mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (October-December) » Can you say...? « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Michael (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia dhaoibh mo chairde,

Conas tá libh?


Tá Bríd ainm na bean?
attempting to say is Bríd a name of a woman...or a women's name....

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.175.7 - 213.243.175.7)
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia is Muire dhuit!

Conas tánn tú

To ask how someone (more than one) is you say

Conas tá sibh? (I'd say Conas tánn sibh but that's my dialect)

To ask "Is Bríd a name of a woman / a woman's name?" you say:

An ainm mná í Bríd?
("mná" is the genitive of "bean", the only really irregular genitive I can come to think of, though there are some half-irregulars around as well...)

Slán go fóill,
Jonas

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ok ok ok lol so in your dialect you ALWAYS say Tánn as opposed to tá??


ok now

an is like the question of tá so its
Is a name woman in bríd? sorry can you break it down

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.178.136 - 213.243.178.136)
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 03:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, we don't ALWAYS say tánn instead of tá. We also say táim, táid, táir, taoi and thá. And then just tá. The Corca Dhuibhne dialect (=the dialect I'm speaking) has kept the classical forms alive while some other dialects have lost most of them. But you can't just exchange táim, tánn, tá etc.

táim = tá mé
tánn tú = tá tú = taoi (taoi is very rare)
tá sé = tá sé
tá sí = tá sí
táimíd = tá muid
tánn sibh = tá sibh
táid = tá siad = táid

Thá and tá can be exchanged for each other, though. Tá is by far the more common of the two.

To any speaker of Corca Dhuibhne Irish, saying "tá mé" or "tá muid" sounds about as right as saying "I is" or "we is". The difference is very much the same. In both cases the "correct" form are the classic ones while some dialect have simplified matters. Táim and táimíd are the forms of standard Irish just as "I am" and "we are" are the forms of standard English.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.178.136 - 213.243.178.136)
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 03:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

No, "an" is not the question form of "tá", it's the question form of "is". You can't use "tá" in the sentence "Brid is a name of a woman".

Is ainm mná í Bríd.

Then you just change "is" to the question form, "an".

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I hate to be difficult but that actually confused me more and by break down I mean whats í mean, and this and that mean, why is ainm here but not t-ainm? and the táim and tánn confused me

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike:

Is ainm mná í Bríd.
Is name of a woman it (Bríd).

Brid is a woman's name.

An ainm mná í Bríd?
Is name of a woman it (Brid)?

Is Bríd a woman's name?

Is Bríd an t-ainm atá ar an mbean sin.
Is Brid the name that is on the woman there.

Bríd is that woman's name.


Hope that helps.

--Al Evans

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike,

I'll try to elaborate some on Al's examples. This confused me to no end when I started tackling it. Actually, it still does at times!

Is ainm mná í Bríd.
Is name of a woman it (Bríd).

You use the word "Is" here because you are describing a condition. "Is" is referred to as the copula and it is a beast in and of itself.

An ainm mná í Bríd?
Is name of a woman it (Brid)?

Here, you are using "An" which is the interogative particle. The word "An" can be used in many ways leading to a significant tendency to confuse beginning (and not so beginning) students. In this instance it indicates that a question is being asked. You can't ask a question with "Tá" or "Is". You must use some interogative particle and in this case it's "an."

Is Bríd an t-ainm atá ar an mbean sin.
Is Brid the name that is on the woman there.

"Is" is used to describe the condition as we have already seen. In this sentence, "An" is not an interogative particle but it is the "definite article"...meaning "The". The "indefinite article" is the word "a" in english but Irish has no such critter. Think of it this way, "a woman" is any woman, non-specific. "The woman" is a very specific woman...it's that one, this one...a specific, identifiable woman. In Irish it's bean (a woman) or an bhean (THE woman).

So, now we're using "an" as the definite article and the rules change. In Irish the use of the definite article requires lenition when associated with a feminine noun beginning with a leniteable consonant and pre-fixing when associated with a word beginning with a vowel. This is what we have here with "an t-ainm". "The woman" would be "an bhean". This is the lenition associated with the definite article as we just discussed. It changes the pronunciation of the "b" to a "v" sound.

The other thing you see in this last sentence is the eclipsis in "ar an mbean". Yes, the definite article "an" is present but, it is part of a prepositional phrase "on the woman" and when we use prepositions the following noun to which they refer gets eclipsed. Each consonant has its own eclipsing consonant but for simplicity's sake, we'll just rest with "m" eclipsing "b" and changing the sound of the "b" to an "m" sound.

