mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through September 27, 2004 » Please, not again « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't want to open up that Tá/Is can of worms again, but can someone tell me if the following is incorrect, and if not, why is the verb "is" used twice in the sentence?

Mar is é Criost is beatha domsa agus ba shocar dom an bás.

buiochas

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 130
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 04:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It is correct.

I'll try to explain why "is" is used three times (ba is a form of is):

Is beatha domsa Críost - Christ is life for me

Mar is (Críost is beatha domsa) - For it is Christ who is life for me

I'm not sure that helps. But it's the best I can do for you. The whole phrase is the object of the first "is".

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanx, Aonghus. I just can't seem to stop expecting Latinate construction in a Celtic language. I know the Vulgate has it as:

mihi enim vivere Christus est et mori lucrum
For to me to live is Christ and death a profit (gain.)

I was looking for a similar economy in the Irish. Am I correct in translating "ba shocar dom an bás" as "death would be gain for me"?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 139
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 04:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ba sochair dom an bás.

Gain is a good translation in the context. Irish has a number of pairs of words starting with "so" for good, "do" for bad.

Sochar - something good
Dochar - something harmful.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 109
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 06:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

saor - free
daor - not free

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

??????? (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 82.69.43.128
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ba sochair...

Why is the S not lenited?

Ba shochair?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 11
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think it should be. Also, Aonghus has used sochair (sochair) where the text in which I found the quote gave shocar. At least that's what I think I read. I'm away from my library and will have to look it up later.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 11:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Okay, this should make things more confusing:

sochar is a noun which means profit or gain
socair is an adjective which means quiet or calm

An Biobla Naofa uses sochar and it is aspirated in the phrase "ba shochar dom an bás."

What isn't clear to me is whether Aonghus misspelled shochar or intended to do something with socair. I guess socair would fit in the sentence as a predicate adjective, but both the Latin Vulgate and The New International give lucrum and gain (respectively) which are synomous with the Irish sochar.

It's only 5:00 AM in Dublin, so we'll have to wait a few hours.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 143
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 04:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I mistyped.

Sochar was what I intended;

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 113
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 08:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The only ever accepted case I've seen in which "ba" doesn't séimh is in the poem "Fear Lasta Lampaí":

Bá draíodóir an fear beag
a raibh an solas ina ghlac

Don't know why, poetic license? Even with that, I can see no reason for it.



©Daltaí na Gaeilge