Táim ag léamh "Séanna". Is leabhar é bhí scriobh le Peadar Ó Laoghaire agus creidim is páistí an lucht eisteachta aige. Mar sin féin, tá dúshlán mór agam!

"Bhí fear ann fadó agus is é ainm a bhi air ná Séanna. Gréasaí ba ea é. Bhí teach beag deas cluthar aige ag bun conic ar thoabh na fothana. Bhí cathaoir shúgáin aige a rinne sé féin dó féin. Ba ghnáth leis suí into im thráthnóna nuair a bhíodh abair an lae críochnaithe, agus nuari a shuíodh sé inti bhíodh sé ar a shástacht."

I render it this way:

There was a man there long ago and his name was Seanna. He was a shoemaker (cobbbler). He had a small, fine, warm hous ona small hill at the side of a ravine. He had a straw (perhaps wicker?) chair that he made himself. It was his custom to sit in the evening when the day's work was done and when he was sitting he was happy.

If you could be so kind as to critique the translation I would be most appreciative.

Also, if you could shed some light on "...sé féin dó féin. I took it in context but still don't fully understand how it translates literally.

So far, I've done the first chapter. This is the first paragraph, so stand by for more to follow!!

Le meas,

James

Nothing wrong with that!

I'd say "a nice snug little house at the base of a hill on the sheltered/leeward side" (fothain = shelter).

"a rinne sé fein dó fein" = "that he made by himself for himself" = "he made himself"

So even if you didn't understand it, you got it right! :-)

--Al Evans

Well, your tranlation is rather good. Your Irish also seems quite good (of course, it has to be since you're reading books in Irish.) If you still would want some corrections to what you wrote I'll be happy to provide it. I don't correct people's Irish unless asked to do it - and everything you wrote is perfectly understandable.

May I ask what edition of the book you have? It appears to the watered-down version - the one that would send an tAthair Ua Laoghaire rotating in his grave... ;-)

He wrote Séadna to provide a modern book in idiomatic Irish as it was spoken by him and in his native area. This is how he himself wrote that first paragraph:

"Bhí fear ann fadó agus is é ainm a bhí air ná Séadna. Gréasaí ab ea é. Bhí tigh beag deas cluthar aige ag bun cnoic, ar thaobh na fothana. Bhí cathaoir shúgáin aige do dhein sé féin dó féin, agus ba ghnáth leis suí inti um thráthnóna, nuair a bhíodh obair an lae críochnaithe, agus nuair a shuíodh sé inti bhíodh sé ar a shástacht.

Bhí cathaoir shúgáin aige do dhein sé féin dó féin is He had a straw chair that he had made for himself
(I know what kind of chair is meant, but I don't know if straw chair is the correct English word).

By the way, in the original version the chapter you quoted is considerably longer and it isn't the first chapter; it's the 15th. Anyway, it's a great book and quite easy to read. Best of luck with it!

Jonas, A Chara:

Don't hesitate to correct my Irish! My skin is rather thin in some areas but not when it comes to my Irish. I certainly know that I'm in what seems to be a terminal beginner status!

I had no idea that this book had that kind of history to it. I picked it up in a small Irish shop in Newport, Rhode Island. The lady seemed a bit shocked that I would buy it, but it has been a tremendously enjoyable endeavor.

This particular version is published by Cois Life Teoranta. As I look into things a bit deeper, it does seem that an Athair Ó Laoghaire wrote it back around 1910. The inside front cover reads:

Legan coimrithe cóirithe de Séadna leis an Athair Peadar Ó Laoghaire, Brun agus Ó Nualláin Teo. 1910.

I'll post the next paragraph in this chapter soon. I've already translated it, but it takes a while to type things in with all the fadas and such.

Le meas,

James

Second paragraph, Chapter 1 in my version of the book ;)

Bhí mealbhóg mine aige ar crochadh in aice na tine, agus anois agus arís chuireadh sé a lámh inti agus thógadh sé lán a dhoirn den mhin, agus bhíodh sé á cogaint ar a shuaimhneas. Bhí crann úll ag fás taobh amuigh de dhoras aige, agus nuair a bhíodh tart air chuireadh sé lámh sa chrann sin agus thógadh sé ceann de na húlla, agua d’itheadh sé é.

My rendition:

He had a small sawdust satchel hanging on a hook beside the fire and now and again, he put his hand in and took it out full of of sawdust and ground it up in his tranquility. (This part doesn't sound right in english but maybe it's OK as gaeilge). There was an apple tree growing outside of his door and when he was thirsty he would bury his hand in that tree and remove one of the apples and he would eat it.

