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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (January-March) » Pronunciation Help « Previous Next »

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Jen (142.154.105.43 - 142.154.105.43)
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm looking through how things are supposed to be said, and like with hello "dia dhuit" it says it sounds like y in year when there is a "slender vowel" after it. What is a slender vowel, what is a broad vowel?

Thank you for the help.

Fionnabhair

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Natalie (142.166.235.109 - 142.166.235.109)
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

slender vowels: e, i
broad vowels: a, o, u

This is all I really know, somebody else can probably give you an actual explanation.

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T. MacEoghain (24.86.209.241 - 24.86.209.241)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 01:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

jen,

in irish, a consonant will have a different pronunciation depending on whether it is surrounded by slender vowels or broad vowels. so consonants have a 'slender' pronunciation and a 'broad' pronunciation. the slender and broad pronunciations of some consonants can be rather similar, but they can be quite different for other consonants....someone can probably direct you to a website where this is charted out for you.

"dh" does sound like a "y" when it is slender, but in the phrase "dia dhuit", the "dh" is followed by a "u", a broad vowel....so it will have the broad "dh" pronunciation, which is sort of like a "g" sound pronounced far back in the throat.

hope this gets you started on pronunciation.

ádh mór ort! (good luck!)

-t

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.10 - 159.134.103.10)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 02:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I only slenderize an s:

báis = bawsh

Ach... For every other consonant, I alter the vowel

an bád = on bawd

na báid = na boid (as in void)

an cat = on cot

na cait = na cwit

an corp = on curp

na coirp = na cwirp


Thus, I pronounce "airgead" the same as "airgid" and "ticéad" the same as "ticéid".

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.10 - 159.134.103.10)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 02:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Actually,

báis = more of a "boish" (as in "vOIce")

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James (209.48.182.219 - 209.48.182.219)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 09:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jen,

Broad vowels are found in "the broad OUt bAck", the rest are slender.

Broad vowels yield broad consonants and slender vowels yield slender consonants.

These are two memory aids that I try to keep in mind when dealing with this issue.

Le meas,

James

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Fear na mBróg (213.94.240.215 - 213.94.240.215)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jen, with due respect to James, don't pay any heed to that bullshit that slender vowels yield slender consonants:

siúl

suí

báis


What do you notice?, a "slender" consonant with a "broad" vowel. A "broad" consonant with a "slender" vowel. Now, I can here someone about to bring up the argument:

But there's an i before that ú and there's a u before that í. And yes, that's very good and looks very well on paper - but it's not pronounced.

Language is spoken. Written language is just a supplement.

For instance, the word páirc. It sounds like a masculine group 1 word, therefore it's masculine and in group 1, and should be spelt:

párc

But, the word is irregular, it's actually feminine. But according to the written language, which again is just a supplement, that's a "slender" vowel. Therefore we have:

An pháirc

Barr na páirce

Which doesn't look irregular at all on paper (after all, there is a "slender vowel") but in the real language, the spoken language, it is clearly irregular, because we all know that if the last vowel is broad, then it is masculine and thus we assume it works like this:

An párc

Barr an pháirc


So.....

Jen, don't let the written language become your doctrine, it has many shortcommings, faults and down-right errors (eg. plumber). Learn to work with words by their sound, rather than by their spelling and you'll be correct 99% of the time.

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T. MacE. (24.86.209.241 - 24.86.209.241)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

------"But there's an i before that ú and there's a u before that í. And yes, that's very good and looks very well on paper - but it's not pronounced"------

one of the unique characteristics of the irish orthography is that the pronunciation of written vowels is not always manifested in an actual vowel sound, but in the pronunciation of the adjacent consonant. i would argue that the vowels do have an audible realisation....within the consonant. furthermore, for most native speakers of the language, there certainly is a definite difference between the pronunciation of slender and broad consonants. people that learn the language in school often gloss over these differences, pronouncing broad and slender consonants the same, which to some ears results in a very bland sounding irish. to appreciate the richness of the irish sound system, i suggest learning broad/slender differences. and keep in mind: eventhough some vowels do have an audible vowel sound in the word, they still have an influence on the pronunciation of the word, specifically on the adjacent consonants.

i think we're going in circles; we can give this one a rest, no?

and jen, don't let all this debate intimidate you...we're just language enthusiasts with too much time on our hands; have fun with the language!

