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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through August 06, 2004 » "roinne"? « Previous Next »

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Celtoid (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 06:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cén míniú a bhaintear as an abairt seo: "Níor lúide a stór seo, mar bhí an-ardu dó anois thar is a chéad am ar tháinig sé anall, agus ina cheann sin bhí malairt oibre aige sa monarcha, mar ghíománach d'fheidhmeannach a roinne féin.", go háirithe "a roinne féin"?

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.59 - 159.134.109.59)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 08:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This's stock wasn't less, as there was a great raise for him now for more than the first time, and in that there was a change of work for him in the factory, as a footman for his own division's offical.

Sin a bhfaighimse uaidh.

Obviously we don't say "this's" in English, but without knowing to what it refers, ie. without context, that's the best I can do.

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Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ouch, Shoe Dude:-) Translate the meanings, not the words!

"His wealth was not reduced by the fact that he'd gotten a big increase in salary since he'd first come over, and a change in his work at the plant -- he was now the executive assistant for his division."

(I'm not completely sure about "ghíománach d'fheidhmeannach", but "executive assistant" is close.)

--Al Evans

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.59 - 159.134.109.59)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post


Quote:

His wealth


"a stór seo" means "this's stock". For example, on the inside cover of my passport:

Iarrann Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha na hÉireann ar gach n-aon lena mbaineann ligean dá shealbhóir seo, saoránach d'Éirinn, gabháil ar aghaidh gan bhac gan chosc agus gach cúnamh agus caomhnú is gá a thabhairt don sealbhóir.

dá shealbhóir seo = [do + a] shealbhóir seo

a shealbhóir seo = the holder of this = this's holder

As such, I don't see where you're getting "his wealth" from. Furthermore, I don't see where you even get "wealth" from. As for the rest of your translation, it's what I'd term "loose".

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Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Níor lúide a stór seo == this his treasure was not made less == His wealth was not reduced

mar bhí an-ardu dó == as there was a large increase in salary to him == by the fact that he'd gotten a large increase in salary

anois thar is a chéad am ar tháinig sé anall == now over the time when he first came over == since he'd first come over


agus ina cheann sin bhí malairt oibre aige sa monarcha == and along with this there was a change in his work in the factory == and a change in his work at the plant

mar ghíománach d'fheidhmeannach a roinne féin == as "executive assistant" of his own division == he was now the executive assistant of his division.

There is nothing "loose" about it; it's just rendered into good English.

I have about seven years as a professional translator (French, Russian, and Italian).

How about you?

--Al Evans

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.59 - 159.134.109.59)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post


Quote:

I have about seven years as a professional translator (French, Russian, and Italian).


Ofcourse, that makes perfect sense: French, Russian and Italian are all dialects of Gaeilge.

Quote:

Níor lúide a stór seo == this his treasure was not made less == His wealth was not reduced


é ... it / him
é seo ... this

a stór ... its stock / his stock
a stór seo ... the stock of this / this's stock

Where the hell are you getting "was not made less" from!? If the author of the original sentence wanted to express that, then they would have expressed that. But alas, they didn't express that, you did. There's no action being performed in that sentence, it's simply stating the status of "this's stock". If you suggest more in a translation, then it's an illformed translation.

Quote:

mar bhí an-ardú dó == as there was a large increase in salary to him == by the fact that he'd gotten a large increase in salary


There's no mention of salary; to translate it as such would be an illformed translation. Your third translation is purely fabricated and bares little resemblance to the original.

Quote:

anois thar is a chéad am ar tháinig sé anall == now over the time when he first came over == since he'd first come over


This is accurate.

Quote:

agus ina cheann sin bhí malairt oibre aige sa monarcha == and along with this there was a change in his work in the factory == and a change in his work at the plant


"along with this" is fabricated. There's no mention of "his" work - it's the indefinite article, "a change of work".

