoi an bhfuil tú?

I'm confuzzled...using question forms with question words sound more correct to me...am i wrong in that assumption?

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Maidhc. Ó G. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 152.163.100.135
Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I'm not sure, but I think this may be a case of direct vs. indirect.
Conas atá tú anseo? direct. (why?)
Cén fáth abhfuil tú anseo? indirect. (why/what's the reason?)
I'm getting back into it after a bit waiting for new learning materials.

-Maidhc.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 82
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 12:04 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Antaine, a chara,

I think Maidhc is on the right track for answering your question. Some interogatory particles require direct relative clauses and others require indirect relative clauses. See

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/12465/12884.html#POST15390

If I remember correctly, indirect relative clauses require the use of dependent forms in the affirmative and negative forms. Direct relative clauses only require dependent forms in the negative form.

You gave an example of dependent and independent forms of the irregular verbs above. is an independent form of while fuil is the dependent form. I think of the dependent form as 'depending' on a verbal particle before it, like an and :

An bhfuil ...?
Ní fhuil or Níl


Is this beginning to address your question, a Antaine?

(Message edited by lúcas on December 12, 2004)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 114
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 12:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

go raibh maith agat...seems to be what i was looking for...

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 56
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 05:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antaine, a chara,
I don't mean to be pedantic but in French grammatically correct forms would be "pourquoi es-tu ici?", or "pourquoi est-ce que tu es ici?" (although this second form would be very odd). The form you give in your post is ungrammatical, although the point you are trying to illustrate with it is a valid one.
Le meas,
Chris

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 08:41 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

you're right...it's been about five years since i studied/spoke french...

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 12:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am a native speaker of Scots Gaelic, I am a born and raised Gael of the Isle of Skye, and I would like to know how easy Irish would be for me to master, and how would another celtic speaker aquire fluency in his sister language. I am stunned at my own level of comprehension of written Irish, and our language seems to be relatively close to the diaelct of Gweedore, in Donegal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 672
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 04:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I find I can read Scots Gaelic (with some difficulty). There are special classes for speakers of each language to learn the other. You should take a look at http://www.colmcille.net/

I think the biggest difficulty will be "false friends" words which look the same, but have slightly different meanings.

For example, "cuan" in Irish means a harbour, whereas in Scot Gaelic it means the ocean.

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 61
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 04:50 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oidhche, a chara,
Cá bhfuil tú?
If you are still on your native Skye, then you should contact:

Sabhal Mòr Ostaig
Slèite
An t-Eilean Sgitheanach
Alba
IV44 8RQ
Fon: +44 (0) 1471 888000
Suoímh idirlíon: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk

They run courses in Irish for Gaelic speakers which I have heard are excellent.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Paul (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 66.152.218.225
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 09:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oidhche, a chara,
Ciamar a tha sibh?

Though I'm not a native speaker of Irish, I have a reasonable grasp of the language. I started studying Gaidhlig in October, and I'm really enjoying it.
It's a struggle trying to keep the two languages separate in my mind, but so far it's been an advantage to know Irish.

Tha mi scith an diugh: bha mi ag obair anns an achadh an raoir. [not really -- I just wanted to practice using my share of Gaidhlig]

Good luck on your pursuit of Irish fluency.
Let us know how you're doing.

Slan tamall, Paul

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 02:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Tha..Mòran taing airson do chuideachaidh. Tha an t-eilean (Eilean Sgitheanach) brèagha! Gàidhlig na Erin is very hard oddly for Gaelic speakers to write... We are not used to I guess the simplified spelling system... Yet, we can comprehend and read Irish with some but little difficulty.
Can someone please further the detail on these "false friends" in which the two languages seem to have. I have never encountered the problem possibly because I read Irish with a Gaelic mindset, and I can't identify it. When I read the music of Gweedore's Eithne, I have little trouble understanding what is being said, or the over feeling of the work... but, I am not truely sure. Fortunately, the differences between Gàidhlig and Gàidhlig na Erin is NOT like Welsh and Gàidhlig in difference.

Tapadh leibh,
Oidhche!

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.202.131.159
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 09:37 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I remember that the word 'glas' in Irish means green and in Gaidhlig means grey, is that right??

