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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (October-December) » Archive through October 13, 2004 » Ceisteanna do Jonas « Previous Next »

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Rómán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.197.173.4
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 02:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit!
I have found a review of Diarmuid Ó Sé's "Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne" on the net signed by Jonas Holmqvist. I suspect this yours :-) correct me if I am mistaken. I have question concerning this review (as unfortunately I don't have access to the book itself). You mention a new phoneme sign is introduced ("I") - what is the phonetic value, and when it is encountered? Cause I suspect it is the same sound as the last one in "eile", so it is not new after all. Ó Cuív also denotes pronounciation as [el'i]. Then you mention in the dialect there's no distinction between [@i] and [ai] - single notation [ai] in the book. As far as I know this distinction has gone not only in Corca Dhuibhne but also in other parts of Munster. Can you confirm that?
Last point on the review - [au] and [ou]. You hail one notation and say that this distinction is gone as well. While I believe this statement it follows from your table in the review that the result of fusion is [ou]. Is it OK? In Doyle's book it is written that something closer to [au] resulted. Comment on this más é do thoil é.

I have found a form "déarthaoi" [d'iarf'i:] in Ó Cuív's book - because of its pronounciation I am really confused - can you identify what kind of grammatical form is this (past habitual imp? pres. 2p. pl?).

Finally some single words - how do ye pronounce "duit"? Is it [dot'] or smth different? Also "dhaoibh" - is it [ji:v'] or [Gi:v']? úllord - [u:lo:rd] or [aulo:rd] (as expected from old spelling "abha-ghort"). Inniu - with final [-v] or without? Btw - you write "aríst" - are you sure it is Munster feature? It seems to be much in line with Conamara and Mayo. Have you ever seen word "abha" in the meaning "abhainn"?
Uff so many questions, but tá a fhios agam go rabhas the best in this field. Go raibh maith agat in advance.

p.s. agam, agat - [@gam], [@gat] or [@gum], [@gut]? What do you think about againn [@gun']and [@guv'] - sounds incredible, but it is again Ó Cuív's book!

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 465
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 04:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia is Muire dhuit, a chara!

I have found a review of Diarmuid Ó Sé's "Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne" on the net signed by Jonas Holmqvist. I suspect this yours :-) correct me if I am mistaken.

It does sound like me, yes :-)

I have question concerning this review (as unfortunately I don't have access to the book itself).

Neither do I at the moment - I'm not at home - but I'll answer those questions that I can answer without looking at the book.

You mention a new phoneme sign is introduced ("I") - what is the phonetic value, and when it is encountered? Cause I suspect it is the same sound as the last one in "eile", so it is not new after all.

You're absolutely right, the sound is not new at all but the phonetic sign is. It is the last sound in words such as eile. In most other works this is either denoted by "@" or "i" but Ó Sé went for "I". I still think it's a rather good decision, the sound is different both from "@" and "i" - but of course it's not a phoneme, merely an allophone.

Then you mention in the dialect there's no distinction between [@i] and [ai] - single notation [ai] in the book. As far as I know this distinction has gone not only in Corca Dhuibhne but also in other parts of Munster. Can you confirm that?

I don't think I can. As you say, the distinction is gone in Corca Dhuibhne but I would think that it is very much alive in An Rinn. For Múscraí I'm not sure. If they have merged in Múscraí, they have done so very recently. I know that at least older speakers in Múscraí make a distinction between [ai] and [@i].

Last point on the review - [au] and [ou]. You hail one notation and say that this distinction is gone as well. While I believe this statement it follows from your table in the review that the result of fusion is [ou]. Is it OK? In Doyle's book it is written that something closer to [au] resulted. Comment on this más é do thoil é

Quite right, I'd definitely go with Doyle. I think it's a good thing Ó Sé merged [au] and [ou] but I was always - from the first time I opened the book - somewhat surprised that he decided to represent them with [ou] instead of [au]. I have always used [au] when describing the sounds of Corca Dhuibhne Irish.

Is it [dot'] or smth different?

Hard to say. I know how I pronounce it, but in IPA... I'd say that Ó Sé's symbol "I" could come in handy, something like [dIt´] should be the closest, but there are many pronunciations of this word. I think I once made a list of it, I'll check it when I get home.


Also "dhaoibh" - is it [ji:v'] or [Gi:v']?

[Gi:v´], definitely.


úllord - [u:lo:rd] or [aulo:rd] (as expected from old spelling "abha-ghort").

Now, that's a good question and I cannot answer it. I have never heard any use the word, only seen it written. So even if I know what it means and know how I'd suppose it to be pronounced based on the spelling ([u:lo:rd]), I cannot say. If I ever hear anyone use it I'll try to remember it. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard someone use "orchard" in English either. I've never even heard "frukträdgård" (the Swedish word for it).

