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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through July 15, 2004 » Another arr bith/ar chor ar bith question (Ó Siadhail, Chp 4) « Previous Next »

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Robinf (66.87.137.230 - 66.87.137.230)
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 11:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I couldn't find this one in the archives, so here it is:

Lesson 4, translation #6:
"There is no college at all" is in the keys as: Níl coláiste ar bith anseo ar chor ar bith.

My first attempt was: Níl coláiste ar bith ann. Hmm. Not quite.

First off, I understood ar bith as "at all", as in "there aren't any here" vs ar chor ar bith as "there aren't any at all (anywhere)". I was just thrown off by using both in the sentence -- is this just for emphasis? Or have I misunderstood the lesson?

I also thought I understood that 'ann' was used to mean 'there' when a specific place wasn't in the sentence -- in this case, 'here' or 'there' weren't specified? Thanks in advance!

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (212.209.194.26 - 212.209.194.26)
Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 03:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I understand it like this:

Níl coláiste ar bith = there is not at all any collage
anseo = here
ar chor ar bith = at all.

But I agree, I don't understand why "anseo" is used...and like you I would have answered Níl coláiste ar bith ann.

my *feeling* is that "ann" has an "exists" "is present" "in here/there" quality...tho that's just my feeling :)

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.123 - 159.134.109.123)
Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 06:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"There is no college at all"

I myself would've translated as "Níl aon choláiste ar bith ann".

"Níl coláiste ar bith anseo ar chor ar bith" is overkill. It translates as around about "There's no college at all here at all at all". Sounds like something a leprechaun would say.

As for it being "here" or "there", it doesn't specify. For example, in saying "There's no milk", you could be referring to the kitchen in which your standing right now, ie. "here", or you could mean across the road in the shop.

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RobinF (192.18.101.5 - 192.18.101.5)
Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Sounds like something a leprechaun would say"

Yup, but it does roll trippingly off the tongue.

Thanks for the tips -- it looks like my original instinct was right (or at least closer). I'm glad that I have you all here to confirm things for me!!

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Pádraig (4.154.94.103 - 4.154.94.103)
Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It translates as around about "There's no college at all here at all at all". Sounds like something a leprechaun would say.

Perhaps not a leprechaun -- as the grandson of Irish emigrants to America, I frequently heard the English phrase "at all, at all," whenever my grandfather wished to emphasize the fact that there was "none whatsoever." His pronunciation was more like A tall, a tall.

It would be interesting to learn just how that expression found its way into English. Seems like there are a lot of characteristically Irish English expressions that might be literal translations. Of rainy days, my grandmother used to say, It's a soft day. "Tá lá bog ann" (?)

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (212.209.194.26 - 212.209.194.26)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 03:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"a tall a tall" is also quite common from i'm from - Ard Mhacha.

another thing that is very common is the practise of always saying stuff like "isn't it" after every statement, e.g: "it's cold, isn't it?" You're tall, aren't you" "I'm doing it, amen't I!" "He's a git, isn't he?"

I suppect this comes straight from Irish, anyone know?

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Celtoid (205.188.116.136 - 205.188.116.136)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yeah, that threw me the first time I saw it, and it took me a while to figure out the difference between "ar bith" and "ar chor ar bith" (at least in this dialect). I think he forgot to put the "here" in the sentence. It should have said "There is no college here at all." "Ar bith" applies to "college". "Ar chor ar bith" applies to "here". --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The college is not here at all. Níl an coláiste anseo ar chor bith. There's no college here. Níl coláiste ar bith anseo.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.114 - 159.134.103.114)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 07:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Consider the difference between:

A) Is he a git?

B) Isn't he a git?

C) He's a git, isn't he?


A is just a plain run-of the mill question.

B is like "Do you think he's a git?".

C is like "I think he's a git, do you agree?"