Quote:

mar ghíománach d'fheidhmeannach a roinne féin == as "executive assistant" of his own division == he was now the executive assistant of his division


Firstly, this isn't the definitely article.

gíománach d'fheidhmeannach = gíománach do fheidhmeannach
a footman to an official =maybe= an official's assistant
roinn = division
a roinne féin = of his own division

--

Níor lúide a stór seo, mar bhí an-ardu dó anois thar is a chéad am ar tháinig sé anall, agus ina cheann sin bhí malairt oibre aige sa monarcha, mar ghíománach d'fheidhmeannach a roinne féin.

I can't translate that because there's a chunk missing from the start of it. The definition of "this" is missing.

The following would be translatable to English:

Is madra é seo. Níor lúide a stór seo, mar bhí an-ardu dó anois thar is a chéad am ar tháinig sé anall, agus ina cheann sin bhí malairt oibre aige sa monarcha, mar ghíománach d'fheidhmeannach a roinne féin.

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Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Where the hell are you getting "was not made less" from!?

"Níor lúide" -- to use an example from the (Pocket Oxford) dictionary nearest to hand,
"Ní lúide sin a meas air" -- That didn't decrease her respect for him.

There's no mention of salary....

Please -- the FIRST definition of ardaigh in the above (small!) dictionary is "raise". A raise is an increase in salary.

"along with this" is fabricated...

"ina cheann sin" means "along with this"

There's no mention of "his" work...

"...bhí malairt oibre aige ..." To whom do you think the "aige" refers?

I think you'd do well to get a good dictionary, and as others have suggested, do some real reading in Irish.

--Al Evans

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.240.52 - 213.94.240.52)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 03:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I like to swim in the morning.

Okay, from that we can say that "morning" means the time between sunrise and 6 or so hours afterwards.

The family were morning the death of their son.

- Similarly:

Ní lúide sin a meas air

could possibly be translated as "decrease", but that's simply because that particular sentence implies such. Outside of that, "lúide" gives no such implication - it's a preposition, just like:

Níor thug sé an leabhar dó sin.
Ní dó sin ar thug sé an leabhar.

-

"A raise is an increase in salary".

A raise is a raise is a raise.
In this context, however, it alludes to an increase in salary.

Bhí malairt oibre aige = He had a change of work
Malraíodh a obair = His work was changed
Bhí malairt lena obair = There was a change in his work

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An albannacht (80.58.36.235 - 80.58.36.235)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 04:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

All this '' my diction is bigger than your diction' ' stuff is exactly the kind of thing that ensures boards lose people and make others less likely to contribute for fear of being ridiculed , that is the opposite of what a learning environment should be, so please cut out the confrontational stuff , thanks

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An Díobhlásach (160.136.109.4 - 160.136.109.4)
Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Morning is actually one nano, micro, split second past midnight and lasts until noon. It is a reference to time rather than position of the sun. As Gaeilge = Maidin. Dawn is "a little bit after sunrise" and corresponds to something called before morning nautical twilight and as such is more specific to solar positioning. As Gaeilge = Breacadh an Lae

Morning should not be confused with Mourning, which is to grieve.

I go through this exercise to illustrate two points.

1) To interpret is more than to translate words from one language to another. It is to convey the meaning of those words. While "Shoe Man" has rendered an adequate translations, I would venture that Al has rendered a more accurate interpretation.

2) If you're going to argue on this site, make sure your logic is sound. Using Morning when you mean Mourning is not sound logic.

Finally, An Albannacht is spot on in his assessment. I have recently returned to this site after a self imposed exile. Actually, I never really left, I just stopped contributing because of this kind of childishness.

Al Evans has been a long time and frequent contributor to this site and he has been instrumental in my education and continued enthusiasm for this language. He and Aonghus (and several others) have kept me involved on this site for quite some time. Slowly, bit by bit, they are helping me to learn without beating me over the head with rigid adherence to ambiguous matters.

Fear na mBróg seems to be quite adept in his Irish and certainly exceeds my conversational and grammatical capabilities. This, I am sure, is due in no small part to the fact that he has had the benefit of a life time of classroom instruction. However, I find that his dogmatic, "right or wrong" approach, which is typical of a male in his late teens to early twenties, can be counter productive to the learning process. It reminds me of the stories I've heard about the Nuns and their less than flexible approach to teaching Irish.