Inniu - with final [-v] or without?

Without, I'd say. Again, it's easier saying it than describing it :-) I'd say that [i'n´iw] is the best IPA version.

Btw - you write "aríst" - are you sure it is Munster feature? It seems to be much in line with Conamara and Mayo.

Yes, I'm sure it's a feature of Munster Irish but you're right in saying that it alos features in Conamara and Mayo. Some friends of mine (native speakers) use to mention it as one absurd example of the standardised Irish. Since almost everyone says aríst, why did they go for "arís". No-one knows, I guess. These days I guess you could hear at times "arís" due to standard influence.

Have you ever seen word "abha" in the meaning "abhainn"?

Yes, I have but not very often. abhainn is definitely the version in use.

[@gam], [@gat] or [@gum], [@gut]?

[@'gum], [@'gut] with the stress on the second syllable.

What do you think about againn [@gun']and [@guv'] - sounds incredible, but it is again Ó Cuív's book!

It sounds as incredible to me, although I too have seen it in Ó Cuív's book. [@'gIn´], [@'gIv´] is what I'd say.

Sin é anois, tá súil agam nár dheineas dearmad ar cheist éigint.

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Rómán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.197.173.4
Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 08:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post


quote:

[Gi:v´], definitely.



I was expecting this answer. But the reason I asked: in Doyle's book "Dia dhaoibh" is transcribed as [d'i@ ji:v'] (sic!) I thought a lot about it (that's a stupid feature of me - to think a lot about insignificant things :) You know that in Munster de has contaminated with do. In many forms the only difference between both forms is quality of [d] anyway. So if a person is saying something like "Dia dhibh" the [j] sound is perfectly ok! That is my version. But I was interested if you came up with some kind of theory.

quote:

[dIt´] should be the closest



I remember you said Múscraí has almost identical dialect to Corca Dhuibhne. In Músgraí (check this out!) they say exactly [dot']. But if you insist ...

quote:

[@'gum], [@'gut]


Yep, I know (Doyle's opinion as well). but Soejstadt-Jonval in "une description etc " has [@'gam], [@'gat]. Any idea how to renocile those? What is Diarmuid's version?

Maybe any ideas on déarthaoi [d'iarf'i:] ?

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Jonas
Member
Username: Jonas

Post Number: 468
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I was expecting this answer. But the reason I asked: in Doyle's book "Dia dhaoibh" is transcribed as [d'i@ ji:v'] (sic!) I thought a lot about it (that's a stupid feature of me - to think a lot about insignificant things :) You know that in Munster de has contaminated with do. In many forms the only difference between both forms is quality of [d] anyway. So if a person is saying something like "Dia dhibh" the [j] sound is perfectly ok! That is my version. But I was interested if you came up with some kind of theory.

Aha, I see. Yes, that would be a logical conclusion but it is not the case. As you say, do and de are pronounced identically. The personal forms are not, though. Of course the pronunciation [ji:v´] exists but then it's díbh. It seems very strange to me that Doyle has that pronunciation. Perhaps it's just a typo?

I remember you said Múscraí has almost identical dialect to Corca Dhuibhne. In Músgraí (check this out!) they say exactly [dot']. But if you insist ...

I won't insist too hard :-) You can say [dot´], that pronunciation is also heard in Corca Dhuibhne although [dit´] is by far more common.

And yes, Corca Dhuibhne is almost identical to Músgraí* but there are a few differences. I could easily mention 100 words that are pronounced differently between the two areas or - in some cases - are completely different.

*One can write Múscraí or Músgraí. Múscraí is the new spelling, Músgraí the old one. I my own opinion, Músgraí is better since it's closer to the actual pronunciation. I sometimes use Múscraí because that spelling is better known. Since we both know which area we're talking about, I'll be more than happy to use Músgraí in this discussion. In the same way, "sgoil" would be a more accurate spelling than the present scoil

Yep, I know (Doyle's opinion as well). but Soejstadt-Jonval in "une description etc " has [@'gam], [@'gat]. Any idea how to renocile those?

Ah, Sjoestadt-Jonval has that one? I'm not surprised. It's a good book but it was written before most other works in the field of Irish dialectology and its representation of the pronunciation is quite different, as I'm sure you've noticed. I guess that accounts for the [@'gam], [@'gat] - she might also have been influenced by the spelling, of course. I've heard old speakers from An Blascaod - people who were young when she wrote that book - and they haven't said it either.

Maybe any ideas on déarthaoi [d'iarf'i:] ?

Of course! I knew I forgot something. Well, given that pronunciation I could only be déarfaí = "one would say".

All your questions have been excellent (as usual), just the kind of questions I used to ask myself some years ago. Please ask more if you're wondering about anything!



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