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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through September 09, 2004 » Lenition versus Eclipsis for Bhuailfidh..... « Previous Next »

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In RTÉ's Turas Teanga, Aonad 3, page 33, some useful phrases are shown to use when making arrangements to meet someone. The three phrases shown are:
1. Cén t-am a bhuailfidh mé leat? (What time will I meet you?)
2. Cén áit a mbuailfidh mé leat? (Where will I meet you?)
3. Cén áit a mbuailfimid le chéile? (Where will we meet?)

In the first example, the verb buailfidh is lenited, and in the last two examples the same verb is eclipsed. An explanation on why there is lenition versus eclipsis would be greatly appreciated.

Go raith maith agat,

Dáithí

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TSJ (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 216.120.4.248
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 11:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

According to the book" Cruinnscriobh na Gaeilge ', Page 129 (New Edition), the expression " Cen t-am---? is followed by the independent form of the verb which is then lenited. e.g. " Cen t-am a chonaic tu e ? = What time did you see him ?, whereas " Cen ait---? is followed by the dependent form of the verb which is eclipsed, e.g. Cen ait a bhfaca tu e " = Where did you see him ? I hope this answers the question.

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara a TSJ,

Thanks for the answer, including your insight into the independent and dependent forms. From the examples given, I would have never noticed that important difference. By the way, do you know if the book "Cruinnscriobh na Gaeilge" is available and where, if so? I'm always looking to add to my meager library.

Go raibh maith agat,

Dáithí

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This is one of the main little problems people first have at first when learning Gaeilge. They want to know how to tell the difference between "The dog I saw" and "The dog that saw me". Here's what I do:

The dog that I saw
An madra a bhfaca mé

Tha dog that saw me
An madra a chonaic mé


Note here that I'm not a native or even fluent speaker of the language and I never get a chance to speak it, but all the same: I would've said:

Cén t-am a mbuailfidh mé leat?

When learning I like to have a clear-cut rule in my head about how to do things. But now that I've read and listened to plenty of Gaeilge, I've noticed that the likes of:

Cad a dúirt sé?
Cad a chonaic tú?

are perfectly exceptable as:

What did he say?
What did you see?

and are devoid of any grammatical errors whatsoever, even though the beginner may be inclined to say:

Cad a ndúirt sé?
Cad a bhfaca tú?

So... at the end of the day, how do you work with it? Well, here's how I do: I don't. I don't give any heed to whether there's a séimhiú or an urú there, I just take it in its context. Is there every any ambiguity or confusion? Well look at it this way:

The right side of the road to drive on in Ireland is the left side.

In a conversation, if some-one said the likes of the above then the two have a little giggle and explain, something like:

right as in good


So when I hear:

Cad a mharaigh an sionnach?

I determine from the context whether or not it means:

What killed the fox?
or
What did the fox kill?

If it's not obvious from the context, then I do the following (note again that I'm not a native or fluent speaker): I use the little trick of "sé" versus "é":

Seán: Cad a mharaigh an sionnach?
Mise: Cad a mharaigh sé, nó cad a mharaigh é?

Anyway, hope that's been of help to you. I'm sure the native and fluent speakers can give more insight.

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Fhear na mbróg, a chara

Let me try to give you some simple rules for forming questions. Questions in Irish require a relative clause. Some questions require direct relative clauses and some questions require indirect relative clauses.

I. Questions about when, what, how much, and which take a direct relative clause, e.g., Cá huair? Cén uair? Cathain? Cé? Cad (é)? Céard? Cé mhéad? Cé acu?


  1. Cá huair a tharla sé?
  2. Cén uair a thiocfaidh sí?
  3. Cathain a tháinig siad?
  4. Cén t-am a bhuailfidh mé leat?
  5. Cé a rinne é?
  6. Cé a chonaic tú?
  7. Cad (é) a bhain duit?
  8. Céard a fuair tú?
  9. Cé mhéad míle a shiúil tú?
  10. Cé acu is daoire, feoil nó iasc?

II. Questions about who, why and where take the indirect relative, e.g., cé aige? Cá leis? Cad chuige? Cén fáth? Cá (háit)? Cén áit?'

  1. Cé aige a bhfuil an t-airgead?
  2. Cá leis ar thóg tú é?
  3. Cad chuige ar bhuail tú é?
  4. Cén fáth a bhfuil iontas ort?
  5. Cá ndéantar iad?
  6. Cá háit ar fhág tú mo pheann?
  7. Cén áit a bhfaca tú an bhean?
  8. Cén áit a mbuailfidh mé leat?
  9. Cén áit a mbuailfimid le chéile?

III. Of course, there is some dialectical variation. For example, whether the question how is direct or indirect relative depends on the blasta?
Conas and cad é mar, take a direct relative while cé chaoi takes an indirect relative.

  1. Conas atá tú?
  2. Cad é mar atá tú?
  3. Conas a tharla sé?
  4. Cén chaoi bhfuil tú?
  5. Cén chaoi a mbaineann sin leat?

What's a relative clause? Sin é scéal eile.