This is where I start to get a bit off kilter, in my opinion. Now that I know the book was written with an intent toward idiomatic Irish, perhaps things do look a bit more acceptable, but still....I'll welcome any input!

Le meas,

James

I'd suggest:

"He had a small bag of meal hanging next to him by the fire...and chewed it at his leisure."

--Al Evans

Now, that does seem to make more sense!

Go raibh maith agat, mo chara.

AFAIK, Séadna was the first novel in Irish...

Súgán is rope made out of straw and used to make the seat of a chair that has a wooden frame.

Yes, the good father Ua Laoghaire had a rather interesting story. Together with persons such as Douglas Hyde he was one of the first and loudest defenders of Irish and crucial for the revival. Unlike so many others, he was a native speaker as well. He was very passionate about reviving Irish but also very passionate about how that revived Irish should be. He was the loudest and most active of the group that wanted an Irish language fully based on the natural speech of na Gaeltachtaí - for this reason he became "leader of the opposition" againt the Standard Irish that was made up in Dublin; he perceived it to be unnatural.

Ua Laoghaire (he himself would never have written Ó Laoghaire) wrote two famous book, Séadna and his autobiography. Of course he wrote them in the Irish he spoke himself, the one he had learnt in his native area. He said that Séadna did not contain one word or one phrase that he hadn't heard from the lips of native speakers in Co. Cork. It is of course a great irony that his books became so famous, because after his death they were republished in the very same standardised form of Irish against which Ua Laoghaire had fought so hard. Both the very first editions - when Ua Laoghaire was still alive - and the last ones (mine is from 1995) are in the Irish it was written in, but many editions between them are in the standardised language.

The second paragraph you sent is not a paragraph of its own in the original, it the second half of the first paragraph you sent us. In this paragraph too I've marked out the changes between the standardised version and the "Ua Laoghaire-Irish" version in bold.

Bhí mealbhóg mine aige ar crochadh in aice na tine, agus anois agus arís chuireadh sé a lámh inti agus thógadh sé lán a dhoirn den mhin, agus bhíodh sé á cogaint ar a shuaimhneas. Bhí crann úll ag fás ar an dtaobh amuigh de dhoras aige, agus nuair a bhíodh tart air ó bheith ag cogaint na mine, chuireadh sé lámh sa chrann san agus thógadh sé ceann des na húllaibh, agus d’itheadh sé é.

"min" is anything milled.

min [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
arbhar meilte ina phúdar (min choirce, min bhuí).


min sáibh (púdar sábhadóireachta).

Táim ag léamh, fós!

Lá dá raibh sé ag déanamh bróg, thug sé faoi deara nach raibh a thuilleadh leathair aige ná a thuilleadh snátha, ná a thuilleadh céarach. Ghluais sé ar maidin agus bhí trí scilling ina phóca, agus ní raibh sé ach míle ón teach nuair a bhuail duine bocht leis, ag iarraidh déirce.

“Tabhair dom déirc ar son an tSlánaitheora,” arsa an duine bocht. Thug Séanna scilling dó, agus ansin ní raibh aige ach dhá scilling. Dúirt sé leis féin go ndéanfadh an dá scilling a ghnó. Ní raibh sé ach míle eile ó bhaile nuair a bhuail bean bhocht leis agus í cosnocht.

“Tobhair dom cúnamh éigin,” ar sise, “ar son an tSlánaitheora.” Ghlac trua di é agus thug sé scilling di, agus d’imigh sí. Niorbh fhada gur casadh air leanbh agus é ag gol le fuacht agus le hocras.

“Ar son an tSlánaitheora,” arsa an leanbh, “tabhair dom rud éigin le hithe.”

Bhí teach ósta I ngar dóibh agus chuaigh Séanna isteach ann agus cheannaigh sé bríce aráin agus thug sé chun an linbh é. Nuair a fuair an leanbh an t-arán d’athraigh a dheibh. D’fhás séuas in aired agus las solas iontach ina shúile, i dtreo gur tháinig scanradh ar Shéanna. Chomh luath agus d’fhéad sé labhairt, dúirt sé: “Cad é an saghas duine tusa?”

Agus is é freagra a fuair sé:

A Shéanna, tá Dia buíoch díot. Aingeal is ea mise. Is mise an tríú haingeal ar thug tú déirc dó inniu. Agus anois tá trí ghuí agat le fáil. Ach tá comhairle agama le tabhairt duit—ná dearmad an trócaire”.