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RobinF (192.18.101.5 - 192.18.101.5)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Cheltoid --

You said: "It should have said "There is no college here at all." "Ar bith" applies to "college". "Ar chor ar bith" applies to "here"."

Does this apply in most cases -- where 'ar chor ar bith' applies to the lack os something in the location/place and 'ar bith' modifies the noun, or is that just in this sentence, as a way to emphasize the "not-ness" of the college here?

From the discussion here, it's obvious that they are not really interchangeable, but I must be dense -- I'm still not really understanding the difference.

Then again, I assume that I'll be understandable whichever I use.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.102.216 - 159.134.102.216)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní fheicim teach = I don't see a house

Ní fheicim aon teach = I don't see any house

Ní fheicim teach ar bith = I don't see any house / I don't see a house at all / I don't see any house at all

Ní fheicim teach ar chor ar bith = I don't see a house at all at all.

"ar bith" can serve as an adjective or an adverb:

Adjective: Ba mhaith liom aon bhronntanas ar bith

Adverb: An bhfeiceann tú aon choláiste ar bith?

Note how with the adverb version it could be an adjective or an adverb. It doesn't matter which.

I must say you're getting real pedantic here!

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Robin (192.18.101.5 - 192.18.101.5)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I know -- I tend to get bogged down in bizarre technical issues that probably aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. I just feel better knowing :)

Thanks for your patience!

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Pádraig (4.154.0.121 - 4.154.0.121)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 08:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Robin, a chara,

Don't be after apologizin' for the curiosity that's on you. There's no harm in it a tall a tall.

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Ed (24.185.210.123 - 24.185.210.123)
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"at all" "at all" not "a tall" "a tall"

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.241.238 - 213.94.241.238)
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 06:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

REALLY ED??? REALLY? Next you're gonna tell me that "gonna" isn't a word.

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Celtoid (205.188.116.207 - 205.188.116.207)
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 07:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Robin, I think "I don't see a house at all at all." is a bit confusing. The first "at all" applies to "house". The second "at all" applies to "see". It's an adjective/adverb thing. Ní fheicim teach ar bith. I don't see any house. Ní fheicim go maith ar chor ar bith. I don't see well at all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Fear na mBróg, how is "ar bith" in "An bhfeiceann tú aon choláiste ar bith?" an adverb?

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.60 - 159.134.103.60)
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

An bhfeiceann tú aon choláiste ar bith?

In this sentence we have

[Verb] [Subject] [Object]

You have to decide if:

A) [Object] = aon choláiste

or

B) [Object] = aon choláiste ar bith


If you choose A, then the sentence is:

[Verb] [Subject] [Object] [Adverb]

[An bhfeiceann] [tú] [aon choláiste] [ar bith]


If you choose B, the sentence is:

[Verb] [Subject] [Object]

[An bhfeiceann] [tú] [aon choláiste ar bith]


Agus a Cheltoid, go easy on the hyphens.

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Celtoid (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 07:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní aontaím leat ar chor ar bith, a Fhear na mBróg. I think the "ar bith" in [An bhfeiceann] [tú] [aon choláiste] [ar bith] is an adjective. If you wanted to modify the verb, it'd be: "An bhfeiceann tú ar chor ar bith aon choláiste (ar bith)?", wouldn't it? I don't know how to list things yet, so get used to the hyphens.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.218 - 213.94.242.218)
Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 07:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well then Celtoid, you're stating that there's a definite word order in Gaeilge.

I ran to the shop quickly

is just as valid as:

I ran quickly to the shop

Just as:

Ní fheicim aon choláiste ar bith

is just as valid as:

Ní fheicim ar bith aon choláiste


In both examples, I'll more commonly use the first.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 08:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá "Ní fheicim ar bith aon choláiste" mícheart.

Agus níl gá leis an "aon" sa chéad abairt ach oiread.

bith [ainmfhocal firinscneach]
ar bith ((san abairt) aon, gan aon (má tá cuidiú ar bith agat; níl duine ar bith istigh)).

