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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through September 09, 2004 » Number of Irish Speakers « Previous Next »

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Alevans
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Username: Alevans

Post Number: 123
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, not exactly, but this quote is relevant and funny. Written down in the early 1920s, if I'm not mistaken:

From _An tOileánach_ le Tomás Ó Criomhthain

Bhí sé bliana ar scoil agam, ach ní rabhas im ollamh i mBéarla ná in aon ghaobhar do. Deir fear gurb ollamh i nGaelainn é féin anois, agus gan é á foghlaim ach dhá bhliain, agus roimis an dá bhliain sin ná féadar sé cad é an rud Gaelainn chuige, ach oiread le pilibín míg. Cad fá, mar sin, go ndéir na daoine gur teanga dheacair le foghlaim í? Seo geall le haon duine ná fuil aon teanga insa domhan go bhfuil sé i gcumas duine do bheith ina ollamh gan a bheith ach dhá bhliain á foghlaim. Tá mórán d'ollaimh Ghaelach' insa tír againn anois agus cuid acu nár thug ach bliain á foghlaim.

--Al Evans

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OCG (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 82.69.43.128
Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 03:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

What does he mean by "ollamh" here? An expert speaker, I suppose.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 407
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A very relevant quote, Al Evans. Speaking of An tOileánach, did any of you ever read An Béal Bocht? In my opinion one of the funniest books ever written, the first time I read it (actually looking at out the Blasket from the mainland) I laughed so hard I almost fell from the chair... ;-)

It's an excellent parody of An tOileánach and a couple of other famous Irish books.

Here is are three of my favourite quotes, also relevant to the number of self-reported Irish speakers.

quote 1
which explain why the term Gaeilgeoirí is sometimes used as the opposite to what it really means
Bhí daoine uaisle le feiceáil anois go minic ar na bóithre, cuid acu óg is cuid acu aosta, ag cur Gaeilge ciotaí dothuigthe ar na Gaeil bhochta agus ag cur moille orthu agus iad ag dul faoin ngort. Bhí an Béarla gallda go líofa ó dhúchas ag na daoine uaisle ach ní chleachtaídís an teanga uasal sin i láthair na nGael, ar eagla, dar liom, go bpiocfadh na Gaeil corrfhocal di suas mar dhíon ar dheacrachtaí an tsaoil. Sin mar tháinig an dream sin, dá ngairmtear "na Gaeilgeoirí" anois, go Corca Dhorcha den chéad uair.

quote 2
incredibly apt parody at the expense of those who have learned "Standard Irish" far away from the Gaeltacht and thinks they speak it much better than the native speakers
Labhair an Seanduine Liath faoin gceist seo le Gaeilgeoir uasal a casadh leis.
"Cad chuige agus cad uaidh," ar seisean, "go bhfuil an lucht foghlama ag imeacht uainn? An amhlaidh go bhfuil a oiread sin airgid fágtha acu againn le deich mbliana anuas go bhfuil fóirthint déanta acu ar ocracht na dúiche agus ar an ábhar sin go bhfuil meath ag teacht ar ár nGaeilge?"
"Nee doy lum goh vwill un fukal sin 'meath' eg un Ahur Padur, arsa an Gaeilgeoir go cneasta.
Níor fhreagair an Seanduine an abairt sin ach móide ná go ndearna sé caint bheag os iseal dá chluais féin.
"'Do vool shay an durus amack' - un vwil un aubirch sin ogutt?" arsa an Gaeilgeoir.
"Nawbocklesh, avic, arsa an Seanduine, agus d'imigh leis ar a bhealach lena cheist ina chloigeann fós gan réiteach uirthi.

quote 3
This quote needs no further introduction. One of the best known passages in Irish literature, certainly one of the very funniest in the World literature