My attempt at a translation:

One day (??) when he was working on a shoe he noticed that he had no more leather, no more thread and no more .....(can't find this word in my dictionary.) He went forth on the morning and there were 3 shillings in his pocket, and he wasn't but a mile from home when he encountered a poor person(was hit upon by a poor person)seeking charity.

"Give me charity for the sake of our Saviour" said the poor person. Séanna gave him a shilling and then he didin't have but two shillings. He said to himself (??) that 2 shillings would do. He was but another mile from home when a poor woman struck upon him and she was barefoot.

"Give me some help," she said, "in the name of the Saviour." He took pity on her and he gave her a shilling and she left. It wasn't long that a turn was on him (that he caome to a turn in the road?). A child and he was crying with cold and hunger. (I've missed something here in the syntax, I'm afraid.)

"For the sake of the Saviour," said the child, "give me something to eat."

There was a lodging house close by them and Séanna went inside there and purchased a loaf of bread and took it to the child. When the child got the bread he changed his shape. He grew in height and a wonderful bright light (two adjectives that seem to say the same thing here..took a bit of liberty) in his eye in such a way that fright came upon Séanna. As soon as he was able to speak he said, "what sort of person are you?"

And this is the answer he got:

Séanna, God is thankful to you. I am an Angel. I am the third angel you gave your charity to today. And now there are three wishes available to you. (three entreaties). But, I will cooperate in granting them (this is wrong, I'm almost certain). Don't forget the wretched (poor?)

As always..I am more than open to critiques and clarifications.

Go raibh mile maith agaibh!

Agus, A Jonas...still waiting for that earlier correction on my Irish!!!

"Niorbh fhada gur casadh air leanbh agus é ag gol le fuacht agus le hocras."

I'd say,

It wasn't long before he came across a child, who was crying from cold and hunger.

"Ach tá comhairle agam le tabhairt duit—ná dearmad an trócaire."

I'd say,

But I have a piece of advice to give you - do not forget to be merciful. [lit. "do not forget mercy"]

--Al Evans

Well done for keeping on, James! You're doing great. Your translation certainly shows that you're able both to read and to translate. Only some small mistakes there - those pointed out by Alevans. I agree with those corrections except for the "to be merciful". The "Trocáire" (capital letter in the original) seems to be some sort of blessing - that God forgive your sins or something like that. Most likely there is an English term for it that I don't know - I'm not Catholic - but that is known to you.

"Do not forget the forgiveness" is how I'd put it, with the correct term inserted.

I see that the version you're reading is quite considerably shortened. Not only is the whole story of the girls - a substantial frame-story in the book - 100% left out, much else is also left out. I've not only put the differences between the Standard Version - capital letters used ironically... ;-) - and the original version in bold, I've done the same thing with the parts left out.

One of the most interesting things, in my opinion, is to see the difference between the Standard and the original, dialectal.

Lá dá raibh sé ag déanamh bróg, thug sé fé ndeara ná raibh a thuilleadh leathair aige, ná a thuilleadh snáithe, ná a thuilleadh céarach. Bhí an taoibhín déanach suas agus an greim déanach curtha, agus níorbh fholáir dó dul agus abhar do sholáthar sara bhféadfadh sé a thuilleadh bróg a dhéanamh. Do ghluais sé ar maidin, agus bhí trí scillinge ina phóca, agus ní raibh sé ach míle ón dtigh nuair a bhuail duine bocht uime, a d'iarraidh déarca.

“Tabhair dhom déirc ar son an tSlánaitheora agus le hanaman do mharbh, agus tar cheann do shláinte,” arsa an duine bocht.
Thug Séanna scilling dó, agus ansan ní raibh aige ach dhá scilling. Dúirt sé leis féin go mb'fhéidir go ndéanfadh an dá scilling a ghnó. Ní raibh sé ach míle eile ó bhaile nuair a bhuail bean bhocht uime agus í cosnochtaithe.

“Tabhair dhom cúnamh éigin,” ar sise, “ar son an tSlánaitheora agus le hanaman do mharbh, agus tar cheann do shláinte,.”
Do ghlac trua dhi é agus thug sé scilling di, agus d’imigh sí. Do bhí aon scilling amháin ansan aige, ach do chomáin sé leis, ag brath air go mbuailfeadh seans éigin uime a chuirfeadh ar a chumas a ghnó a dhéanamh. Niorbh fhada gur casadh air leanbh agus é ag gol le fuacht agus le hocras.

