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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through August 22, 2004 » Do last names change in Gaeilge? « Previous Next »

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Damian Horne (220.253.31.96 - 220.253.31.96)
Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 09:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just wondering if last names change in Gaielge?
For example would my last name "Horne" change if i was writing it in Gaeilge?

Go raibh maith agat

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.164 - 213.94.242.164)
Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The name would only change if the person's name obviously has come from Irish. For example, the English name "Thomas"; It started off as "Tomás" in Gaeilge, and up the North they pronounce a long "a" as a flat "a", and so we have the sound of "Tomas", and written english-ly, it became "Thomas".
So... people called Thomas tend to be referred to as "Tomás" in Gaeilge.

Gary -> Gearóid
Thomas -> Tomás
Robert -> Roibéard
Micheal -> Mícheál

Same with surnames. For example:

Thomas McAteer

Tomás Mac an tSaoir

--

"Damian" commonly becomes "Diarmuid", but not too sure about the validty of that. As for "Horne", I haven't got a clue.

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PAD (12.75.179.14 - 12.75.179.14)
Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

AN SLOINNTEOIR GAEILGE does not have Horne or Horn listed as an Irish name and therefore there is no Gaelic form given. To try to change it into Irish would be foolish as would be adding Mac or O' arbitrarily. It would simply be pronounced as it is. Perhaps McLysaght has an Irish version. As for Diarmuid, it is the Irish form of Jerry, Jerome, Jeremiah and usually anglicized as Dermot. It has no connection that I know of with Damian.

If your name is not Irish , why not leave it as it is?

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Betty OBrien (213.235.176.230 - 213.235.176.230)
Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 06:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

How would my name look in Irish?

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Dee (213.190.149.122 - 213.190.149.122)
Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 06:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

O Briain...o breen it would be pronounced

Brian being the Irish version of, well, Brian! ;)

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Celtoid (205.188.116.207 - 205.188.116.207)
Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 06:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The Irish version of an Irish name?

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OBrien (213.235.176.230 - 213.235.176.230)
Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

As you an see, it's an Irish name with the English spelling.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.254 - 159.134.100.254)
Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Although there is in Gaeilge actual grammatical rules for dealing with foreign names... *gets grammar book*:

Tomás Page

teach Thomáis Page

So, for you:

Is mise Damian Horne.
Is é sin teach Dhamian Horne.

or maybe:

Teach Dhaméin Horne.

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Damian Horne (203.62.171.1 - 203.62.171.1)
Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Cheers, so do u think i which one of the three do u think i should use "Dhamian, Dhaméin or Diarmuid?"

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Damian Horne (203.62.171.1 - 203.62.171.1)
Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

sorry for the typo

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.243.224 - 213.94.243.224)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 06:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Damian"
Is mise Damian
Rinne Damian an cáca

That't the normal case, the nominative case, an tuiseal ainmneach

I suggested "Daméin" for the posessive case, as nouns in Gaeilge which have an "ia" sound become "é", as in "iasc éisc" "fiach féich". But some may think I taking the Gaeilge-ization a bit far there. So maybe consider the following:

Is mise Damian Horne.
Is é sin teach Dhaméin Horne.

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Ed (24.185.210.123 - 24.185.210.123)
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Beití Ní Bhríain if it is your maiden name


Beití Uí Bhríain if it is your married name.

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Brigid_CloverMoon (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 165.121.85.24
Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 11:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

What would mine be? Angela Purcell (maiden name)

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Purcell being a Norman Name, doesn't follow the rules above usually.

So you would be Angela Puirséil

See here

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Natalie
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Username: Natalie

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't want to ask a stupid question or anything but how come Purcell doesn't follow the same rules as above but it gets changed? (Purcell - Puirséil). Do you mean that it just doesn't have an O or Mac in front of it? Is that just because it's a Norman name? My mother's maiden name is Hackett which is Irish (or so I am told). I don't mean to be annoying but since everyone is asking, how would that change into Irish?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hackett is an english version of the name Ó Tuathail (O'Toole).

Tua = axe, which is where the translation came from.

So you would be Natalie Ní Thuathail.

Purcell was a Norman French name, Puirséil is the Irish transliteration. Such names do not use Ó/Mac or Ní/Nic.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 382
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus is by far my superior on names, so I assume he's right. Another opinion about Hackett is found on the website Irish Abroad:

The name Hackett in Ireland is of Norman origin having been introduced into the country in the twelfth century. These Settler families created Septs along native Gaelic lines and became completely integrated into Gaelic society, adopting the name Haiceid in Counties Kilkenny and Kildare.

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 07:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Nathalie
A lot of names we know of as Irish are not really but rather Norman! Names like Burke,Fitzgerald,Hayes,Stafford,Keating...Ireland absorbed many Anglo-Normans in the 11th and 12th centry..would it be fair to say the biggest immigration into Ireland after the Celts?? or better put most significant?

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 384
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'd assume that the Viking immigration was bigger but the Norman more influential.

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 385
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 07:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

That is opposed to both Scotland and the Isle of Man, where the Viking immigration was the most important by far.