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Celtoid (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 07:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

No, Fear na mBróg, that's not what I'm stating. What I'm stating is that a) there's a difference between "ar bith" and "ar chor ar bith". b) "ar bith" is an adjective. c) "ar chor ar bith" is an adverb. I wouldn't use "Ní fheicim ar bith aon choláiste." either because "ar bith" is NOT an adverb! I don't know as much Gaeilge as you, but my dictionary says that "bith" means life, existence, "all that is". Therefore, "ar bith" literally means "on all" - any. "Ar chor ar bith" literally means "on any turn", which would apply to a verb or adjective. "Ní fheicim ar chor ar bith aon choláiste." I don't see a college "on any turn", that is, any time I look at it. "Níl an madra dearg ar chor ar bith." The dog isn't red "on any turn", any time I note it's color. I'm not sure about the word order for "ar chor ar bith". My book only gives it for a pronoun. "Ní fheicim ar chor ar bith anois iad." Maybe I was wrong in my example. It just looked better to have the adverb follow the verb instead of "Ní fheicim coláiste ar bith ar chor ar bith." Mar sin féin, I still definitely disagree with what you originally wrote, that "ar bith" can be an adjective OR an adverb in the example you gave.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.102.56 - 159.134.102.56)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

ar bith
ar chor ar bith

The ar in there isn't even a preposition:

Dún an doras.
Dúirt sé liom an doras a dhúnadh.

Dún an doras ar a lámh.
Dúirt sé liom an doras a dhúnadh ar a lámh.

Dún doras ar bith.
Dúirt sé liom doras ar bith a dhúnadh.

The above is an adjective.


Here's one for you, what's Gaeilge for "I didn't even do it!". A lot of people would say:

Ní dhearna mé ar bith é!

Looks like an adverb to me.


No disrespect to you, but this conversation is getting tedious for me. Neither of us are fluent speakers, so neither of our opinions are valid. I myself consider "ar bith" a valid adverb. You don't. For now we'll have to just agree to disagree until we get some clarification from a fluent speaker.

Le meas.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Ní dhearna mé ar bith é!" is wrong.

I didn't even do it!

Ní mise a rinne é, fiú.

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Pádraig (4.153.231.34 - 4.153.231.34)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I wonder whether Robin is still with us.

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Robin (66.87.137.230 - 66.87.137.230)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Still here! I've been following along, but I don't know anough to enter the discussion.

I contend that Ó Siadhail is wrong in the lesson, and that the speakers here have a much closer connection to "the language as she is spoke".

Thanks all -- more question to come, I'm sure! -- Robin

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Robin (66.87.137.230 - 66.87.137.230)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Which reminds me of another question -- TYI mentioned that 'anuas' is often used with le, as in

"Tá Liam pósta le bliain anuas." -- Liam has been married for a year. (literally something like Liam is married with a year down, or something like that?

Is that really different than 'Tá Liam pósta le bliain."? I know it means 'down', in some sense, but is this just for emphasis?

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 04:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

There is no deep difference.

It's a human language. There is usually more than one way of translating a given phrase. And literal transaltions can be very misleading!

"Le bliain anuas" suggests a continuum of time - he has been married for every minute of that year.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.73 - 159.134.100.73)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 07:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

There's 3 words for up:

thuas : adjective. Tá an ghrian thuas sa spéir!

suas : adverb. Chuaigh sé suas an staighre. (Going)

aníos : adverb. Tháinig sé aníos an staighre. (Coming)

There's 3 words for down:

thíos
síos
anuas

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 07:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

aníos actually means coming from "thíos"
anuas being "coming from thuas"

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Pádraig (4.153.223.18 - 4.153.223.18)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm gonna give this dead horse a couple more licks.

A while back Celtoid wrote that there's a difference between ar bith and ar chor ar bith, the former being an adjective and the latter an adverb. Well, I HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT because you've proffered the simplest and clearest explanation I've encountered to date especially if one holds to the policy of placing modifiers after the word(s) modified.