“Ar son an tSlánaitheora,” arsa an leanbh, “tabhair dhom rud éigin le n-ithe.”

Bhí tigh ósta i ngar dóibh, agus do chuaigh Séadna isteach ann, agus cheannaigh sé bríc aráin agus thug sé chun an linbh é. Nuair a fuair an leanbh an t-arán d’athraigh a dhealbh. D’fhás sé suas in aoirde, agus do las solas iúntach ina shúilibh agus ina cheannachaibh, i dtreo go dtáinig scanradh ar Shéadna.

Chomh luath agus d’fhéad sé labhairt, dúirt sé:
“Cad é an saghas duine thusa?” Agus is é freagra a fuair sé:

"A Shéadna, tá Dia baoch díot. Aingeal is ea mise. Is mise an tríú haingeal gur thugais déirc dó inniu ar son an tSlánaitheora. Agus anois tá trí ghuí agat le fáil ó Dhia na glóire. Iarr ar Dhia aon trí ghuí is toil leat, agus gheobhair iad. Ach tá aon chomhairle amháin agamsa le tabhairt duit. Bá dearmhaid an Trócaire”.

Táim ag léamh "Séanna".
Good, fine Munster Irish!

Is leabhar é bhí scriobh le Peadar Ó Laoghaire

This is where father Ua Laoghaire would start rotating, though not because of any formal error. Rather because:
1. Everyone likes to see their name spelled right. Many Munster names still use Ua instead of the modern Ó. So did Ua Laoghaire all his life.
2. Ua Laoghaire is the very man who protested strongly against the introduction of le with the passive - he claimed that it was not natural Irish. He was most probably right at the time, but since it was accepted into the Standard you make no error in using it. Though Ua Laoghaire would certianly have thought so... There are a couple of real errors, though. I'd say
Leabhar is ea é a scriobh Peadar Ua Laoghaire The simplest way to say it is of course Scríobh Peadar Ua Laoghaire an leabhar so. If you really want to use the passive, say Leabhar is ea é atá scríte ag Peadar Ua Laoghaire.

agus creidim is páistí an lucht eisteachta aige.
I'm not absolutely sure what your intention is here. Two obvious things:
1. I'd advice is dóigh liom instead of creidim. As a native Swedish speaker I'm not suited to tell anyone here about the finer nuances of English, but I'm under the impression there is a fine distinction between "I believe" and "I think", isn't it?
2. No matter what form you use - is dóigh liom or creidim - you have to change is to gur.
After these two (or rather 1½) corrections the sentence looks better, but still not right. If you tell us in English what you intended, it shall be sortened out in no time. And by the way, don't think that your Irish is bad just because there is a sentence that isn't clear to me. A very small error indeed can make a sentence ambiguous.

All in all, very few errors! Absolutely nothing compared to the thousands of silly mistakes I've made during the years - fortunately they tend to decrease the more practice you get.

It is a book that was written by ......and I believe it's audience it children.

That's what I was trying to say. Of course, I've probably said something completely off base.

You are correct about the subtle difference regarding "I believe" and "I think." I've fallen into to traps here. One, as a Catholic, I'm used to "Creidim" in the Nicene Creed we say during Mass. Second, with Spanish as my first "foreign" language I recognize a commonality between Creidim and Creer (infinitive verb meaning "to believe") which is used to mean "To think" as well as "To believe." Of course, in Spanish there is another verb which is more specifically "to think" (Pensar) but it is more of an act of thinking rather than to think/believe. (Pensar....pensive).

What I need to do is start using dóigh more, I guess.

I'm away from my books for the next 12 hours so indulge me the one favor of explanation....why does is become gur? I'm sure it's in my books and I could find it if I had them with me. Finding it on my own is my preference, though!

For "readership", the people the book is aimed at, I would recommend:

lucht léite - readership

lucht éisteachta - audience

lucht féachanta - viewership

It's not that easy to say why is becomes gur, mostly because it's so natural that you normally don't even think about it. Why does go become went? :-)

I guess you know that tá becomes go bhfuil in many cases. In all those cases, is becomes gur.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil sé anso. = I know that he is here
Tá a fhios agam gur múinteoir é. = I know that he is a teacher.

James,

"...creidim is páistí an lucht eisteachta aige..."

"Is" becomes "gur" because "is páistí..." is a subordinate clause, and needs a relative conjunction to connect it to the rest of the sentenct.