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 680
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 11:42 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It's trickier than that. In Irish, depending on context, glas can translate as either grey or green. Or as many other things!

glas [aidiacht den chéad díochlaonadh]
ar dhath an fhéir nó an duilliúir ag fás; óg, neamhaibí (adhmad glas); gan taithí (tá an fear bocht glas air); neamhoilte (saighdiúirí glasa); lag i mbrí (deoch ghlas); dorcha liath (flainín glas); liathghorm (súile glasa); lonrach mar chruach (sceana glasa); fuar, gruama (aimsir ghlas); gan substaint (iasc glas).

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 01:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Very right,

I would like to expand on it if I had the time from Gaidhlig not Irish, but I don't have any time..... Sorry

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 11:07 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Gàidhlig language is very difficult for me to explain, even though I am a native speaker of it, I don't think from a technical view. I think in Gàidhlig as a native speaker of English would think about his own language. It comes naturally, and because I use it naturally, I cannot describe the rules easily without thinking "duh" in my mind! Now, Mus cuir mi air an telebhisean, nì mi cupa cofaidh! I have to drink to think! Haha, sorry!

Oidhche
Slàn

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 684
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 06:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Exactly my case with Irish, a Oidhche.

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 12:48 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I am happy to see someone is taking an interest though in the Gàidhlig language. Irish has a very huge fighting chance, but very few are taking an interest towards keeping Gàidhlig living. Fewer than 80,000 people in the Highlands of Scotland, and the outer coasts of eastern Canada speak and use Gàidhlig actively. It hurts me very deeply to see a a very low outlook by fellow city Scots to keep Gàidhlig a living language, many sadly opt towards a language like Dutch, French or German over a historical celtic language. Each day, I count my blessings that Gàidhlig has lived this long, Ireland has done an amazing job to keep the Irish language, and speakers of the Gaeltachta active users, and promotion has been ever so strong. What will happen with Gàidhlig though? I weep, knowing I can only help by keeping future children speaking it, but little more.

Nollaig chridheil huibh,
A Oidhche

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 129
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 01:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

perhaps once scotland legislates itself out of the uk, they can embark upon a gaeltacht program having learned from ireland's mistakes, and in turn, scottish innovation in that department may also benefit the Irish gaeltacts and the country as a whole...

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 12:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

It is funny you mention a Gaeltacht programme. In the Gàidhlig language, the word for "The Highlands" is Ghaidhealtachd, or better expressed as Gàidhlig speaking pockets of Alba (Scotland). The sad thing is, these areas have not been recognised as official areas, very small programmes have been established in the Ghaidhealtachd, but unlike Ireland, Scotland does little to recognize the true improtance of the language, and it's status. BBC has established Gàidhlig programmes on Radio and TV, but the childrens programmes and that still do not attract Scottish youngsters to the Gaelic language. Sadly, people look at Gaelic as an economic burden, and as I mentioned before, Scots are looking towards languages that bring economic power, such as Russian, French, Swedish, German, Spanish and Italian. I am a 17 year old student myself, and I am training tobecome a Russian-English Interpreter, and offer Gaelic for extra services if the need ever arrises. I would, as a student, like to do more to urge others my age to use Gaelic, but they look at me funny and say either English or nothing. What am I to do?

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 130
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 01:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Scotland should look at Ireland to see where the "economic burden" thinking gets them...in looking at history it seems that Gaeilge started its upswing just in the nick of time...

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 02:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gur truagh a' Gàidhlig bhi 'n a càs
O'n dh'fhalbh na Gàidheil a bh'againn;
A ghineil òig tha tighinn 'n an àit'
O togaibh àrd a bratoch...

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 01:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Mur a bheil," thuirst mi-fhéin,
"So fear bach seall' n a dhéidh;
Ged a rachadh e dh'an speur
'N a riobanan 's 'n a ròpan..."

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An_mídheach_mealltach
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Username: An_mídheach_mealltach

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 08:52 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Quote: Antaine
"Scotland should look at Ireland to see where the "economic burden" thinking gets them...in looking at history it seems that Gaeilge started its upswing just in the nick of time..."

