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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through August 06, 2004 » Help on learning q-celtic « Previous Next »

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Elgyn (212.98.219.254 - 212.98.219.254)
Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi
I am from Istanbul, Turkey. I'd appreciate if you could help me with learning the celtic language. I was looking around on the net but could not found anything. I'm very interested in learning the language. If someone have an idea where to look please reply to my mail.

Thanks in advance for your help.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.32 - 159.134.100.32)
Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The language to which you refer, Celtic, is long gone. Just as Latin has been replaced with Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan; Celtic has been replaced with Gaeilge, Scot's Gaelic, Manx.

This particular site and newsgroup is to do with Gaeilge.

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UMG (220.233.19.174 - 220.233.19.174)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

In fact, contrary to the last mail, celtic is not, and never has been one language per se(and hence it cannot be gone anywhere). I would tend to ignore that rather abrupt posting which I'm sure is a result of the misplaced enthusiam of youth.

Celtic is a general term for a group of loosely related Indo-European languages that are related to one another in the same way that the Slavic languages are related, i.e. broadly. In subdividing these into q and p celtic, one is making some broad brush assumptions regarding the relationship between several of these celtic tongues.

If Q-celtic is indeed your interest then I suggest Irish be your starting point. The term Gaeilge the last submission refers to is one of several words for the particular brand of Modern Day Irish, in that particular language. Irish is the standard English word for the language now spoken natively by a small minority on the west coast of Ireland. Be warned however, a level of academic snobbery pervades the learning of this language; In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, as it were.

So, learn Irish and you'll have a ready source of modern literature - try "learn Irish" in Google and I'm sure you'll have hours of reading material!

By the way, it's a nice easy language and a great source of chat up lines!

Best of luck,

UMG

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.244.249 - 213.94.244.249)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

UMG, get yourself a dictionary and look up:

An Cheiltis

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.244.249 - 213.94.244.249)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post


Quote:

I would tend to ignore that rather abrupt posting which I'm sure is a result of the misplaced enthusiam of youth.


You obviously feel threatened by me. Is it because my intelect is comparable to yours if not superior despite your advanced years?

Quote:

a level of academic snobbery pervades the learning of this language; In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king, as it were.


And would this kingdom be the Gaeltacht?

Quote:

So, learn Irish and you'll have a ready source of modern literature - try "learn Irish" in Google and I'm sure you'll have hours of reading material!

By the way, it's a nice easy language and a great source of chat up lines!


The original poster never mentioned wanting to learn Gaeilge specificly. He was seeking information on the Celtic language. There was, once upon a time, a language called "Celtic", just as there was a language called "Latin"; but now, we have Spanish, Portuguese, Gaeilge, Scot's Gaelic, Manx, Cornish.

The last fluent speaker of Cornish died about a year or 2 ago I believe.

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Fed Up (132.236.122.29 - 132.236.122.29)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Fear na mBróg: I'm not sure whether you are deliberately trolling, or if the dogmatic and confrontational style of your prolific posting is just due to your immaturity. But I doubt I'm alone in feeling that, in the course of a few short months, you have practically ruined this board.

The Daltaí boards are here for the enjoyment and advancement of the language, but the tone you adopt impedes both of those goals.

Please drop the name-calling and schoolboy attitude. If this rubbish continues I won't be coming back...

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.68 - 213.94.242.68)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Won't be coming back? And who would you be?

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Jim OConnor (66.185.84.209 - 66.185.84.209)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

O dia gac aon cabair.

Can someone please respond with english interpretation for the above.

Thanks

JimO

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UMG (203.12.172.254 - 203.12.172.254)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm getting fond of your postings - they annoyed me at first but I got over that. I especially like to think that the last Cornish speaker died recently - that's a real pity. I wonder did he or she like Rave or Hip Hop?

Or was it earlier she died?

http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/langfaq.html

Keep them coming - I need the laughs.

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Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It is useful to have someone around who already knows everything, isn't it?

Oh, and Jim:

"All help comes from God"

Only you'd spell it "Ó Dhía gach aon cabhair". There were probably dots over the D, c, and b in whatever inscription you copied it from -- these are represented in the Roman alphabet as an "h" following the letter.

--Al Evans

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Jim OConnor (66.185.84.209 - 66.185.84.209)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi Al, Your response is very much appreciated.

Thanks

Jimo

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UMG (203.12.172.254 - 203.12.172.254)
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It's great indeed to have a sage in our midst. We should be thankful I suppose...

By the way, nicely spotted concerning the dots over the letters - my Dad still writes like that using the old script. He has a load of old schoolbooks in that font that I take out every so often. It's a pity it's gone, in a way...

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Jonas (62.80.130.36 - 62.80.130.36)
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 05:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just to clear some things up:

The last fluent speaker of Cornish died about a year or 2 ago I believe

No. Cornish first died out in 1789 (or around that time, people aren't 100% sure). In the beginning of the 20th century Cornish was revived and today there are a number of Cornish speakers, about 3000 able to speak some Cornish although the number of fluent speakers is much lower. There are fluent speaker, though - there are even children brought up with Cornish as their first language.

