A chairde,

I'm a graduate student in Anglo-Irish lit. I'm doing some research on the aisling tradition, and one of my advisors wants me to tranlate some of the Irish names used into English. I know the first names but the last names have me stumped. Can anyone help me out?

Síle Ní Ghadhra, Móirín NíChuilleanáin, Clíona na Carriagen,and Caít Ní Dhuibhir.

Also, craoibhín aoibhinn áluinn óg' is the delightful little yellow branch, no?

Go raibh míle maith agat!

Bríd

Why not leave them in their original versions with a pronounciation guide beside them!

craoibhín aoibhinn áluinn óg

craoibhín - small branch
aoibhinn - delightful
áluinn - beautiful
óg' - young.

As for translating names, one cannot! You can certainly find equivalent English names to the Irish, but what's the point?

A Bhríd, a chara,
One may identify equivalents for surnames but then your advisor may be caught up in the monoglot trap of uncomfortableness with anything non-English. In addition, at the time that the aisling tradition of poetry was at its height, and if these are the names of such poets, it is very unlikely that they used or were known by any other form other than the Irish form.
To draw a parallel for illustration purposes: what is the English for Abdul, for Sing, for Bin Laden, for Masuta, for Toyota, Beauvais or San Francisco?
Slán go fóill, Au Revoir, Chow?!

I agree, translating names from literature verges on the absurd. Should I, as a Swede, start calling Shakespeare "Kastspjut"? To echo "is mise", what it the English of Tolstoy, of Mann, of Cervantes, of Sartre and so on. Translating names amounts to falsifying history.

(And no, there is definitely nothing academic about it. Quite the opposite. I'm an academic myself, working on my PhD at university. I asked my colleagues at the department about their views on this subject and they thought I was joking...)

Also, craoibhín aoibhinn áluinn óg is the delightful little yellow branch, no?

No, it's not.

craobhín = litte branch
aoibhinn = wonderful
álainn = beautiful
óg = young

Brid, A Chara:

While agreeing with the above posts, I'll still try to meet the intent of your request. I would suggest however, that you keep the Irish spelling and place the Anglo corruption in parentheses after it. The "Ní" Corresponds to "O'" but indicates the feminine nature of the subject and her marital relationship.

Síle Ní Ghadhra (Garry or possiby Gowry)

Móirín NíChuilleanáin (Cullinan)

Clíona na Carriagen (Carrigan)

Caít Ní Dhuibhir (Deever or possibly Dwyer)

Two things to keep in mind. First,oOne Irish spelling can give you several Anglo corruptions. Hence, the dual suggestions. Secondly, I'm giving you my best attempt to put english sounds on Irish phonetics. This is awkward at best and should be avoided when possible. That is the genesis of the first caveat and the reluctance of the more academic and seasoned speakers to directly address your request.

Hope this clears it up. But, I cannot stress this enough...if you don't spell the names in the Irish you're doing a great disservice to those Irish writers. The Anglo corruptions should be included ONLY as a convenience and then, only once in the initial introduction of that particular individual. From that point forward, I would stick to the Irish.

Le meas,

James

Some weeks ago I had one of my papers accepted to a conference in my area of research in New Zeeland. In the paper I mentioned some famous Irish writers from Kerry, amongst them Tomás Ó Criomhthain, Muiris ó Súilleabháin and Peig Sayers. That is also the only way in which I spelled them in the paper. Obviously, the five "peers" who have revised had no objection whatsoever to it. I also included a short passage in Irish and provided a translation of the same passage. Texts which serve a purpose can of course be translated* but names are not something you usually translate. They are part of the persons identy - something no-one has the right to deny them.

*Though according to one professor I've spoken to passages in English, German and French should never be translated since "every educated person can be expected to understand these languages". :-)

Yes. Part of the reason I am so opposed to translating names is that I am sometimes asked, when I give my name in Ireland, "What's that in English?" I find this offensive.

No one calls Giuseppe Verdi "Joey Green" or Johann S. Bach "John S. Stream"

This is a pet peeve of mine, which is why I keep harping on it. For those of you who have heard it before, bear with me. Many of the spellings and pronunciations of truly beautiful Irish surnames were sacrificed on the altar of ignorance to accomodate that very ignorance among the imigration "officials" on Ellis Island. Aonghus' point about Giuseppe (Joe Green) Verdi is well taken. What shall we do with MacTaggart?

what would be the phonetic pronunciation of Tiobaid arann cailin

I guess you mean "Tiobraid Árainn cailín".

The phonetic pronunciation is:
[t´ubrid´ a:r@n´ ka'l´i:n´]

Please note that it does not mean "Tipperay girl", rather "Tipperary" and "girl"

(Message edited by jonas on October 18, 2004)