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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through August 22, 2004 » Learning Irish ch. 7 « Previous Next »

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Cormac
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Username: Cormac

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In the text ó siadhail writes:

Bíonn cait dhall mar sin go minic.

Now, from my understanding of the chapter, it should be "cait dhalla" since with adjectives modifying nouns in plural, an "a" is added after broad consonants and, after nouns ending in a consonant, the adjective is also lenited...

can anyone explain what I'm missing...

g.r.m.a.

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Cormac
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Username: Cormac

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Maybe it's because "dall" is used a noun??

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 04:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

cat dall
cait dhalla

buachaill beag
buachaillí beaga

Tá na buachaillí beag

Bíonn cait dhall

Ní féidir liom an séimhiú atá ar "dall" a mhíniú thuas, déarfainnse "Bíonn cait dall" ina ionad.

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Cormac
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Username: Cormac

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I understand the grammar of 'cat dall' 'buachaill beag' 'buachaillí beaga' ...

but 'cait dhalla' i dont understand. 'dhalla' for example gets marked as a spelling mistake in my spell checker in word and ó siadhail don't use it either. But I dont know why it is wrong :-(

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Cormac
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Username: Cormac

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

also in chapter 7, without any explantion (that I can find) ó saidhail starts spelling 'fuinneogaí' with the í at the end. in previous chapters he spells it 'fuinneoga'

Cén fath?

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 369
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 05:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't know for sure, but I would say he starts off with fairly regular spelling and then goes on to writing as it is pronounced. The written version is certainly fuinneoga - as is the pronunciation in Munster. In Connacht it's pronounced as is spelled fuinneogaí.
In Cois Fhairrge at least you can find cat being pronounced cait. That is why he uses dhall, it's in the singular.

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OCG (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 82.69.43.131
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, he should have stuck to one spelling all through the book. What was he thinking of?

All the same, it's an excellent course.

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Maidhc Ó G. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 65.54.98.154
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Actually it's explained in the beginning of the book that he does this so that you can easier read along while listening to the tapes. You can later adjust your spelling of the language after you're more adept at speaking it.

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Cormac
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Username: Cormac

Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 05:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

In Cois Fhairrge at least you can find cat being pronounced cait. That is why he uses dhall, it's in the singular

hmmm...in the vocabulary 'cait' is listed as plural

cat (pronounced kut) = cat
cait (pronounced kit') = cats

Also, at the back of the book it is translated as 'Blind cats are often like that'


Actually it's explained in the beginning of the book that he does this so that you can easier read along while listening to the tapes. You can later adjust your spelling of the language after you're more adept at speaking it.

What is explained, in Appendix III, is that standard spelling is used throughout except for some departures where Cois Fhairrge spelling is used. For example 'fuinneoig' instead of 'fuinneog'. But what confuses me is why he writes 'fuinneoga' in chapter 3, but 'fuinneogaí' in chapter 7. Or also in chapter 7, where he gives 'rifíneacha' in the vocabulary but 'rifíneachaí' in the text o_O. If there was a unique Cois Fhairrge spelling why was it not given in the first pace in the vocabulary list (like he does with other words).

Or what am I missing here :( ?

(Message edited by cormac on August 11, 2004)

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 373
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 05:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

If the translation is "Blind cats are often like that" I agree it's in the plural ;-)

Still, the insertion of "i" in Cois Fhairrge is rather common. For instance, they have muic instead of standard muc.

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Celtoid
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Username: Celtoid

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's the answer. Learning Irish, p.28, 5(i) "After MOST nouns.......an unstressed vowel is added."

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Cormac
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Username: Cormac

Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 08:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

yeah i noticed that, but I was looking for an explanation of when the unstressed vowel is not added (as is the case with dall)...but it seems there is no rule and one just has to learn these exceptions...

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 377
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 08:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The reason there is no rule is quite simple, you can hear good native speakers use an adjective with or without the plural ending. Sometimes even in the same sentence or at least in the same conversation.

As a good rule of thumb, with long adjectives you can usually skip the ending.

rudaí beaga could hardly become rudaí beag, that would sound quite strange.
rudaí tabhachtacha on the other hand, while correct, sounds almost pedantic. I'd say most native speakers would go for rudaí tabhachtach in natural conversations.

Of course there are variations, not only between dialects but also between age groups and individuals.

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OCG (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 82.69.43.128
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks Jonas, I've often wondered about that. For example,

"Daoine cruthaitheacha" is really difficult to say, and be heard clearly, whereas if you remove the final "a" it's much easier and clearer.

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Cormac
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Username: Cormac

Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ceann eile:

Ba amhlaidh a brúdh doras a hárasáin isteach le fórsa. Cheap na Gardaí, mar sin, go raibh sí i dtrióblóid éigin.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ broke the door of her apartment in by force. The gardaí thought, because of that, that she was in some trouble.

Am I close?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ba amhlaidh - it was the case that


quote:

Ba amhlaidh a brúdh doras a hárasáin isteach le fórsa




It was the case that the door of her aparment had been forced.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Another translation of "is amhlaidh" would be "it so happens".

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OCG (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 82.69.43.128
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

... a brúdh doras a hárasáin..

the door of her apartment was broken (autonomous form)



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