That was always an issue in Ireland, nothing new about that, but it's much harder to use that argument since Ireland has gone from being one of the poorest countries in Europe to the richest.
Yet the nay-sayers till like to claim that it'd be better spent on the "health service".

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Eamon (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 81.98.88.109
Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 03:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The economic burden argument is, in the first place, a specious one. The Irish language gives people a sense of community, a sense of lineage and of belonging. The high levels of violence and vandalism in Ireland today are a direct result of the breakdown of community. If people felt they belonged, there would be less violence and hence less of a burden on the prison system and on gardaí, thus saving money instead of "wasting it".

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 05:05 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I should have worded "Economic Burden" rather differently, in a less harsh manner. Yet, in Scotland, Gaelic is being left out of life, as only 1% of the population can claim of fluency in the Gaelic tongue. Scotland is introducing Gaelic medium education, I am one who attends a Gaelic medium Secondary School, but in the English speaking regions of Scotland, there is no emphasis at all on keeping Gaelic alive, and it is looked upon as no longer a priority but just a culture thing. Scotland is very multicultural, and new languages such as Urdu, Hindi and Chinese are being brought in, and many native Scots would rather learn what the rest of the world speaks. Funding towards Gaelic programmes is limited, and so is the motivation towards keeping Gaelic. In Parliament, it is beiing intigrated, but unless you can change the Scots mind itself, Gaelic has less than fifty years on this planet, and it will fade out the way Manx and Cornish did.

A Oidhche

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 132
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 06:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

the same things we keep saying about Irish...it's a hearts and minds thing...

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Oidhche (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 142.179.77.143
Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 07:00 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Gur truagh a' Ghàidhlig bhi 'n a càs
O'n dh'fhalbh na Gàidheil a bh'againn;
A ghineil òig tha tighinn 'n an àit'
O togaibh àrd a bratoch

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Tomasocarthaigh
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Username: Tomasocarthaigh

Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 12:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Best of luck keeping Scots Gaelic alive, it is to be encouraged.

For an Irish person, and a non native speaker, the though that our language is simple is mind boggling.

Prehaps you too need modernisation to keep your tongue alive. See the debate on Gaelic modernisation onhttp://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/13242.html?1104685486#POST18811

Our website www.teanganua.pro.ie outlines where we come from. Your input would be welcomed.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 565
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 04:26 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Prehaps you too need modernisation to keep your tongue alive.

A chara, please try to get this: whether a language trives or not has nothing to do with how easy it is!!! English and Chinese are the two dominating languages in the world today, but none of them are particularly easy. Welsh is simplicity itself but is a minority language with less than a million speakers. Manx is probably the easiest language in Europe, still it died out and the revived Manx has less than 1.000 speakers. The strength of a language depends of the country in which it's spoken. Russian, French, German and Spanish were never succesful because they are so easy but because the coutries in which they are spoken were great powers with huge influence.

Finally, Gàidhlig is far more logic than English both in terms of grammar and phonetic spelling. Why haven't you started an effort to "modernise" English.

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 135
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 02:34 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

make english phonetic and there's a cash prize for you left by george bernard shaw in his will...

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.202.79
Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 04:57 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Latin is easy. Read any good Latin novels lately?

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Tomasocarthaigh
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Username: Tomasocarthaigh

Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 03:13 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

English has many speakers, from the Queens English (which takes no prisoners as reguards grammer, etc.) to dialects like Lallans, Ullans, to extinct dialects such as Yola and Fingalian, so usage has helped make the language easier for all in their locality, often branching off into entities in their own right.

It appears Gaelic will be the preserve of the educated who have enough time and intrest to master the strict grammatics of the language, as to speak broken Irish is deemed worse than not speaking any at all.

Those who have time to learn are often those who can afford to have time: those we lose are those who are so busy working or trying for work that academic side intrests are of little assett, and therefor are ignored.

James Connolly himself said: "You cant teach a starving man Gaelic" Note: he did not say Irish!

In modern times the starving is not of the stomach, but more gnawing: of the soul itself.

