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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (October-December) » Archive through December 12, 2004 » Gaeilge Reference Card « Previous Next »

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm putting together a double sided card. This is what i have so far, and I want to make sure I'm not leaving anything out. If I'm missing anything YOU would like to have on a card like this to carry in your pocket, please post it here.

what's on there now
tables of all example verbs (including all irregular verbs) from briathra na gaeilge in present, past, future, habitual past, conditional, pres. subj and imperative, including pos/neg statements, pos/neg questions autonomous endings, verbal nouns and verbal adjectives.

the copula

useful constructions for making compound sentences, clauses, etc

all prepositional pronouns in a table. useful prefixes

lenition/eclipsis rules for posessive pronouns

a diagram illustrating the three ups and three downs

a diagram illustrating relative position in three dimensions

a diagram illustrating the two ins and two outs

words regarding time and place

noun declension table

175 common verbs

anything else?

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Philosophe
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Username: Philosophe

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't actually know what the three ups and downs or the two ins and outs are but......
I think it would be useful to have rules of how to form questions in the different tenses and how to reply
an raibh-> bhí/ní raibh etc

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 85
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

the negative/positive question and negative/positive statement is included in all tenses on the verb table.

the three ups and downs
ascending from below - aníos
descending - síos
down - tíos
ascending - suas
up - thuas
descending from above - anuas

ups and downs depend on whether the subject is moving or not
inside - istigh
inward - isteach
outside - amuigh
outward - amach

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Philosophe
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Username: Philosophe

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ah it all begins to make sense!

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 303
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I still don't understand the whole "anuas" "aníos" scenario. Saying "ascending from below" is bullshit because it is not possible to ascend from above. As such the "from below" is redundant, and as such I see no distinction between "anuas" and "síos".

Anyway here's how I use them:

I went down the road.
Chuaigh mé síos an bóthar.

John is down the road.
Tá Seán thíos an bóthar.

I went up the Donegal.
Chuaigh mé suas go Dún na nGall.

There wasn't many people up in Donegal.
Ní raibh mórán daoine thuas i nDún na nGall.

You use "suas" and "síos" as adverbs and you use "thuas" and "thíos" as adjectives. Another way of looking at it is that you use the formers when there's movement in the sentence, and the latters when there's no movement in the sentence. Similarly with "isteach" Vs "istigh".

He went out.
Chuaigh sé amach.

He's out.
Tá sé amuigh.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 87
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 03:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

it is possible to ascend from above. the way i've had it explained is as follows:

the celts were warriors, and so directions are given in relation to the speaker while standing on a battlefield. if i'm in a valley, and an army is ascending the hill to my right, they are ascending from above. They are above me, and moving to higher ground on top of it. In effect, they are heading further away from me. That is an important distinction if you consider the opposite - that I am on the hill and watching an army ascend from below, approaching me...

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 500
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine has the key.
All the forms are relative to the speaker

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.206.183
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

How big is the card with all this info? Or how small is the type?

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 09:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Antaine, a chara,

This is going to be some card. Maith thú! As to what else ought to go on the card, it's probably best to stop where you are and put it to use. It won't be long before those using the card will discover what's missing. Additions can be made PRN. Do you plan to post the contents so that others may make copies? That will increase the source of addenda.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 91
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 11:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

i've been using it...i added some useful constructions (the stuff for making relative clauses and the like) after I sent liam 2 copies for the síopa...some of the type is a little small, esp where long verbs required full out conjugation for each pronoun like taispeann in the conditional, but is typically between an 8-12pt font overall. Lots of color coding and light color bars behind the text make it more legible.

card measures 7x5.25" and is double sided.

I think I'm going to make a set. The one I have, plus the pronunciation info on another. and finally a foclóir of sorts with english to irish on one side and irish to english on the other. i already have english-irish verbs x175 on this card, so i think the vocab one will be only nouns, adjectives, adverbs.

when i fold it in half i can carry it in my shirt pocket. I'm of the opinion that if it isn't small enuff to be carried around, it is inconvenient to use when the chips are down.

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Maidhc Ó G. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 152.163.100.135
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Bó naomh!! Caithfaidh mé ceann a fháil! Cén bhealach é go bhfaighe mé ceann?
And how 'bout some idiom forms of prepositions?

-Maidhc.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.202.143.96
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm sure it's a typo....but down=thíos

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.202.143.96
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Explain to me....
I am going down : tá mé ag dul síos
He is coming down : tá sé ag teacht anuas

I am descending in both sentences am I not? Is anuas/aníos only used with 'coming'??

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 96
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

it is a typo...I prefer to use the seancló, and don't muck around with imaginary Hs...i just have to remember to put them back in when using a roman font...

you are not descending in both sentences. you are descending in the first sentence. somebody else is descending at you from above in the second. in english, to a large degree up and down are static and based on sea level (yes, there are exceptions), or some sort of horizon. in Irish, up and down denote not only a point in space but also describe movement...and all this is done in relation to the speaker.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.202.143.96
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

So would you say 'Beidh mé ag teacht anuas i gceann soicind' or 'Beidh mé ag teacht síos i gceann soicind'?

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Natalie
Member
Username: Natalie

Post Number: 95
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think someone said this but I agree with the idea of having idioms. There's a lot of them, and sometimes they're hard to understand (well if you're me). :)

Natalie

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

okay...to all of the above i did the following...

everything already mentioned as being on the card is still on the card, but now instead of measuring 7x5.25, it measures 7x10.5. everything mentioned before is on one side, and on the other is a 1600+word béarla-gaeilge foclóir. if it were folded in quarters, it would fit in a dress shirt pocket.

my goal is to have all that info accessible at a glance and without the need for a bulky foclóir poca, which it seems no one but me carries around with them as a matter of course anyway...