Mise le meas

Lúcas

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

My knowledge of Gaeilge has for a long time been adequate enough to burn the books, take a trip to the Gaeltacht and then just speak the language as I hear it spoken. Unfortunately though I'm in SW Dublin and I don't have a car at the moment so there's next to zero people who can speak Gaeilge with me.

Although I don't recognize the argument that:

Cén t-am

would be different to:

Cén áit

I would however be content with the answer that "that's just the way it is"! At this stage of my proficiency I really just don't care any more why for the past 5 years my teacher had been saying to me:

Cad a duirt sé?

when in the back of my mind I would always be thinking why isn't it "Cad a ndúirt sé?".

Anyway, I know all the tenses, I've a decent vocabulary and I can form the different cases of all the nouns and adjectives... so I'm throwing away the books and just heading the Gaeltacht and listening to what I hear there!

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TSJ (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 216.120.4.147
Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhaiti,

The book " Cruinnscriobh na Gaeilge ", Second Edition published 2004 (which includes a cd) can be ordered through Litriocht.com. It cleared up a lot of doubts in my mind about the finer points of Irish grammar. The chart which appears on page 129 is especially interesting since it explains which expressions like Cen t-am, Cad chuige, cen ait etc. require the dependent or independent form of the following verb. I went through the Irish educational system without this ever having been explained to me. For anyone interested in accuracy I believe this book is a must. However, I do believe that learning by ear or from context is preferrable but I am a long way from home and do not have access to Irish speakers, so I have to rely entirely on books. The only drawback I find with this book is that the explanations are given in Irish. If any student is not uo to the level of reading instructions in Irish, I would suggest that he/she study the examples given and the the rules can then be easily deduced from them. Hope this helps. Adh mor ort.

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde a Fear na brog, a Lucas, agus a TSJ.

Thanks for the responses! A Lucas, I appreciate you taking the time to explain direct and indirect relative clauses. Agus a TSJ, I'll contact Litriocht and see if I can get a copy of the book you mentioned. I know for some it may be considered a capital offense to like grammar, but I confess that I really enjoy all aspects of the Irish Language, including its grammar.

Le meas,

Dáithí

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Lúcas
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Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dháithí, a chara,

Níl a bhuíochas ort. I agree with TSJ about "Cruinnscriobh na Gaeilge." It is a very good description of Irish grammar.

Also, if you you want to practice the use of relative clauses, "Úrchúrsa na Gaeilge" has three chapters devoted to them. Some answers to the exercises are in the back, and there is a separate answer book with all the answers.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas
P.S. I like grammar too.
(Message edited by lúcas on September 05, 2004)

(Message edited by lúcas on September 05, 2004)

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Lucas a chara,

In your post above you included the phrase "Níl a bhuíochas ort." What does that mean? Literally, it seems to be "his thanks is not on you," but I'm guessing it might be idiomatic and mean "don't mention it."

Go raith maith agat,

Dáithí

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dáithí, a chara,

Sin é go direach glán. That's exactly right. "Níl a bhuíochas ort" is an idiom that means "don't mention it." I think it is an example of a broader idiomatic form, namely the verb and the prepositional pronouns for ar

  • tá orm a rá -- I must say
  • bhí ort dhul ar scoil -- you had go to school
  • beidh air reicneáil a dhíol -- he has to pay the bar tab
  • ...


In this case, something 'on you' implies an obligation. If it is not 'on you', then you do not have an obligation.


  • ní raibh orm a dhúiseacht go much maidin inné -- I did not have to get up early yesterday morning
  • níl a bhuíochas ort -- it's gratitude is not on you, i.e., you have no obligation to be grateful for it
  • ní bheidh uirthi an anraith a ithe -- she will not have to eat the soup
  • ...

I hope I got this right. I find the Irish idiom to be the most difficult part of the language. I think I will be struggling to understand it the rest of my life.

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Lúcas a chara,

Got it, thanks! So, it's nice to know I don't have any obligation to thank you, but I will nonetheless, including your response on idioms. That should keep me occupied for a while.

BTW, I see you have a new coat-of-arms :)

Mise le meas,

Dáithí

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Lúcas
Member
Username: Lúcas

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2004


Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dháithí,

Yes. It the coat of arms of an Cathánach, the Kane guy. It is a lot nicer looking than my pus was.

Lúcas

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 58
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 04:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post


quote:

I hope I got this right. I find the Irish idiom to be the most difficult part of the language. I think I will be struggling to understand it the rest of my life.


The Irish idiom? Is that a typo for "this Irish idiom"?

I find this particular one very simple to understand. Actually, I wouldn't call it an idiom, it's just that the preposition "ar" can have the meaning of "having to do something":

I have to go
Tá orm imeacht

I've to go home for my dinner
Tá orm dul abhaile do mo dhinnéar.

One favourite idiom of mine is:

Is liomsa an madra.

In all official documents, the phrase "This X remains the property of Y", eg. "This card remains the property of Ulster Bank" as:

Is le hY an X seo.

eg. on my passport:

Is le hAire Gnóthaí Eachtracha na hÉireann an pas seo.



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