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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (April-June) » Referred here for some Old Irish Translation help....any takers? « Previous Next »

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Matthew (64.231.229.166 - 64.231.229.166)
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I am a new learner of Gaeilge as my brother and I are trying to learn more about our Irish heritage and family, we are both getting the same tatoo, it will be a Celtic Cross with Knotwork within and a incorporating the Claddagh. We wanted to know if anyone could give us a translation into "Old Irish" of this phrase:

"Brothers till Judgment"

I believe that bráthir is Old Irish for Brother
also
I believe that bráth is Old Irish for Judgment

But I only know a younger "gu bráth (forever)/ and gu brách (till judgment)"

Can anyone help me put this mess together??? Thanks ahead of time for any help anyone can give.

Matt

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

What do you mean by Old Irish?
Do you mean pre 17th century Irish?
Or pre 10th Century Irish?

Also, what do you mean by Judgement? Do you mean Judgement Day?

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Matthew (64.231.229.166 - 64.231.229.166)
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry I should have been more precise ... pre 10th Century if possible and yes Judgement in the Christian sense as in untill Judgement day or untill our Judgement.

Thanks so much for the response hopefully that will make it a bit easier to understand what i'm asking.

Thank you,

Matt

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Antóin (159.134.181.141 - 159.134.181.141)
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Pre-10th century Irish is very different to modern Irish. You'd need a scholar who specialises in that area to give you a translation. Most, if not all here just know contemporary Irish.

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James Murphy (194.165.167.153 - 194.165.167.153)
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm far from being a specialist in modern Irish never mind Old Irish but here's my attempt at it -

Bra/th(a)ir = brother pl. Bra/(i)thir
Co = modern Go
Bra/th = Judgement Day (pronounced 'brawth' in Old Irish and 'brawkh' in mod. Irish)

so: 'Bra/ithir co Bra/th'

This should be confirmed/corrected by someone who knows a lot more about Old Irish than me before you do anything!

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Matthew (64.231.229.166 - 64.231.229.166)
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks so much for the translation... just curious would it be able to be translated easier if it were pre 17 Century? rather then pre 10th...?

Sorry for all the questions but I find this extremely intriguing.

Matt

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Des (64.119.36.219 - 64.119.36.219)
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 01:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Young Gael,

Will you no longer be brothers following the judgment? Get some theological direction on this before you lock in anything as lasting as a tatoo. Just to keep things consistent with the theme of this forum, your might consult an Irish-speaking priest! Suggest you postpone the art about a decade; you may change your mind entirely about tattoos by that time.

Slan,
Dasmuan

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Matthew (64.231.229.166 - 64.231.229.166)
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks for the advice but I attended University for Religion and have a strong faith and the idea of being brothers in the flesh is untill judgement ... past that point our relationships change but our love endures... which is the other half of the tattoo ... but without getting into a theological debate, I was only hoping to find a translation for my brother and I's expression of loyalty. And in terms of speaking to a priest it was actually a Irish Priest on another Forum that helped me translate most of the words thus far. I do appreciate your opinion but I have reasons for wanting to express my love and faith and loyalty in the ways which I choose.

"Brothers till Judgement" is not from a book or a movie and represents "us" not you or anyone elses ideals or beliefs.

Thank you either way,

Matt

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.241.50 - 213.94.241.50)
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, first trap:

bráthair = brother : a religious brother, ie. Father Jack and Brother Jones went to lunch yesterday

deartháir = brother : a male sibling


In Gaeilge, I would translate "Judgement Day" as:

Lá an Bhreithiúnais


"Brothers until Judgement", I would translate as:

Deartháireacha go dtí Breithiúnas
Mar Dheartháireacha go Breithiúnas
Deartháireacha go Breithiúnas

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Matthew (64.231.229.166 - 64.231.229.166)
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 02:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks so much for the translation ...

Is this a modern translation? just curious? Again thank you so much for the help, oh and what is the major difference between the three ?

Thanks,

Matthew

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.241.50 - 213.94.241.50)
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

That's Irish as it is today, that's Gaeilge.


Deartháireacha go dtí Breithiúnas = Brothers until Judgement

Deartháireacha go Breithiúnas = Brother 'til Judgement

Mar Dheartháireacha = As brothers


You'll find that in Gaeilge, people are pretty fond of "as", ie. the word "mar". For example, "I will be king":

Beidh mé mar rí

Literally, "I will be as king". Learners of the language pick this up pretty quickly. If I had to spit out the aformentioned sentence on the fly, I'd say:

Mar Dheartháireacha go Breithiúnas

Only thing I'd say to you is that maybe there's a very unique word for "Judgement Day" in Gaeilge. Without such knowlege, I'd translate "Judgement Day" as "Lá an Bhreithiúnais".