Perhaps, if the the Nuns had taught more like Al, Aonghus, Larry et. al. and less like Fear na mBróg Irish wouldn't be in the state it is in today.

Le meas,

An Díobhlásach

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.55 - 159.134.109.55)
Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Speculation

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Seán (168.9.250.3 - 168.9.250.3)
Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

All this '' my diction is bigger than your diction' ' stuff is exactly the kind of thing that ensures boards lose people and make others less likely to contribute for fear of being ridiculed , that is the opposite of what a learning environment should be, so please cut out the confrontational stuff , thanks

Amen to that. I stayed away from this site for a spell after my attempt to clarify my position on another matter was summarily silenced by the powers that be, only to come back to this undercurrent of hostility and "I-know-more-Irish-than-you-knowism."

Bye, y'all.

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Ed (24.185.210.123 - 24.185.210.123)
Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hey youse guys (my regional accent). I agree with you 300%. And while the boy-o has a very good educational background in Irish - lucky kid - he has absolutely no background in idiom or tradition. And his English can be a bit dicey.

Unfortunately he leaps in to answer questions and more than once has given inaccurate information to somebody. He needs some maturing I'm thinking.

But I do think he holds back any attempt to really converse - maybe not intentionally - but he does.

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Celtoid (149.174.164.23 - 149.174.164.23)
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 07:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"a stór seo" - this stash of his. No problem. It was "roinne" that gave me the problem. I suspected that it was the genitive of "roinn" (division), but my dictionary only has "roinnte", so I wanted to be sure.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.244.48 - 213.94.244.48)
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 08:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"this stash of his" = "an stór seo dá chuid"

As for Ed and "An Díobhlásach", it's difficult me to pay too much attention to your disrepectful comments; yous don't know me and yous never will, but continue if it makes you feel sufficiently superior.

PS An Díobhlásach, did they not teach you about stereotypes in school?

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An Díobhlásach (151.213.83.234 - 151.213.83.234)
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 03:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Do all dogs pee on car tires? No, but it is TYPICAL behavior.

Do all girls giggle at boys and become pre-occupied with makeup and clothes? No, but it is TYPICAL behavior.

Conclusions are drawn (right or wrong) and assumptions are made based upon TYPICAL behavior.

If the Shoe fits (rather ironic saying in this case) then wear it. If not, perhaps you may wish to re-assess the image you put forth.

I think your Irish is quite good and I've very much enjoyed many of your contributions. What I don't enjoy is the "I'm right, you're not" tone that creeps into your responses.

You have my respect vis a vis grammar and Irish. You'll have to go some to earn it as a teacher.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.242 - 159.134.103.242)
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An Díobhlásach, you're a down right fool. May whatever God you pray to bless any children you may have. If you tell a child that most black people are out of work in Ireland, and define it as TYPICAL behaviour, you're inciting racial hatred. If only in your day they had CSPE: Civic, Social and Policital Education.

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Gan Sloinne (66.152.218.225 - 66.152.218.225)
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mar a deirtear:

"Táthar ag iarraidh ort go mbeadh do chuid teachtaireachtaí múinte agus bainteach leis an nGaeilge.

We do request that you keep your postings polite and related to the Irish language."

Is mise,
Gan Sloinne

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.242 - 159.134.103.242)
Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá aiféala orm gur fhágas mo spéaclaí lí róis sa bhaile.

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Celtoid (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Can't we all just get along? Dála an scéal, a Fhear na mBróg.......Ó Dónaill: "....a gclann seo, these people's children", a stór seo - this man's stash.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.102.161 - 159.134.102.161)
Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 07:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

iad :: them
iad seo :: these

a gclann :: their family
a gclann seo :: these's family

"a stór seo" could very well mean "this man's stash", but that's only given that "é seo" is defined as "this man"; Your excerpt lacks a definition of "this", so it could be the third ring of Saturn for all we know.

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An Díobhlásach (151.213.112.178 - 151.213.112.178)
Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Being out of work is a condition, not a behavior. Refusing to work is a behavior.