In English, it would be "I believe that his audience was children", but you can leave out the "that". In Spanish, it would be "credo que...", and you could not leave out the "que". In Irish, you can't leave out the "go/gur".

I hope that's helpful.

--Al Evans

Thanks! It's much clearer now.

As I said in an earlier post, the entire frame-story is missing from the Standard Version. It's a pity, because most people think the Irish in the frame story is superior by far to that in the story itself. Being both easy to read and highly idiomatic, tt's especially usefull to beginners. To give you all a sample of it, here's the conversation from the paragraphs that James has given us. My advice to everyone eager about Irish is to study the conversation very carefully.

SÉADNA

Caibideal a hAon

Cois na tine. Peig, Nóra, Gobnait, Síle bheag, agus Cáit Ní Bhuachalla.

NÓRA: A Pheig, inis scéal dúinn.
PEIG: B'ait liom san! Inis féin scéal.
GOBNAIT: Níl aon mhaith inti, a Pheig. B'fhearr linn do scéalsa.
SÍLE: Dein, a Pheig. Beimíd ana-shocair.
PEIG: Nach maith nár fhanais socair aréir, nuair a bhí Madra na nOcht gCos agam dá insint!
SÍLE: Mar sin ní stadfadh Cáit Ní Bhuachalla ach am priocadh.
CÁIT: Thugais d'éitheach! Ni rabhas-sa ad phriocadh, a chaillichín!
GOBNAIT: Ná bac í féin, a Cháit. Ní raibh aoinne á priocadh ach í á ligint uirthi.
SÍLE: Do bhí, is dóin; agus mara mbeadh go raibh, ní liúfainn.
NÓRA: Abair le Peig ná liúfair anois, a Shíle, agus 'neosfaidh sí scéal dúinn.
SÍLE: Ní liúfad, a Pheig, pé rud a imeoidh orm.
PEIG: Más ea, suigh anso im aice, i dtreo ná féadfaidh aoinne thú a phriocadh i gan fhios dom.
CÁIT: Bíodh geall go bpriocfaidh an cat í. A thoice bhig, bheadh scéal breá againn mara mbeadh tú féin agus do chuid liúirí.
GOBNAIT: Éist, a Cháit, nó cuirfir ag gol í, agus beimíd gan scéal. Má curtar fearg ar Pheig ní 'neosfaidh sí aon scéal anocht. Sea anois, a Pheig, tá gach aoinne ciúin ag brath ar scéal uait.
-----
This is very Peig starts to tell the story; when she have told us who Séadna is and about his chair, his meal and his apple tree she is interupted.

SÍLE: Ó, a thiarcais, a Pheig, nár dheas é!
PEIG: Cé acu an chathaoir nó an mhin nó an t-úll ba dheas?
SÍLE: An t-úll, gan amhras!
CÁIT: B'fhearr liomsa an mhin. Ní bhainfeadh an t-úll an t-ocras de dhuine.
GOBNAIT: B'fhearr liomsa an chathaoir, agus chuirfinn Peig ina suí inti, ag insint na scéal.
PEIG: Is maith chun plámáis tú, a Ghobnait.
GOBNAIT: Is fearr chun na scéal tusa, a Pheig. Conas d'imigh le Séadna?
-----

And Peig continues her story. Most chapters begin or end with these kind of conversations. I think they are perfect for the serious learner - better than the story itself - since they give us actual, living conversational Irish.

why does IS become GUR? Here's the way it was explained to me. For example:-

He is a strong man = Is fear laidir e.

I know= Ta a fhios agam

that = go.

I know that he is a strong man.
(Ta a fhios agam go is fear laidir e.)

However, whe go and is come together they contract into gur. so we now have the correct rendering=

Ta a fhios agam gur fear laidir e.

Regarding the sentence "creidim is paisti an lucht eisteachta aige", here's my proposed translation:=

Creidim gur paisti iad an lucht eisteachta (ata no a bhi) aige. (I think his listeners are or were children.)

I am not absolutely certain that any of the above is correct but I feel comfortable speaking Irish that way.

I forgot to put my user name on my last posting (about IS becoming GUR). Sorry.

Her's anothe example which has just occured to me.

John is the captain = Is e Sean an captaen.

They say that John is the captain = Deirtear gurb e Sean an captaen.

In this sentence GURB is a contraction of GO and IS. I don't know why the letter B is there. Perhaps for the sake of euphony bcecause the following word begins with a vowel or is there some grammatical explanation that I am unaware of? Could someone help me out here? Thanks.

Sorry again but my user name doesn't seem to be getting through. It is TSJ