"Ni fheicim ar chor ar bith teach ar bith" works for me.

I do not at all see a house at all.

Now if we can just get everyone else to speak that way, as God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again. (a tall a tall)

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.236 - 213.94.242.236)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 06:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I see :

ar chor ar bith

as an emphasized form of:

ar bith


Just exactly as how I see:

a'tall a'tall

as an emhpasized form of:

a'tall

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 06:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Both "ar bith" and "ar chor ar bith" ar stock phrases which crop up in various contexts.

It can be used for emphasis as FnaB suggests, but that is not the whole story. And you cannot always replace "ar bith" by "ar chor ar bith" for emphasis.

Mar shampla:
Níl airgead ar bith agam - I have no money.
If you want to use "ar chor ar bith" here, you would say:

Níl airgead agam ar chor ar bith - I don't have money at all.

which has a slightly different meaning, and is certainly not emphasis.


Celtoids adverb/adjective definition can also be used, as far as I can see (I don't think in grammatical terms about what I say, and it's a long time since I was last at school). And looking at the example I gave above, is probably closer to the truth.

A Sheosaimh Mhic Mhuirí, cá bhfuilir nuair atá call leat?

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Celtoid (205.188.116.207 - 205.188.116.207)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 07:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

(((Mar shampla:
Níl airgead ar bith agam - I have no money.
If you want to use "ar chor ar bith" here, you would say:

Níl airgead agam ar chor ar bith - I don't have money at all.))))-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------In the first example, "ar bith" modifies "airgead" and is therefore an adjective. In the second example, "ar chor ar bith" modifies "agam" and is therefore an adverb. I didn't even do it. Ní dhearna mé féin é.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.236 - 213.94.242.236)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

There's two scenarios in which one would reply "I didn't even do it.":

A) An action has been performed. You are accused of it. You reply "I didn't even do it!", or, as Gaeilge, "Ní dhearna mise é!".

B) An action has not been performed. You are accused of actually performing the aforementioned action. You reply "But I didn't even do it", or, as Gaeilge, "Ní dhearna mé ar chor ar bith é.".


Quote:

I didn't even do it.

Ní dhearna mé féin é.




Nope! "féin" means "self". You use "self" when one is performing an action upon one's self. (<-See!):

I shot myself.
I killed myself.
I was talking to myself.
I was looking at myself in the mirror.

as opposed to:

I shot me.
I killed me.
I was talking to me.
I was looking at me in the mirror.

"Ní dhearna mé féin é" doesn't make sense. In English we also have another meaning for "self", which is "on one's own". For example:

I didn't do it myself.

This implies that you got help, that you weren't alone.

If the same applies to "féin" as Gaeilge, I don't know.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní dhearna mé féin é is correct.
It is emphasising that you, yourself did not do it.

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Pádraig (4.153.208.20 - 4.153.208.20)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

On this side of the pond in some locales there is a tendency to replace "me" with "myself." For example: "John sent presents to Mary and myself."
Although it has achieved common usage in some parts, technically it is incorrect because "myself" is a reflexive pronoun and should be used when the subject is acting upon the subject. "I bought myself a present."

Perhaps some Irish speakers have fallen into the same habit with the use of "féin." Not that it matters much in the long run since language is supposed to serve people and people weren't meant to serve the language. One way or another, we still understand the intent.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.242.236 - 213.94.242.236)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aontaím leis an mbeirt agaibh, a Aonghuis agus a Phádraig, ach is fearr liom:

Ní dhearna mise é

ná:

Ní dhearna mé féin é


Taitníonn liom an bhéim atá "in-built" sa Ghaeilge. Ní maith liom go n-úsáidtear "féin" ina hionad.