-t

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James (209.48.182.219 - 209.48.182.219)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jen,

With all due respect to the gentle person who insists on using a nom du plum rather than an identifiable and recognizable prenom....I'm a non-native speaker, like you. I'm a struggling self taught student, like you. In order to make any sense out of the grammar of Irish, I have had to develop some memory aids to assist me. They may not be realized in speech, but, none-the-less, they are seen in the written language. For the most part, my memory aids are based on guidance taken directly from established and accepted rules of Irish grammar...namely, Irish Grammar: A Basic Handbook, by Noel McGonagle.

I'm not a native speaker...I can't stress that enough. I'm just trying to help someone who is apparently encountering an issue that I myself encountered. Sometimes, students can do a better job of "teaching" than the native speakers becuase we see things from a common ground of frustration or confusion. For us, nothing "just is", nothing "just sounds right"...we have to struggle bit by bit, sylable by sylable, dipthong by dipthong until we get it right.

You can use my memory aid or not...if you do, I promise you'll be dead on most of the time. When you aren't, you'll still be understood.

Le meas,

James

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Fhear na mBróg, a dhuine chóir, glacaim leis gur duine óg tú agus níor mhaith liom go mbainfí den spleodar a bhraitheann tú sa Ghaeilge.

Ní miste dúinn a bheith cairéiseach nuair is ag cur duine eile ar an 'eolas' atáimid. Is furasta an t-áth romhat a bhraith ar thaithí an tseanátha, ach is annamh gur fearr a dhéanamh amhlaidh. Cuimhnigh gur sciorrán sciorrán agus gur caol an conson caol. (a glide is a glide and a palatalized consonant is a palatalized consonant) - Eisceacht is ea an chopail 'is', ach is caol cuid mhaith den am fós féin í: Is é/í/iad srl.

Is maith liom thú a bheith linn. Ní miste dúinn go léir an t-eolas a roinnt go réidh lena bhfuil ar ruathar foghlama isteach chugainn anseo.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jen a chara, don't let my all-Irish comment daunt you in any way. As long as you are asking the questions and going through the replies, you are learning. You shall eventually, just shortly down the line, be able to scan and take you what you need and leave what you shalln't need.

Good luck with it - go n-éirí foghlaim na Gaeilge leat.

Coinnigh an misneach.

Seosamh

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Holliday1977 (136.150.200.99 - 136.150.200.99)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi,I have what I hope will be an easy question to answer. Can somebody help me pronounce this in phonetic English?.....and help me break it down into the 2 stanzas?

"Os cionn tír na
gcróga is talamh na saor!"

(Oe'r the Land of the Free.......And the Home of the Brave

Thanks,
Richard

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T. MacE. (24.86.209.241 - 24.86.209.241)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

(ulster irish):

"oss kyunn cheer na
groaga iss taloo na seer"
(just read it as if it were english)

other dialects will be slightly different

-t

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.224 - 159.134.103.224)
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

There's a perfect example, see where T.Mac.E. wrote "cheer", I would've written "teir".

I strongly suggest to learners not to endoctrinate the written language, as out of my very own experience, it leads to allot of frustration. I used to follow all the rules when I was learning; for example, I would pronounce:

An tAirgead = On tarigud

Údar an Airgid = ... On arigidge

I put extra effort into getting a "broad" u sound out of "airgead", and getting a slender i sound out of "airgid", along with the j sound instead of d.

But it just doesn't work like that!

Airgead is pronounced the same as Airgid. Ticéad is pronounced the same as Ticéid. Rothar is pronounced the same as Rothair. Tobar is pronounced the same as Tobair.

And I've just learned to accept it, just as in English, I do bother putting in apostraphes:

It's gone.
Its tail is gone.

I don't leave out the apostraphes so I won't leave out the i, even though they're redundant.

Following all the rules quickly leads to a hatred of the written language, especially when you let yourself slip into thinking that the written language is the main thing, (which arises from not hearing the language spoken often and from a general belief that the language isn't really spoken that often at all! For instance, a learner of French would not experience this.)


So, Jen, right now, I suggest you get to learning the past tense and a few words and don't bother with these tedious matters for a few months.

