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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through July 15, 2004 » Confused by this pronunciation « Previous Next »

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confused O really (80.58.36.235 - 80.58.36.235)
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am listening to a recording in a lesson and they are saying 'Ba mhaith liom dul go dtí....'
however they seem to be pronouncing it Ba wye lom Gul do Jee.
Why are they pronouncing Dul as Gul???
This has thrown me a bit as I thought i was getting my head around most pronunciation rules.
I know that when D takes the H in lention it can have a G quality , but surely D on its own , wethere followed by broad or slender vowel is D ??????????'

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Seán (65.45.165.80 - 65.45.165.80)
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2004 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sounds like Ulster dialect from the long "I" (wye) sound given "mhaith." I hear Gul for Dul a lot on BBC Northern Ireland which is loaded with Ulster.

Seán

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Robin (66.87.137.230 - 66.87.137.230)
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 12:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm using Irish On Your Own, and dul is definitely pronunounced 'gull' -- however, what I hear for 'dul go dti' is closer to "gul g'jee"

This is just a dialectal difference, right? It's not that there's some rule tht makes it 'gul' instead of 'dul'?

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 04:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I think it developed because in the ulster dialect the phrase is often "a dhul" - in speech the "a" gets swallowed, and you are left with "dhul", which has a "gull" sound.

(Totally non scientific opinion!)

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.243.134 - 213.94.243.134)
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 07:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It's like "massage". Some people pronounce that g as a j. There's no actual letter in English or Gaeilge to represent the actual sound, but it's the same one as in:

vision
Asia

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Confused O`Really (80.58.36.235 - 80.58.36.235)
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post

thanks for that, but just to be clear is it just in the case of this particular verb or are they constant in there pronunciation of D as G ?

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DaithiSeosamh (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't know if this helps, but in Ó Siadhail (chapter 14) there is the word goil, which means going. I've seen and heard this word goil used instead of dul, and was told that they're interchangeable, but I think that maybe "goil" is for the Connemara dialect. I'm just a beginner so I don't know but would also like to learn more.

Daithi

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It is correct that "goil" is Conamara dialect (Ó Siadhail focusses on Cois Fhairrge) - also, you probably won't find it in a dictionary, as I don't think it's ever written.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.241.172 - 213.94.241.172)
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post


Quote:

is it just in the case of this particular verb or are they constant in there pronunciation of D as G ?


Just this ONE. Everywhere else, a D is a D, and a G is a G. But then ofcourse you also have silent D's and G's:

aghaidh
Tadhg
staighre
fadhb

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Tomás (198.22.236.230 - 198.22.236.230)
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In Conamara Irish and, to a lesser degree, in Ulster Irish, there is a tendency to aspirate the pronunciation of certain words beginning with 'd' even if such aspiration may not be required grammatically. Mar shampla, the prepositional pronouns for 'do'.

'Dom' is pronounced as if it were 'dhom',
'duit' is pronounced as if it were 'dhuit', srl.

In Conamara Irish, 'dul' is invariably pronounced as if it were 'dhul', and, as Aonghus points out, you will even see the verbal noun for 'téigh' written as 'goil'.
In the instance you cited, as Aonghus also pointed out, "Ba mhaith liom a dhul..." also is perfectly correct and often tapes and text don't match up perfectly in some learning series.

Tomás

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Daithi (152.163.252.199 - 152.163.252.199)
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus and Tomas. In your responses to my observation of goil being used for téigh, one of you (Aonghus) says that goil is never written, the other (Tomás) says that it is written.

I'm confused. Is it indeed written, but just never made it's way into dictionaries? Is it possible that the dictionaries don't contain important dilectical facts like goil?

I've decided to focus on the Connemara dialect, which I know doesn't make everyone happy, but I would appreciate any insight into the written use (if any) of this word. For example, has it ever been written in other books besides dictionaries?

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Daithi

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Robin (66.87.137.230 - 66.87.137.230)
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I've been reading the posts that show up in response to 'pronunciation' in the search results and have a question -- obviously, many people are working from Learning Irish, some TYI, etc. I know that I'm having problems with figuring out pronunciations (I've done enough of Irish on your Own to be comfortable with Ulster pronunciation of things and the tapes from Learning Irish are throwing me badly out of whack).