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Pádraig (4.153.219.9 - 4.153.219.9)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Fhear na mBróg. I guess one of the most welcome phrases anywhere is "aontaím leis," but it's especially nice coming from someone whose Gaeilge clearly surpasses my own by leaps and bounds. Also, thanks for the compliment of replying to my post as Gaeilge.

Beannachtaí,

Pádraig

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.240.8 - 213.94.240.8)
Posted on Thursday, July 01, 2004 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá céad míle fáilte romhat a Phádraig!

Chomh maith leis sin, anseo i mBleá Cliath cloisfear an leithéid:

Myself and the family are going to Spain in August.

Cén fáth a bhfuil "myself" in ionad "me"? Bhfuel, ceapaim go bhfuil sé níos fearr chun é a chur in iúl mar chuid d'aonad, m.sh. "myself and the family".

Ach, déarfainnse (nó déarfainn féin, nó déarfainnse féin):

Me and my family are going to Spain in August.

Agus ansin arís faoin tuath nuair a shiúlann duine éigin isteach i dteach tábhairne, déarfadh na seanfhir leis:

Ah sure it's himself, how a' ya Joey?

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 04:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ah anois, "My family and I" atá ceart de réir gramadach an Bhéarla. ;-)

Maidir le "mé féin" agus "mise", tá difear bheag san úsáid.

Ní dhearna mé féin é - tugann sé le fios go ndearna duine eile é.
Ní dhearna mise é - tá an bhéim ar fad ormsa; seans nach rinne duine ar bith ar rud atá i gceist.

Maidir le
"Ah sure it's himself, how a' ya Joey? "
Tá Béarla ag leanacht gnás na Gaeilge anseo:
"Muise, é (nó tú) féin atá ann, conas taoi a Joey?"

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.240.84 - 213.94.240.84)
Posted on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 05:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post


Quote:

"My family and I" atá ceart de réir ghramadach an Bhéarla.


Braitheann sé sin ar cé a bhfiafraíonn tú díobh! Tá 'fhios agam gur féidir rá go bhfuil sé níos "cirte", ach go fóill, is "Me and my family" a ndéarfainnse!

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 06:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá fhios agam. Ní rabhas ach ag magadh fút go headrom, de bharr go nglacann tú ort fhéin gramadach dhaoine eile a cheartú - agus go minic, nach mbíonn an ceart agat.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.240.84 - 213.94.240.84)
Posted on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 06:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cathain nach mbíonn mo cheartuithe gramadaí ceart?!

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Seán (4.153.208.170 - 4.153.208.170)
Posted on Friday, July 02, 2004 - 05:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Agus ansin bhi beirt.

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Fainic a Dó (213.94.232.234 - 213.94.232.234)
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 06:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mar is gnáth.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.240.119 - 213.94.240.119)
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 06:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ach ansin, thuig siad gur éalaigh duine díobh ón marfóir.

Triúr a bhí ann ansin.

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Gan ainm (67.101.198.207 - 67.101.198.207)
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tóg sos, le do thoil.

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Pádraig (4.154.122.90 - 4.154.122.90)
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dear Second Warning and No Name,

Aontaím libh, but perhaps a return to English will persuade the "silent majority" to become vocal again.

P.

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Siochain (12.75.179.26 - 12.75.179.26)
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2004 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Le do thoil. Ni maith liom rud ar bith faoin an abhar sin, a chor ar bith.

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Celtoid (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 08:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ó Dónaill: "féin - 3.(adv.)(a)Even, only.... Dá bhfaighainn féin é, Even if I got it. Níor bearradh féin é, he wasn't even shaved." I wasn't sure about the word order. Perhaps "Ní dhearna mé é féin." would be better.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

If what you intended was "I didn't even do it" ("even" referring to "it"), then I don't think you can use féin because "é" is not specific enough.

Dá (bhfaighinn féin) é
Níor (bearradh féin) é

I'd use fiú in a case like that
Ní dhearna mé é, fiú.



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