"A ghaela," a dúirt sé, "cuireann sé gliondar ar mo chroí Gaelach a bheith anseo inniu ag caint Gaeilge libhse ar an bhfeis Ghaelach seo i lár na Gaeltachta. Ní miste dom a rá gur Gael mise. Táim Gaelach ó mo bhaithis go bonn mo choise - Gaelach thoir, thiar, thuas agus thíos. Tá sibhse go léir fíor-Ghaelach mar an gcéanna. Gaeil Ghaelacha de shliocht Ghaelach is ea an t-iomlán againn. An té atá Gaelach, beidh sé Gaelach feasta. Níor labhar mise, ach a oiread sibh féin, aon fhocal ach Gaeilge ón lá a rugadh mé agus, rud eile, is faoin nGaeilge féin a bhí gach abairt dá ndúras riamh. Má táimíd fíor-Ghaelach, ní foláir dúinn a bheith ag plé cheist na Gaeilge agus cheist an Ghaelachais le chéile i gcónaí. Ní haon mhaitheas Gaeilge a bheith againn má bhíonn ár gcomhrá sa teanga sin ar nithe neamh-Ghaelacha. An té a bhíonn ag caint Gaeilge, ach gan a bheith ag plé cheist na teanga, níl sé fíor-Ghaelach ina chroí: ní haon tairbhe don Ghaelachas a leithéid sin mar gur ag magadh faoin nGaeilge a bhíonn sé agus ag tabhart masla do Ghaelaibh. Níl aon ní ar an domhan chomh deas ná chomh Gaelach le fíor-Ghaeil fhíor-Ghaelacha a bhíonn ag caint fíor-Ghaeilge Gaelaí i dtaobh na Gaeilge fíor-Ghaelaí. Fógraim an fheis seo ar Gael-oscailt. Suas le Gaeil! Go maire ár nGaeilge slán!"

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Alevans
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Username: Alevans

Post Number: 124
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"A ghaela," a dúirt sé, "cuireann sé gliondar ar mo chroí Gaelach...."

Thank you, Jonas! That was superb and hilarious, and I hadn't seen it before.

A little frightening in its relevance, too, from the viewpoint of a non-Gaelic non-Gael....

:-):-)

--Al Evans

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 58
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It's a pity Jonas didn't give you An Seanduine Liath's reaction to the above:

....Ní saoirse go cur le chéile! Gan tír gan teanga! Go maire ár nGaeilge slán!"

"Ní saoirse go Seoirse," arsa an Seanduine i mo chluais. Bhí ardurraim riamh aige do rí Shasana.

"Is cosúil," arsa mise, "go bhfuil an duine seo Gaelach agus lándáiríre i dtaobh na Gaeilge."

"De réir dealraimh." arsa an Seanduine, "is ró-mhaithbheathaithe atá sé in uachtar a chinn."

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Jonas
Member
Username: Jonas

Post Number: 415
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 05:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Very true, Aonghus - but I had to stop somewhere, couldn't give the whole book, much as I'd like to ;-)

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Fabricio
Member
Username: Fabricio

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Please , can anyone help me to translate some senteses from english to irish ? I would really
appreciate ...!
thanks

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Fabricio
Member
Username: Fabricio

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

My Irish Friends....
I´m making an essay about Irish language here at the Pontifícia Universidade Católica de Campinas , Brasil-SP and I need samebody to translate some senteses for me... the sentenses are " Everything that you can Imagine is real " and " the real thing about success is enthusiasm "
could somebody translate this for me please ?!!?
thank you very much!!!

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Roy (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 156.153.255.134
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi,

eventhough I am a foreigner, I wish to add some few of my language experiences.

I am a native Norwegian-speaker, and visited Galway yesterday for the very first time. I chatted with a girl on a pub, and she said: "Your English is very good."
Well, I explained her how children learn English in my home country, and the reason why virtually every child and adult below a certain age in Norway can speak english fluently if needed: In Norway is the television programmes, and movies, in contradiction to other countries in Europe, not dubbed, but displayed with subtitles.
Due to that, most children know good english in the age of 8-9, and when English is introduced in school at the 4. th junior level, at the age of 10, the teachers usually have a very easy job.
I've noted that many in your country complains that too much time is spent on complex grammar, without learning how to actually speak the language.
Well, my first English class when I was ten was starting with singing the children song "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands" - no grammar at all!
Of course, grammar and rules are introduced, but in a careful manner in the early stages, with increasing importance in the higher levels.