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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 09:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

No Jonas I think the Norman invasion was much bigger-the influence of the Viking on Ireland was minimal I think apart from a few place names and the odd word in Irish

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 387
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, I cannot agree. Fouding cities like Dublin and Limerick is hardly minimal, nor is ruling Ireland for over 100 years. Those "few" place names probably exceed 1000 names

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 10:11 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Actually, there are only about 50 names of Norse origin still in use. And ruling Ireland for over 100 years is something of an exaggeration. There was no "Ireland" to rule over. At the time, Ireland was a series of small and tiny kingdoms (tuathanna) allied with each other in a shifting pattern. The Norse founded towns like Dublin and Limerick, and maintained control there pretty much until the Normans came. In general Norse areas mixed into the blend of client politics which was the way the country was run - sometimes Norse and one Irish king allied against another, sometimes the Irish ganged up on the Norse.

Prominent Norse placenames
Wexford
Wicklow
Arklow
Helvick (the only name for which I know no Irish equivalent, it's in a Gaeltacht area in Waterford, and the locals call it Heilbhic).
....

We got many words to deal with coinage and markets from the Norse too; pingin, margadh, ....

And of course, we lost many manuscripts.....

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 389
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

50! Then all and every one of them must be in those small parts of Ireland I've been to. In Corca Dhuibhne there's the Blasket / An Blascaod as well as Smerwick. May I ask on what you base the number of 50? It sounds incredibly low.

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Natalie
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Username: Natalie

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agaibh for the name translation. I wanted to tell my mother what the name was for a very long time but couldn't find it on the internet. I knew that there were alot of other names that would've been Norman or Viking or other descent but I just figured that being considered Irish now-a-days, meant they would've come to have an Irish translation as well. Thank you for clearing things up.

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PAD (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 12.75.181.19
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An Sloinnteoir Gaeilge also gives Mac Eachaidh for Hackett and says the other version is used in the south of Ireland.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 33
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 04:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas
My authority for 50 names is "Irish Placenames" by Laurence & Deirdre Flanagan.

There are several versions of Hackett - the one I give is associated with Wicklow (another Viking name ;-))

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 392
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Quite convincing Aonghus, you're most probably right. I was thinking that with 4 out of 32 counties having Viking names (Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford & Limerick) there would be a lot of common placenames. Especially as I've looked out at two, the Blasket and Smerwick, daily for quite some time. But obviously they are quite limited.

Still, I continue to claim that one cannot say that the Viking influence was minimal. Founding Dublin, Limerick, Cork and Waterford - 4 of Ireland's main cities - is hardly a minimal influence.

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Natalie
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Username: Natalie

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 01:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you for the very many versions of Hackett! Now all I have to do is decide what one to use! :)

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Brigid_CloverMoon (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 207.69.137.204
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Purcell being a Norman Name, doesn't follow the rules above usually. So you would be Angela Puirséil" Damn I wanted a Nic or something neat. Oh well.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 34
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 04:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Natalie, you should try to find out where your Hackett ancestry is from, and then pick the Hackett which matches.

Jonas,
I would not claim that Viking influnece was minimal; It was the "ruled for 100 years" and "1000 placenames" I thought was inaccurate.

Obviously, the interaction with Vikings was important - look at surnames like Mac Dubhghaill or Mac Fhionnghaile - son of the dark haired or fair haired foreigner. Apparently the Irish distinguished between two types of Viking according to hair colour. My recollection is that the dark haired are the Danes, the fair Norwegian or Swedish.

And then there are place names which are Irish, but influenced by the Vikings - Fine Gall in North County Dublin for example.

The Gaels didn't do towns, so most cities in Ireland are either Norse, Norman or English foundations.

By the way, is my impression correct that, apart from the Hotel, people in Corca Dhuibhne only use the Placename "Ard na Caithne" for Smerwick? Presumably, while we're on the subject, the Gall in Baile na nGall were the Norse?

And what is the dinnseanchas for blascaod?

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 396
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 05:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It was Diarmo who would wrote that the Viking influence was minimal, and that prompted my reply.

You're quite right, Ard na Caithne is used for Smerwick. I've always wondered how this name came to be the English name. I guess you know that it means "Butter Bay", Smörvik in modern Swedish. And yes, the Gall in Baile na nGall are the Vikings.

As for An Blascaod I cannot remember the dinnseanchas. The oldest version I've seen is Brasker.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 37
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The Normans preferred to use the Norse name rather than the Irish. (After all, they were only a few generations away from being Norse themselves)

So you have:





ArklowInbhear Mór
WicklowCill Mhantáin
WexfordLoch Garman (or gCarman)
WaterfordPort Láirge

etc.

The only one I know of that made it into Irish usage is Heilbhic. And Leixlip was translated back to Léim an Bhradáin; but I don't know when that usage started.




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Diarmo
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Username: Diarmo

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Being a Wexford man (no reference to yesterday please!) I am not loathe to deny the Vikings influence on Ireland...some examples in County Wexford of the Vikings influence are Selskar abbey (like the M Utd footballer!!no?); the Saltees;Doyle being a common surname;and a few other names around the town...the name Limerick is from Gaelic by the way...

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OCG (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 82.69.43.131
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The Gaels did have some urban settlements, around monasteries like Clonamacnoise and in Ard Mhacha, but these were rare.

One major thing the Vikings introduced, apart from trading settlements, was currency. Coins began to be used widely throughout Gaelic Ireland but their usage passed away later, after the Norman invasions.



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