If most Irish school children refuse to learn Irish, it's a typical behavior and can thus be the basis for a conclusion about a typical Irish child's enthusiasm for the language.

If most school children in Ireland have no Irish, that is a statement of a condition that pertains to Irish and the method of instruction.

This brings me back to # 2 above...

If you're going to argue, argue logically.

Now, back on subject:

I don't think I get the reference to "these's".

a gclann = their family

a gclann seo = these's family????

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the concept of these's vs their.

I would welcome any clarification.

Le meas,

An Díobhlásach

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.44 - 159.134.100.44)
Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 07:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

As I've already mentioned, in English we tend not to say "these's" or "this's", and I gave an example.

...ligean dá shealbhóir seo dul ar aghaidh...

...allow this's holder to go forward...

instead, we say:

...allow the holder of this passport to go forward...

That is, we don't reduce it to a pronoun. That's why "this's" and "these's" looks so odd to us. Even:

...allow the holder of this to go forward...

doesn't sound right, because we've reduced the noun to a pronoun, "this". We don't do that in English.

I'm not trying to explain anything here, but rather state "the way it is".

--

As for the other topic, we best leave it be.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.44 - 159.134.100.44)
Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 07:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

What is it?

It's the sword, and that's its blade.


Cad é?

Sé an claíomh, agus sin a lann.

-

What's this?

This is the sword, and that's its blade. <<--

Cad é seo?

Seo an claíomh, agus sin a lann seo.

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An Díobhlásach (151.213.83.18 - 151.213.83.18)
Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think I'm getting it. I need to work it around a bit.

Thanks,

An Díobhlásach

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Antóin (159.134.181.116 - 159.134.181.116)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Seo an claíomh, agus sin a lann seo."

That is not normal usage, perhaps you mean "a lann-sa"

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Sé Ó Sé (213.94.237.176 - 213.94.237.176)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Sé an claíomh . . ." ?
Quite misleading.
'Sé mo bharúil.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.85 - 213.94.242.85)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 02:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I really wish people would bother reading the rest of the thread.

If it's not normal usage then some-one should ring-up the Irish Goverment and get them to change the motto on the passport.

é :: it
é seo :: this
eisean :: it
eisean seo :: this (never seen this, don't think it's valid)

a lann :: its blade
a lann seo :: this's blade / the blade of this
a lannsan :: its blade
a lannsan seo :: this's blade(never seen this, don't think it's valid)

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Antóin (159.134.180.60 - 159.134.180.60)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Maybe what is on the passport is not normal usage but some obscure bureaucratic jargon. I don't think you can make universal rules from one sentence taken out of context.

Anyway

"and that's it's blade = agus sin a lann seo"

is not normal usage and looks all wrong to me. Perhaps it's used in some dialect but I can't remember ever coming across it.

Can you come up with any examples of this construction.

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An Díobhlásach (209.48.182.219 - 209.48.182.219)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Are you saying "this's" to mean and emphasis on this...as in this one's blade, not that one's blade?

Otherwise, I'm having trouble making the distinction between the blade of this and this's blade.

An Díobhlásach

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.102.173 - 159.134.102.173)
Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

the boy's name = the name of the boy
this's blade = the blade of this

é emphasized is eisean

I don't think you can emphasize é seo, and as such I don't believe you can emphasize this in Gaeilge, and that's most likely because it already is emphasized.

Antóin, I don't have any other examples of this but if anyone's interested, I'll give a full quote of the entire inside cover of my passport:

Quote:

Iarrann Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha na
hÉireann ar gach n-aon lena
mbaineann ligean dá shealbhóir seo,
saoránach d'Éirinn, gabháil ar aghaidh
gan bhac gan chosc agus gach cúnamh
agus caomhnú is gá a thabhairt don
sealbhóir.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs of
Ireland requests all whom it may
concern to allow the bearer, a citizen of
Ireland, to pass freely and without
hindrance and to afford the bearer all
necessary assistance and protection.




Checked for typos.

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Celtoid (205.188.116.207 - 205.188.116.207)
Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ceart go leor, a Fhear na mBróg.



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