Tá fáilte romhat.

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.241.50 - 213.94.241.50)
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Actually:


Mar Dheartháireacha go dtí an Breithiúnas


"Judgement" in Gaeilge would be "The Judgement".

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Des (64.119.36.219 - 64.119.36.219)
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Matt,

I wasn't expressing a belief, just a suggestion. I apologize for striking a nerve.

The design sounds great; hope it all turns out well.

Dasmuan

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Matthew (64.231.229.166 - 64.231.229.166)
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 01:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks for all the help on the translations...

Oh and Des no problem consider the nerve unstruck....

Mar Dhearthaireacha go dti an Breithiunas .. in Gaeilge

and from another forum some suggested for a Older version it would either be:

Old Irish: Bráithre go Brách, or a very authentic look in a Gaelic font, Bráitre go Brác with dots over the "t" and the "c."

Any thoughts on the Older version ... does it appear correct

Thanks for everything,

Matt

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Larry (81.154.34.217 - 81.154.34.217)
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Matt, a chara,

You can use "Lá an Bhreithiúnais", as per Fear na mBróg, or "Lá Bhreithe Dé". Both mean Judgement Day in the religious context.

Le meas,

Larry.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 04:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Bráithre go Brách is modern Irish; and the use of Bráthair for a sibling is, as fera na mBróg pointed out, odd.

Judgment as in Judgment day is in fact "Bráth", although this use has passed.

I suggest you submit this to the Old Irish List.

send an e-mail message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE with
"SUBSCRIBE OLD-IRISH-L your name" in the body of the message.

The language has changed significantly, as has any other language, in the last millenium. If your going to commit this to skin, it would be as well to get it right.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 08:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Larry
Lá Bhreithe Dé would be a serious heresy - It means God's Birthday!

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Larry (217.42.53.77 - 217.42.53.77)
Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis, a chara,

I welcome your comment and, as I'm sure you know, I'm not a native speaker, but "Lá Bhreithe Dé" is quoted in Ó Dónaill (my principle source) and De Bhaldraithe as Day of Judgement...

Le meas,

Larry.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.101.231 - 159.134.101.231)
Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ó "An Foclóir Beag", http://www.csis.ul.ie/scripts/focweb/Exe/focloir.exe


breith [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]

breith [verbal noun][feminine noun of the second declension]

tabhairt nó teacht ar an saol to give life to or to bring to life (rugadh leanbh di A child was born to her; lá breithe Day of Birth, Birthday) tabhairt mar thoradh give as a fruit, give as a result (ubh a bhreith to bare an egg); iompar chun siúil (beir leat é sin); greim a fháil ar to grab something, teacht suas le to reach, to come up to(beir greim air, ní bhéarfaidh sé anois orainn); buachan to win (rug sé an chraobh leis); dul (beir leat abhaile); druidim le to approach (ag breith suas ar a trí)


As you can see, "breith" is one expressive word!
There's also a seperate entry for it, as follows:

breith [ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
breith [feminine noun of the second declension]
breithiúnas (breith a thabhairt ar chúis; Lá na Breithe).
breithiúnas (give judgement on a case; Judgement Day).

---


As you can see, it gives "Judgement Day" as:

Lá na Breithe


---

If you feel you need to abbreviate that, then "The Judgement" would be "An Bhreith".

---

In general, I think of the word "breith" as meaning "bare". For your information, "breith" is the verbal noun of the irregular verb "beir":

Past: Rug sé
Present: Beireann sé
Future: Béarfaidh sé
Conditional: Bhéarfadh sé
Past Habitual: Bheireadh sé
Verbal Noun: Breith, eg. Bhí sé ag breith ar an bpeann = He was grabbing the pen

---

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Ed (24.185.210.123 - 24.185.210.123)
Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"sepArate" a Fhir!

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 04:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I recant! Umhlaím do Ó Donaill!

btw a Fhir no mBróg

Quote:

In general, I think of the word "breith" as meaning "bare". For your information, "breith" is the verbal noun of the irregular verb "beir":




Glacaim leis gur bear a bhí i gceist agat?

Ed - ná bí dána!

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.241.61 - 213.94.241.61)
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Táthar do m'ionsaí!!!!

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Bheul,...

Ní raibh mise pé scéal. Ach cheap mé go gcuirfidh bare ( = nocht) mearbhall ar dhaoine; ghlac mé leis gur "to bear" a bhí i gceist agat.

Maidir le Ed, ag spocadh asat seachas ag ionsaí atá sé. Agus tá tuairim agam go bhfuil sé tuillte agat ar slí!

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