As for the supposed Celtic language: most linguists agree that at some stage there has been a Celtic ursprache or possibly a number of closely related languages. What is certain is that this language(s) was never known by the name "Celtic" to its speakers and we have almost no idea of how it looked, let alone sounded. The earlist Celtic language we known anyting about is Gaulish, and by that time the split between p-celtic and q-celtic had already taken place. The best source for q-celtic is of course Old Irish (which we know very well), from which Irish, Scottish Gaelic and Manx have developed.

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D (213.190.149.122 - 213.190.149.122)
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 08:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is there any site on-line which has comparisons between Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic and Manx Gaelic? it would be nice to know some Manx based on our knowledge of Irish, dont you think?

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James (151.213.114.69 - 151.213.114.69)
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

UMG,

Excellent link. I just hate it when the facts contradict assertions!

We had a young chap very similar to Fear na mBrog on this board about a year or so ago. Can't remember his name, though. Anyway, he left (or perhaps he's back?) after a short while. Give this one no heed nor mind. He'll be off in a bit and the old stalwarts will still be here!

Le meas,

James

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.245.36 - 213.94.245.36)
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Why all the ageism? James, UMG, I've been here for at least a year. I enjoy posting here and I ain't gonna stop any time soon.

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James (151.213.80.213 - 151.213.80.213)
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

No "age-ism", mo chara.

However, the preoccupation with "isms" is an indicator in and of itself.

As I've said, I respect your knowledge of Irish I just don't appreciate the "superior" attitude with which you deliver it.

Keep posting. You are more than welcome here as is anyone with a true interest in the language. (And no one can doubt your interest, nor your dedications.) I just wish you could be a bit more "user friendly"!

Le meas,

James

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.244 - 213.94.242.244)
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I do try to be user friendly, but people who object to being corrected irritate me, like OCG; when he'd say the likes of "ag milleadh an teanga", and I'd post afterwards correcting him "ag milleadh na teanga", I'm not trying to be the master scrutanizing his work, I'm just genuinely trying to help him, because if I was in his position, I'd like if some-one could point out what I'm doing wrong and help me. But he objects to being corrected. He doesn't want to be corrected. That just conveys to me that he's a stupid little child that doesn't want to improve his Gaeilge at all. If I'd taken his attitude when starting out, I'd still be saying "Tá mé fear".

But then there's other people in the group that openly thank me for correcting them, while in the exact same situation some attack me. Take that idiot for instance that posted "Stad." after one of my posts. The post to which he was referring was one which dealt with a grammar issue: if it was right to say:

A) Siúil ar son stádas oifigiúil don Ghaeilge
or
B) Siúil ar son stádais ofigiúil don Ghaeilge

After reading through grammar books I finally found out that A is the correct one. As such, I posted my findings in the spirit that other people would appreciate it and learn from it and improve their own Gaeilge. But quite the contrary, some-one replies, without specifying his/her name, making a stupid statement like "Stad.". I find a lot around here that the people who post to attack me don't give their names. One particular person posted with his name as something like "Fed up" and his post described how my actions had destroyed the group and that he/she was now leaving the group. Well if that person wasn't in the group in the first place OR they refuse to give their name, then their statement is moot, and they're just wasting their time in their childish ways trying to succeed with their little bit of broken Irish.

So I'll re-iterate again: When I see some-one post a bit of Gaeilge and I see a mistake I'm going to follow the following routine:

1) Is it just a typo? eg. Chonaic mé an faer. If so, ignore it.

2) Is it obviously not a typo? eg. Níor rinne mé é. If so, then I'm going to correct the person in the spirit that they'll learn from it. I'll reply with the likes of:

Rinne mé
Ní dhearna me
An ndearna tú?
(It's irregular)

If that person then chooses to attack me, well I don't give a shit, I'm going to keep on correcting them.

I hope the majority of the group approves.

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Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

> I hope the majority of the group approves.

The position you're taking has existed as long as the internet. It's usually called "Grammar Nazi".

In the fifteen years I've been on the net, I have never, never seen anyone say, "thank you, Mister Grammar Nazi."

Correction of grammar is useful when it is explicitly requested. Otherwise, it chills communication.

I'm presently reading _An tOileánach_ le Tomás Ó Criomhthain. I daresay I can find many examples of syntax in these memoirs that you would account "grammatical errors". Nevertheless, it is a classic of Irish literature.

When you have written a classic of Irish literature, I will be interested in your thoughts on correct syntax. If I ask the correct form of something, I will be interested in your opinion. I would be even more likely to be interested if you were man enough to give your actual name.

But otherwise, no thanks.

And that's about all I have to say about that.

--Al Evans

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James (151.213.85.214 - 151.213.85.214)
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

As I've stated in the past. Your Irish far exceeds mine and I take no issue with your proficiency. My issue (and that of others) is that you seem to present things as 100% fact, "my way or the highway", etc, with no room for discussion/difference of opinion. Further, your style seems abrupt and not the least encouraging.

Again, for the record...I take no issue with your Irish. But, this is a forum for learners, and this page specifically, tends to attract the beginner. Such a dogmatic approach tends to be a "turn-off" to the majority of beginning students.

Keep posting, mo chara. Just, if you would, keep in mind that there are many silent observers who may be discouraged from participating as a result of your direct, "no frills" approach. Try to be more of a teacher and less of a lecturer.

Ard mheas,

James



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