So -- has anyone here (and I know we have speakers of a wide range of dialects) made recordings of "alternate" pronunciations of the vocabulary and texts? What I mean is, I'd be willing to buy a steak dinner for someone else to read the vocab and texts in Learning Irish into MP3 -- or more than one person, to get a feel for the way Irish is pronounced by others.

I know, I know -- I should stick to the tapes that go with Learning Irish, but I'm really finding it more confusing. I've been listening to RTE, and the exmaples here on the Daltai site...the short quotes are nice, but having more recordings of people speaking irish would be nice.

I've got oodles of bandwidth, I'd host it if someone has done it (or is willing to do it). Am I nuts?

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (212.209.194.26 - 212.209.194.26)
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

excellent idea robin...especially since you can back it up with the bandwidth :)

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Daithí - I have never seen "goil" written. It may be that in the Ó Siadhail book it is written, and it may be that authors like Ó Cadhain who wrote in dialect wrote it.

However, I've never seen in a newspaper or magazine, and can't recall seeing it in any book I've read.

Robin - have you tried listening to Radio na Gaeltachta? http://www.rnag.ie

They have regional programs which will expose you to all major and minor dialects - although you might need a map to work out where they're coming from.

Bóthar na Leinsí/Baile na nGall is the Corca Dhuibhne studio (Kerry, Munster)
Peadar Ó Riada from Cúil Aodha in Cork, Munster also has a series of programs.

There are also programs from an Rinn in Waterford, which has a distinctive form of the Munster dialect.

Na Doirí Beaga is in Donegal (Ulster)

Casla is in Conamara - look out especially for programs presented by Seosamh Ó Cuaig.

Rath Cairn is in Meath, but the majority of the population was origianlly from Conamara, and so speak the Connacht dialect.

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Robin (66.87.137.230 - 66.87.137.230)
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I have been listening to Radio na Gaeltachta -- although I'm only picking up about a quarter of the words so far -- things don't make much sense yet. Thanks for the tips on which shows are in what dialect...you're right, I may need a map!

As I mentioned before, if anyone wants to do a 'vocab pronunciation' mp3 from learning irish, I'll pop it up on my site. I think it would be very useful to be able to read the text/words and hear multiple pronunciations. Can you tell I'm having a problem finding a real, live Irish speaker to talk to? YOu'd think in Denver that there would be a few, eh?

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Tomás (198.22.236.230 - 198.22.236.230)
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus is write in that 'goil' is not used unless the author is quite pointedly writing in the Conamara dialect. I can't remember if O'Siadhail used it or not in "Learning Irish." Also, in Conamara Irish 'gabh' is often used instead of 'téigh'. The verbal nominative of 'gabh' is 'gabháil'. Said quickly, it sounds a lot like 'dhul' or 'goil'.

Tomás

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Daithi (149.174.164.23 - 149.174.164.23)
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tomás,

I'm a bit confused When you say "unless the author is quite pointedly writing in the Conamara dialect." Does your remark indicate a personal preference you have for one of the other two main dialects?

Couldn't somebody whose preference is the Conamara dialect say similarly about some word or phrase that is used in only one of the other dialects that that word or phrase is never written (or spoken) unless your writing (or speaking) in that dialect?

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 04:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

What Tomás is saying (I think) is that the word is pronounced "goil" in Conamara, but will not be written that way except in direct speech where the author is writing things the way the speaker would pronounce them.

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Tomás (198.22.236.230 - 198.22.236.230)
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 10:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Daithí, -- Exactly what Aonghus said above. Most of the time, most writers writing in Irish, regardless of their native or preferred dialect, use the standardized spellings and grammar. But often enough, in poetry and fiction, or in some very dialect-specific language instruction books like Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish" or the old Dillon/Ó Cróinín editions of "Teach Yourself Irish", the author will use vocabulary, grammar and spelling typical of a regional dialect. Just look at the poems of Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill or Cathal Ó Searcaigh, they are very much written in the dialects of their native places, Corca Dhuibhne and Dún na nGall.



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