Our people are being encouraged to be, in Rory Quinns words "European of Irish Extraction", devaluing our hard earned independence, in so much as we have it on 26 of our counties, and the ordinary working class have little to no sense of being of the nation any more.

Hence their lack of intrest in the language.

We have to court them: we have to adapt to meet them: they are the people, and the reason the language is ailing is because the people are not listning.

By the way: Latin is far from easy. My parents learned both Gaelic and Latin in school: and Gaelic was reasier by far for them!

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 65
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:30 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thomais, a chara,
You are wrong to categorise Lallans and Ulster Scots (Ullans)as dialects of English.
Lallans and Doric are dialects of Scots.
Ullans is a relatively new "Hiberno-English" term for the variety of Lallans that is spoken in parts of Ulster, for which I personally think Ulster Scots is a more appropriate term. Lallans and Doric are Scots words; Ullans is not.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Tomasocarthaigh
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Username: Tomasocarthaigh

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

The Germanic forum I use would disagree, as would the www.ullans.com website, check it out.

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 66
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:47 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chara,
I know the www.ullans.com website well.
And I stick with what I said earlier: Ullans is not a Scots word and the Scots language does not have a discrete term for the variety of the language spoken in Ireland.
The Scots of Ulster is part of the Lallans dialect. Ullans is an English neologism coined in the north east of Ireland and sadly is not a politically neutral term.
In common with many other Scots supporters of the Scots language who do not wish to see it becoming a political football in the north of Ireland, I do not use the term "Ullans" for the Irish variety of the language.
Le meas,
Chris

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Tomasocarthaigh
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Username: Tomasocarthaigh

Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:52 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

I use Ullans as a term for a post-British identity for the language, harking back to the 1798 Scots of Ulster, as that was their language, and is a good descriptor for the language... Ulster Lallans.

While used by UPRG and Piasleyites, it is still valid for the rest of us.

Personally, I prefer it to Ulster Scots.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 94
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 05:16 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thomasocarthaigh, a chara,

I disagree with both contentions you make above:

It appears Gaelic will be the preserve of the educated who have enough time and intrest to master the strict grammatics of the language, as to speak broken Irish is deemed worse than not speaking any at all.

Irish is not the preserve of the idle. Even the most busy person can find fifteen minutes a day to study Irish. Just a wee bit each day is enough to eventually "master the strict grammatics of the language."

If you come to any of the Immersion weekends on this side of the pond, you will find the broken Irish is encouraged. "Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste." Broken Irish is better than clever English.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 67
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 05:53 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thomais, a chara,
I find your most recent post difficult to understand.
I respect your right to use Ullans in the way that you describe, and of course your right to prefer the term to any other in English.
In fairness though, I most point out that your use of the term as defined here is idiosyncratic and that I, as a Scot could never be comfortable in using this term.
Those who have invented this English word for a variety of Scots use it for anything but a "post-British" identity for the language.
On shoddy and ill-conceived websites like www.ullans.com, they display their inability to spell even basic Scots words accurately and it comes as little surprise that they misrepresent the development of the Scots language in a staggeringly simplistic and anachronistic manner.
You may feel that this is valid for "UPRG, Paisleyites" and yourself but I would beg to differ on behalf (of some at least) of the "rest of us".
It is your reference to the "1798 Scots of Ulster" that I find most puzzling. The Scots who came to Ulster (in the 17th century for the most part) certainly would have had Lallans as their language, although they may have been more likely to refer to it as "braid leid/tung" or "hamely leid/tung", but by the end of the following century the prevailing socio-linguistic conditions in the "post-Jacobite" south of Scotland and north of Ireland were such that this seems to be a particularly inopportune period to which to ascribe a characteristic variety of the language.
Beir bua agus beannacht!
Chris

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.184.10
Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 06:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A Thomasocartaigh Still another excuse as to why YOU can't learn Irish. Unlike the rest of us, you have to work or search for work and have no time for such idle frivolities. Fear bocht. Come to one of the immersion weekends and meet the idlers - they include nurses, doctors, teachers, carpenters,firefighters, lawyers, mothers of young children and other such members of the leisure class. I work at least 40 hours a week, followed by household chores, family obligations, social events and oh, yes - a weekly class in Irish.



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