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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through August 22, 2004 » Direct and indirect relatives « Previous Next »

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Celtoid (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 07:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A while back, Fear na mBróg posted "Sin é an buachaill a bhuaileann Seán. (That is the boy that beats Seán.) Sin é an buachaill a mbuaileann Seán. (That is the boy that Seán beats.)" Is that correct? My books say that indirect relatives are used where there's a prepositional relationship, time, place, way/reason, or a genetive relation. I was unable to find an example like the one Fear na mBróg gave. But I couldn't think of how else to say "That is the boy that Seán beats.".

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sin an buachaill a mbuaileann Seán.
Sin an buachaill go mbuaileann Seán.

The two above definitely mean "That's the boy the Seán beats". Unfortunately:

Sin an buachaill a bhuaileann Seán.

is inconclusive, as for example, you'll hear:

Cad a dúirt an buachaill?

When really it should be:

Cad a ndúirt an buachaill?
Cad go ndúirt an buachaill?

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Celtoid (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 07:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá brón orm, a Fhear na mBróg, but I fail to see how the second example is inconclusive. And I still can't find an example in my dictionary like the one you gave.

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's an example:

Cad a bhuaileann an buachaill?

You can only determine from context whether that means "What hits the boy?" or "What does the boy hit?", similarly with "Chonaic mé a leabhar", you can only determine from context whether it's "his book", "her book" or "their book".

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Celtoid
Member
Username: Celtoid

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 08:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

But, by the example you originally gave, wouldn't "What does the boy hit?" be "Cad a mbuaileann an buachaill?"

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, but what I'm saying is that despite that, people still do say:

Cad a bhuaileann an buachaill?

when they're expressing "What does the boy hit?". An example would be:

Cad a fheiceann an cailín?

There's no urú, so that must mean "What sees the girl?". BUT... you'll commonly see that used to mean "What does the girl see?". Context context context.

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Celtoid
Member
Username: Celtoid

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Maith go leor. But couldn't that also apply to "Sin é an buachaill a bhuaileann Seán."?



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