I have also studied russian language, both on College, and by living in Russia in three months, and I can assure you that learning a language only by studying complex grammar is like trying to learn to play chess by only studying the rules. Before the 3 month stays in Russia, could I read and write Russian, but was not capable of actually speaking and understanding it orally before after 6-8 weeks in Russia. The first weeks was awful, that is something of the toughest experience I lived trough in my whole sinful life, but after that was i capable to communicate, and to day, by using internet resources and using the proper technique, am I still able to communicate with russianspeakers once a month here in Dublin, with a better performance than when I left Russia, eventhough I don't use it on a daily basis.

I know about military schools in Norway, that guarantee, that if you pass, will be able to speak Russian fluently with a vocabulary at no less then 10 000 words! The technique they utilize is besides using ordinary grammar training, also orders the students to memorize one A4-piece of written text every day, and repeat it by heart the next day simultaneously as they understand the meaning of it - it is not like parrot talking.
Of course, this is a very extreme way of learning, and is only possible due to strict millitary dicipline and very skillfull and top motivated students.

However, maybe it is a question of technique?
If you wish to learn the language fluently, you don't learn word by word, but by learning complete frazes and sentences that can be combined - the human brain treat the frazes like objects, and the more different frazes and expressions you learn, the more versatile can you combine them. When I need to recall a word in Russian, I just think about a fraze that contains the word, strap it out, and construct a new sentence with the word on the fly.

So, maybe the academic style of studying i.e. Irish language is a little bit outdated? Maybe we should learn be the experience of those like me, who have taugh a 3th language almost fluently as adults? Look to the military intelligence services around the world - they would never have employed those technique's if they didn't work - the militaries are not stupid, eventhough they are in a dirty business;)
I don't mean running a junior school with military dicipline, but maybe we can start using the same pedagogical principles?

And besides, much is dependent of the attitude of the parents. My grand mother was a Saami speaker, the language of the indigenous people of the North, but that language died out in my family, because she didn't talked it to my mother when she was a baby. However, even in my country, attitudes are changing, and most young families in the Saami areas speak the language to their children, simultaneously as they get compulsory education in school.

regards
Roy

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 193.1.100.104
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fabricio a chara,

You might like to go for the following.

" Everything that you can Imagine is real "

> 'Is fíor gach ní a samhlaír.'


and " the real thing about success is enthusiasm "

'Is é an rath croílár na díograise.'

or, in an almost similar vein:

'Ní bhíonn an rath ach mar a bhíonn an díograis.'

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 53
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Roy, if I were to say what the main problem is with Irish teaching in Ireland, it's that the teachers aren't even fluent! In my 15 years in school, with 7 different Irish teachers, only 2 of them were properly fluent. My first good Irish teacher was when I was in 5th class. This fella even gave interviews in Irish on the radio about the school band, the school's sports, etc. It was in 5th class that I picked up the basic tenses. Then when I came to secondary school, I had a great teacher for 5 years, and that's how my Gaeilge is at the standard it is now.

Your english is indeed very good! If you like I'll just give you a few tips:

in a pub, in college
explained to her
at the age of 8-9, or around the age of 8-9
"through", not "trough"
"today", not "to day"
"phrases", not "frazes"
dependant on the attitudes

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Roy (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 156.153.255.134
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

""through", not "trough"
"today", not "to day"
"phrases", not "frazes"
dependant on the attitudes"

I know, I know......

Please forgive me for my typos, I was in a hurry, and could not check spelling so accurate now.
(Have work to do also)

Well, if not even the teachers can speak it, then you have a problem...
Many Norwegian teenagers use to take "language trips" to England one year or so just to get more practical training. Since there still is Irish-speaking areas, why couldn't anything similar be done here? Give the pupils or students a scholarship, so they can travel to irish-speaking areas and learn the language there the hard way?
(The hard way, but the most powerful way is the best due to my experiences)
Instead of focusing on the problems, start thinking creative of the different possibilities that is.
You don't have to traverse the seas to get to the land with the target language, you have a unique opportunity to study the target language "onsite" in your home country.
Many language students would envy you for that!

regards
Roy

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 54
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post


quote:

Many Norwegian teenagers use to take "language trips" to England one year or so just to get more practical training. Since there still is Irish-speaking areas, why couldn't anything similar be done here? Give the pupils or students a scholarship, so they can travel to irish-speaking areas and learn the language there the hard way?