He closed the door. = Dhún sé an doras.

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T. MacEoghain (24.86.209.241 - 24.86.209.241)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

----Airgead is pronounced the same as Airgid. Ticéad is pronounced the same as Ticéid. Rothar is pronounced the same as Rothair. Tobar is pronounced the same as Tobair.----

when making such a sweeping statement, it's important to let learners know that this applies to YOUR dialect, not to ALL dialects. the above statements are simply not true for my dialect, though for yours they do apply. it's important that learners know that these inconsistencies do exist and that they are attributable to dialect differences.

le meas,
T.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 03:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Some learners on the west side of the pond realize that from time to time they shall be visited by Irish participants on the board, who may seem to offer solutions. In the socio-linguistic field Daltaí may remember one very long thread. (search the word 'Unhappy')

I myself tend to gently nudge such people, generally very, very young Irish people, so as not to lose them from Irish, in the right direction. I don't admonish nor do I correct them. I try to engage them, gently, in Irish. If they don't take up on it, there is little I can do, other than to warn the unsuspecting learner who may be struggling already without having to deal with conflicting counsel to boot. This may seem unfair to the learner. It is and hence I write. Please be patient. These matters sort themselves out. In this thread you may go with Natalie, James and T. Mac Eoghain.

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T. MacEoghain (24.86.209.241 - 24.86.209.241)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 04:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

maith an fear thú, a sheosaimh.

-tadhg

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James (168.191.192.81 - 168.191.192.81)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 10:22 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ceart go leor. Maith an fear thú, mo chara.

And I might add, it is good to be back on the "west side of the pond!"

Le meas,

James

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.109.199 - 159.134.109.199)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's comes some East/West tension. What 'bout the Dirty South?

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 01:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní teannas atá romhat anseo a Fhear na mBróg, ach tá fáilte.

Ba mhian le roinnt againn thú a shocrú síos linn agus a bheith ag cur is ag cúiteamh faoi ghnóthaí an tsaoil agus faoi ghnóthaí na Gaeilge. Bímid ag dréim le saol socair só chomh maith leis an gcur is an cúiteamh ar ndóigh. Lena chois sin, ní thig linn leath an lae a chaitheamh ar shuíomhanna den chineál seo. Tá ár sciar d'obair an lae le cur dínn chomh maith le duine. Ina dhiaidh sin, beimid isteach is amach ó am go chéile. Tá fáilte romhat isteach.

Cén taobh tíre thú ar chuma ar bith? Is faoi Áth Cliath thú, más fíor leid a thugais le gairid. Más ea, is féidir gur i ngar d'Aonghus atáir.

Seosamh

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Natalie (142.166.247.214 - 142.166.247.214)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you Seosamh. I'm glad that I could actually answer a question instead of asking one for a change. :)

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Conchubhar (159.134.212.170 - 159.134.212.170)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Is léir gur tearc é an t-eolas atá ag a lán agaibh ar an nGaeilge agus is dána an mhaise daoibh 'bheith ag "múineadh " daoine eile.

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.38 - 159.134.103.38)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Is léir gur amadán thusa 's do thuismitheoirí. Nach ceart duit bheith sa leaba faoin am seo? Ná bí ag pleidhcíocht leis an ríomhaire, faigh bréagán eile éigin.

Do me a favour and shut your mouth. Ever heard of usenet? If you want to exercise your assertiveness and experiment with your self-esteem then you'd be far better off attempting to irritate people there.

You are a disgusting person.


Sincerely yours,

Fear na mBróg

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.103.38 - 159.134.103.38)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Sheosaimh,

Jóc ab ea é! :P

We need emoticons installed on the Forum, like at ezBoard, when you're writing your post, you just click on an emoticon to insert it.

How do the rest of yous get those emoticons?

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Natalie (207.179.161.249 - 207.179.161.249)
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

When I typed my message, I just inserted the little colon thing and the ")" ...I didn't know it was going to make an emoticon...let me try another one...

:( :) :P :S :'(

Apparently only some of those little combo things actually work...

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James (209.48.182.219 - 209.48.182.219)
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2004 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

No east/west tension at all. I've just been way over on the west side in a not so nice part of the world. It's just good to be back home.

This wasn't meant as a "European/US" matter but more of an "over there, back home" response.

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