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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (April-June) » Question on multiple genitives « Previous Next »

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Celtoid (205.188.116.136 - 205.188.116.136)
Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

How do you string genitives together? My books just give examples of two words like "teach an bhúistéara" (the butcher's house). Ó Siadhail says that two nouns in genitive relation act as a proper noun lenited by a preceding noun-"geata theach an bhúistéara" (the gate of the butcher's house). But what about when you have more than three? How would you write something like, "the end of the roof of the house of the president of the country" or "the nail of the finger of the hand of the arm of the man of the house of seven gables?" What rules apply? Are all the words in the genitive case? How is the article used?

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.26 - 159.134.100.26)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 03:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The boy's friend's dog

Madra Chara an Bhuachalla


Notice how there's "the" before "boy", and therefore "boy" is the definite article. Because "cara" is possessed by "boy", it too is the definite article. The definite article ones don't change at all, except for the very last one, along with their adjectives. But... the indefinite articles do change:

The school bag's friend

Cara an Mhála Scoile


Scoil -> Scoile


I presume you know the rules for the ones that change:

An chéim
Barr na céime

An bád
Barr an bháid


Well, for the definite articles that don't change, you just stick a séimhiú on them. Thus:

The Butcher
An Búistéir

The Small Butcher
An Búistéir Beag

The Small Butcher's Boat
Bád an Bhúistéara Bhig

The Small Butcher's Big Boat
Bád Mór an Bhúistéara Bhig

The Small Butcher's Big Boat's Sail
Seol Bhád Mhór an Bhúistéara Bhig


*I'm not 100% certain about the séímhiú an "Mór"


Remember that any indefinite ones do change. Let's say that this is a school boat:

Seol Bhád Scoile an Bhúistéara Bhig


You might think this is a bit complex right now, but I guarantee you'll pick it up real quick and really start to like it!


"the end of the roof of the house of the president of the country"

Bun Díon Teach Uachtarán na Tíre

This is actually a dire example!! I haven't put séimhithe on "Díon" nor "Teach" because I don't put séimhithe on Dentals after Dentals! Again, if you decide to do so, you'll pick it up over time, like how you never mistakenly say "a apple", it's "an apple".


"the nail of the finger of the hand of the arm of the man of the house of seven gables"

Ionga Mhéar Lámh Arm Fhear Theach na Seacht nGeata


I have a feeling that that "Arm" may refer to weapons, not sure.


I hope that's enough to keep you going for now!

Le meas

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.26 - 159.134.100.26)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Gabh mo leithscéal,

I assumed it was "of the seven gables".

Without the "the", it's:

Ionga Mhéar Lámh Arm Fhear an Tí Seacht nGeata


See how only the last definite noun is changed!

So here's pretty much the rules:

1. All indefinite nouns are changed regardless of anything:

Mála Scoile an Bhuachalla

2. The very very last definite noun is changed:

Mála Scoile an Bhuachalla

3. All other definite nouns don't change:

Dath Mhála Scoile an Bhuachalla

("Mála" is definite because "buachaill" is definite)

(I realize that "mála" isn't the best word to use hear, so I'll use "bád":

Bád Scoile an Bhuachalla
Dath Bhád Scoile an Bhuachalla

--


One more thing: If you find it a little hard to understand why a noun is made definite because it's possessed by a definite noun, then just think of this:

The My Bag
My The Bag

You don't say that, you simply say:

My Bag

Here, "bag" is the definite article because it is possessed by "me", and I'm definite!

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 04:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Geata is a gate, not a gable! Gable is Beann, genitive Binn.

the nail of the finger of the hand of the arm of the man of the house of seven gables

"Ionga méara láimhe sciatháin fhir tí na seacht mbeann" is what I'd say if I felt the need. Don't know the rules, and the above may be wrong.

Sciathán is an alternative to lámh (which means both hand and arm)

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.26 - 159.134.100.26)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Ionga méara láimhe sciatháin fhir tí na seacht mbeann"

Love to know what language that is


I haven't a clue what a gable is and I'm not in the habit of looking up every single odd word I hear.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Gable - the side of a house. (Binn tí - how have you escaped coming across that in all those wonderful short stories about country life. A vital place for courting couples! )

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.100.26 - 159.134.100.26)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

And mine has a side-entrance and all!

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Celtoid (64.12.116.136 - 64.12.116.136)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A gable is the point where the ridgeboard of a roof meets the wall.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

And I got it wrong:
gable = Binn, genitive Binn, plural Beanna, g pl beann - so at least "na seacht mbeann" was right.

ga·ble ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gbl)
n.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gable

a) The generally triangular section of wall at the end of a pitched roof, occupying the space between the two slopes of the roof.
b) The whole end wall of a building or wing having a pitched roof.

(b) is what I meant.

Back to stringing genitives - The only natural example I can think of is the way Gaeltacht people use the father and grandfathers name to name somebody e.g. Josie Séain Jeaic or Jimín Mháire Thaidhg

As far as I know, they just string the genitives.

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Celtoid (205.188.116.136 - 205.188.116.136)
Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Deacair go leor.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá muis:
sampla eile anseo

Comortás Choilín Shéain Dharach

http://www.damhsoir.ie/Assets/jigcontest.htm

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