An absolutely fantastic idea. Unfortunately though, it falls upon deaf ears here in Ireland.

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 156.153.255.126
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 11:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"An absolutely fantastic idea. Unfortunately though, it falls upon deaf ears here in Ireland."

Ok, I hear you, but I don't understand why that should be a prob?
If the government don't want to help doing it, well, it's not so expencive with B&B on Inishmore, last time I visited was it 32 Euro night including breakfast. For i.e. a month stay is it probably cheaper with accomodation sharing or rent a room at some private parties.
Instead of saving money and spending it in Spain or whatever, shouldn't it be any prob living in Inishmore for a while to achieve more oral training.
I'm just coming with good advices. I can't help you, BUT I can help you to help yourselves;)


regards
Roy

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 420
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Roy, thousands of children are sent to na Gaeltachtaí each summer to learn Irish - just as youngsters from our countries go to England. The problem is that most of these Irish children hear more English than Irish during their in na Gaeltachtaí. The reason is that they outnumber the children actually living there and mostly socialise with each other. Having said that, many Irish people do exactly what you suggest - they go to na Gaeltachtaí and practice their Irish "the hard way". They have been doing for about 100 years now... Unfortunately, (from the language's perspective) the will to use Irish is rather weak amongst the majority of the Irish people

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 156.153.255.126
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 03:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Unfortunately, (from the language's perspective) the will to use Irish is rather weak amongst the majority of the Irish people"

Well, I don't really think that's weird, as long as the majority of Ireland is English-speaking. I think it is more important to preserve the language in the areas where is still is used in the daily life.

I've noted that there are some worries that this language in the future might become extinct.
Well, I've been on Inishmore, and I saw many young people, both children and young ladies on the pub, speaking Irish with their friends and relatives. As long as the language is thaught to the children is there no need to worry about that, althought it might be extinct in PARTS of these areas, the border areas.

For 100 years ago, some in my country feared that the Saami language was due to be exctinct - it was excactly the same as in Ireland, the children were denied to speak their mother's tongue in schools, the Norwegian authorities discouraged the use of it, and the parents adviced their children to learn the language of the colonist, and only that, since it was considered to be best for their future.
However 100 year after, the language still lives, although it indeed have become, with some few exceptions, extinct in the coastal areas in my home county. But, the language still lives in the Inland areas, and it is still being used by the young people. The reason why it still lives, is because the young ones keep it alive, not because they need to, but because they wish to, because they recognize the genuine value about keeping that 2000 year old language alive, and that is what it really is about in my eyes.

Do they have Irish-speaking kindergardens here in Dublin? In my home country they have, even in the capitol, because so many of the indigenous people live and work there.

With regards
Roy

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 97
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 04:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post


quote:

Do they have Irish-speaking kindergardens here in Dublin?




Yes, but too few. Look for naíonraí. Most are attached to a Gaelscoil ( Irish medium primary school)

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michael (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 212.85.1.1
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i have been looking for an irish language school for nearly a year now but i realised it is impossible to fine one! i have been learning irish in england for sometime but my irish is still pathetic. all i want is a class for beginners where i can learn the language for at least 3 or 4 months intensivelly, everyday!!

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 99
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Where are you, michael?

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michael (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 212.85.1.1
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 08:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i am in london. if i am able to speak irish reasonably,(i want to be in an irish speaking environment in ireland for at least 3 months) i can join the irish group in england, etc...but at the moment, it's hopeless to do anything!! all the courses for beginners in ireland are either short term or part-time.

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 105
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 10:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

There isn't much of a market for longer courses.

I'd suggest you go on a short course, and then try to get some private tuition in a Gaeltacht.

Get in touch with either Oideas Gael (http://www.oideas-gael.com) or Gael Linn (http://www.gael-linn.ie )



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