I'm going to make 3 81/2x11 "desktop models" with larger print. the first will cover the original material, the second will be the foclóir, and the third will be pronunciation and syntax for beginners. Liam has two copies of the original card for the shop, and i want to get him a couple samples of the others for the shop before the next esopus weekend. we'll see how "in demand" they are...

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Dearg
Member
Username: Dearg

Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 11:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine,

> it is a typo...I prefer to use the seancló, and don't muck around with imaginary Hs...i just have to remember to put them back in when using a roman font...

What is seancló? Is that the old writing where they put the dots on the lenited consonants?

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 12:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"What is seancló? Is that the old writing where they put the dots on the lenited consonants?"

yes, it is. I find it's far more elegant, and easier to teach the language that way. The biggest problem I've had introducing people to Gaeilge is that they find it nigh-on impossible to refrain from imposing english pronunciation on sh, th, ch, dh, fh, mh, bh combinations. it seems to be much easier to pick up reading and pronunciation when you're actually *seeing* a séimhiú, instead of trying to remember that every H you see isn't really a letter but an accent mark...

It's not nearly as difficult as it is made out to be sometimes. I find that by giving my students (mostly friends and family) a few pages of english text in the seancló font, by the time they get to the end of the third or fourth page they've got the knack of not confusing Gs with Ss, Ss with Rs, Ds with Os and Ts with Cs (which are really the big ones (particularly the lowercase S) as far as difficulties go...).

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 508
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 05:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post


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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.202.152.131
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 09:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I hope those people you teach don't come to Ireland or they'll never be able to read the signposts!!
People don't, unfortunately, use an tseanchló anymore, why not let them learn how to pronounce the words while written in the alphabet they know....it's what would happen if they learnt French or Spanish or German
If they were learning spanish they'd be quick enough to pick up that 'v' is pronounced 'b' or 'j' is pronounced like the Irish 'ch'

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Maidhc Ó G. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 152.163.100.136
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine,
Have you thought about possibly also making a wall poster size which could be hung in ones office, classroom, bedroom, etc.?
And it seems as the demand could be quite high - SO how might I acquire one!?! :)
And, oh yeah. I carry my foclóir around with me all the time, along with my 'Learning Irish'. With my schedule, I'm never really sure of when I'll get an extra moment or two to get any study in.
-Maidhc.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 99
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I do tell them how it is done now (there are some books still that use seancló, and older materials), and my experience has shown that learning with seancló and reading things in Roman doesn't screw people up, but learning with Roman and switching to seancló can be very frustrating.

Besides, in this age of computers, printing/publishing in seancló is not the pain it used to be with special castings of movable type or typewriters. I'm of the opinion that if the best materials are produced using seancló it will make a comeback.

I thought about doing the poster size, but I desktop publish with high gloss cardstock. I don't have the ability to print larger than A4 or legal.

give me a few weeks to get copies to Liam and you will be able to get them thru daltaí

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.180.136
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I know people who learned to read with seanclo and had a great deal of trouble with the new format. I really don't see a revival of seanclo as possible since it would require most of the modern day students and readers to learn it for no particular reason.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 100
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

hm...I used to run irish lessons when i was living on campus...had 75 students that way in four years...only ever had a problem switching from roman to seancló...had no probs once i switched to this method. it naturally required some adjustment, but my students largely had it down in an afternoon...the ones that learned roman first never *really* got the hang of seancló, and had untold pronunciation problems...

I don't know how pcs do it, but the séimhiú comes standard with the language scripts on OSX. It uses the standard roman letters, but has the séimhiú accent mark. Seancló per se may not make a comeback, but I do believe, based on what i've read (National Geographic etc) that the dot will make a comeback once pcs pick up on it, too.

honestly, the H has annoyed me from day one...there had to have been a better way...an acute, or a tilde, or SOMEthing that isn't a letter....

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Maidhc Ó G. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 152.163.100.136
Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 02:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine,
No matter what the size, I'll be waiting most anxiously to get my copy. Thanx.

-Maidhc.

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 72
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Antaine, a chara,

There are several copy/print shops in the area that will print posters for you:

  • Bring a copy of the file on a disk to Staples copy shop at South Bayshore Shopping Plaza, 3140 Route 35, Hazlet, NJ, 732-335-3420, and they will print a posyer for you.
  • You can email a copy of the file to FedEx Kinkos, 255 Route 35, N Eatontown, NJ, 732-542-5400, usa1239@fedexkinkos.com, and they will print posters for you.
  • I have not used Triangle Your Creative Center, Us Highway 1, N Monmouth Junction, NJ, 732-329-6669, but I think they can print a poster for you too.

Another option is to have people print their own posters. You email them a copy of the file, and they can find a print shop in their area with the capability. It only took me a few minutes on Google to come up with three addresses for you. (I have to admit I have used the Staples and Kinkos shops in the past.)

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.181.122
Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The people I referred to as having trouble switching from seanclo were native speakers who were schooled in Ireland. They found it hard to adjust.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 101
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

hm...i would imagine that there would be some difficulty adjusting after years of studying a particular way...I try to get them reading both as soon as possible, but found that the séimhiú was the quickest way to proper pronunciation.

Lúcas. Tá mé bocht...perhaps some day I will get them done in other sizes like that (staples in hazlet is so close I can walk to it), but for the time being I really can't do it if I can't do it myself...and that's not just in printing...I build my own instruments, do my own engraving...all manner of expensive things that can be done far less expensively on my own...



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