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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (October-December) » Archive through October 13, 2004 » Teach Yourself Irish (Old edition) « Previous Next »

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Rómán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 82.135.129.11
Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I have a question to those having Dillon's book. What is verb "tá" paradigm in that book (present tense). Especially interested in 2nd person forms (tú and sibh form). Thanx in advance.

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Antóin (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.180.192
Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

1961 edition.

"táim
táir, taoi, tá tú
tá sé, tá sí
táimid
tá sibh
táid, táid siad

tánn tú, tánn sibh are common colloquial forms."

My own note:
'Conas tánn tú?' is still the common way of saying 'how are you?' in Munster.

I think "tá siad" is now the most common expression. But wait for Jonas.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 451
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks for your confidence in me :-)

Yes, I agree with everything you wrote. The most common forms by far are:
táim
tánn tú
tá sé, tá sí
táimid
tánn sibh
tá siad


But every form listed above can be heard while basically no other forms can. táir and taoi are both quite rare now. tá sibh is heard quite often alongside tánn sibh. I'd say tá siad is the most common - as you wrote - but both táid and táid siad are definitely in use.

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Rómán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.197.173.4
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 02:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanx guys!
The reason I am asking is very simple. As I am still getting started, so I am trying to classify everything into some kind of system and stick to it. I am aware of the fact "taoi" is very rare, met only in old literature. But the fact "táir" is rare is confusing. What about "nílir", "an bhfuilir?" - are those rare too? And "normal" verbs: how should I say "glanair" or rather "glanann tú" - if want to speak distinctly Gaelainn na Mumhain? With sibh - I haven't found any instance of "tánn sibh" on the net, although "tánn tú" is aboundant. And also following internal logic of the language (3p. sg = 2p. pl in present tense in all verbs) - I rather stick to "tá sibh".

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 453
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 04:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It might be a good idea to stick to tá sibh, it is getting more and more common. glanair, while not wrong, would sound a bit un-natural - glanann tú is definitely the more common form; much more common. Of course, moving to the future tense, glanfair is more common although you definitely would hear glanfaidh tú as well.

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Tomás (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 198.22.236.230
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas, a chara, -- Cad é an fhoghraíocht i gCorca Dhuibhne (I.P.A.) ar "glanfair"? GRMA.

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Rómán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.197.173.4
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Jonais, and you didn't answer the question about "an bhfuilir" and "nílir". Please :)..

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 458
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá an ceart agat, I completely missed it. I'd say that nílir is slightly more common than táir and than an bhfuilir is still a bit more common. Still, they are all less common than the "tú-variants".

Mar gheall ar an bhfoghraíocht i gCorca Dhuibhne, seo chugat í: [glanhir´].

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Antóin (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.180.23
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"taoi" survives in the question:

'Conas taoi?'

instead of

'Conas tánn tú'

I don't know if it's used in the gaeltacht, but Irish speakers sometimes use it.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 459
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, it is still used in that sence - though not as often as Conas tánn tú?

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Rómán (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.197.173.4
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Conas atathaoi, a chairde!
Baochas to everyone who replied. I have made a small research on my own. Here is what I discovered, so check my logic.

First, some hard facts. Diarmuid Ó Sé (An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath): "Sna leaganacha Gaeilge den cheist ‘How are you?’ ar mhapa 244 in LASID I feicimid go bhfuil na foirmeacha taoi, tá tú, tánn tú agus taíonn tú ag an mbriathar tá sa 2ú pearsa uatha, aimsir láithreach, i gcanúintí na Mumhan i gcomórtas leis an bhfoirm aonair tá tú atá sa chuid eile den tír. Lasmuigh de chomhthéacs na ceiste sin tá foirm eile táir le fáil, agus tá tuairisc ar an réimse foirmeacha seo ag Heinrich Wagner ina leabhar ar an mbriathar Das Verbum etc. Déanfar iarracht sa chaint seo ar na próisis analaí ba chúis leis an réimse seo foirmeacha a scagadh óna chéile, go háirithe teacht chun cinn na bhfoirmeacha tánn tú agus taíonn tú."

So I think this passage allows to interpret that form "táir" is not original, it appeared later, as it is missing from the most common phrase using the tú-form. It is not difficult to see where does this form come from - made by analogy to other verbs, as the old form is undoubtely "taoi". My rule of thumb would be to use "taoi" in traditional greeting (as it still is), but to use "tánn tú" in all other situations - as it is in Munster gaeltachtaí. So my proposed paradigm to anyone interested in Munster Gaelainn is:

táim
tánn tú
(but Conas ataoi? - is a nice expression not to get rid of)
tá sé/sí
táimíd
tá sibh
(tathaoi is definitely marbh form, tánn sibh is in no way better than tá sibh)
táid

What do you think of it?
What concerns all other verbs - traditional endings except sé-form, which is used only in Ulster in special situation (e.g. glanaidh) & sibh-form, which is chomh maith le marbh (e.g. glantaí):

glanaim fuilim
glanair fuilir
glanann sé fuil sé
glanaimíd fuilimíd
glanann sibh fuil sibh
glanaid fuilid


I like it!



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