So, to recap: "An" can be an interogative particle or it can be the definite article. As the definite article it prefixes "t" to vowels and lenites those consonants which can be lenited. As part of a prepositional relationship it causes eclipses and each consonant has it's own eclipsing consonant.

Hope this helps more than it confuses. Hang in there. I promise you it will become almost instinctive.......eventually. The key is....eventually. If you already have a handle on this, I apologize for the simplified approach. Perhaps others can make use of it, however.

Le meas,

James

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (128.214.106.11 - 128.214.106.11)
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 07:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike, I'm sorry for having added to your confusion. Here is a full breakdown of the sentence "Bríd is a name of a woman" = "Is ainm mná í Bríd"

IS. The Irish IS corresponds to the English IS in this sentence. Irish differs from English in using two completely different verbs, IS and TÁ, both meaning is/are - they are NOT interchangable. To link two nouns you have to use IS, while you can use TÁ to talk about adjectives.
- He is big. = Tá sé mór
- He is here = Tá sé anseo
- He is a man = Is fear é.

AINM. You asked why this isn't AN T-AINM. This is simple, because it corresponds to English. You asked for "a name", not "the name". AN is the Irish form of THE, s0
- ainm = a name
- an t-ainm = the name

MNÁ. The word for woman is BEAN, but like so many other words it has a different form in the genitive, the case that expresses possesion. The whole construction OF A WOMAN is simply MNÁ in Irish. Of course, it also corresponds to WOMAN'S.

Í. This is definitely the hardest bit to explain. Why does it have to be there? No idea, but that's the rule. All languages have rules that may be hard to explain. I have no idea why English doesn't permit something like "I went not" instead of "I didn't go". It's the same thing here. I'd never say "I went not" nor would I leave out the Í above, but as to why these rules are around...? The thing that I can say is that you have to use í (feminine), é (masculine) or iad (plural) in all sentences of this kind.
- Is ainm mná í Bríd.
- Is fear é Seán. (Seán is a man)
- Is Éireannaigh iad Bríd agus Seán. (Bríd and Seán are Irish)

Then on to Táim, tánn etc.
It would be easier to explain this if you would have said what confused you. As you know, almost all European languages (excluding Finnish, Hungarian, Estonian and Basque) are related to each other. Irish, German, English, French, Russian, Croatian, Spanish, Welsh and all the others belong to the same family. As do languages like Persian, Kurdish, Hindi and many others. There are lots of similarities within this large language-family, one of these are that almost all languages have different verb-endings.

I'll take English as my example. Think about the verb "to eat". You'd say
- He eats.
- You eat.
In other words, the verb has been changed. Almost all European languages do this, they change the verb according to the person in question. (Swedish doesn't, but we're an exception)

I'll give the form for "to be" for some languages, please take a loot at them:

SWEDISH (A Germanic language)
Jag är
Du är
Han är
Hon är
Vi är
Ni är
De är
(Just 1 form of the verb, this is very rare in Europe)

ENGLISH (A Germanic language)
I am
You are
He is
She is
We are
You are
They are
(3 completely different forms, "am", "is" and "are".)

GERMAN (Germanic)
Ich bin
Du bist
Er ist
Sie ist
Wir sind
Ihr seid
Sie sind
(5 different forms)

FRENCH (Romance)
Je suis
Tu est
Il es
Elle es
Nous sommes
Vous etez
Ils sont
(6 different forms)

WELSH (Celtic)
Dw i
Wyt ti
Mae o
Mae hi
Dan ni
Dach chi
Maen nhw
(6 different forms)

In some languages you don't really have to use the words for "I", "you" and so on. Since there is one ending for each person the meaning is clear all the same. Some languages have alternative forms:

CROATIAN (Slavic)
Ja sam / jesam
Ti si / jesi
On je / je
Ona je / je
Mi smo / jesmo
Vi ste / jeste
Oni su / jesu
(6 different forms)

and now:

IRISH (Celtic) (Munster dialect)
Táim
Tánn tú
Tá sé
Tá sí
Táimíd
Tánn sibh
Táid

In other words, Irish behave like almost every other European language, including English. The pattern I gave above for Irish is the traditional pattern. Some dialects have simplified matters a bit, making Irish look like Swedish:

IRISH (dialectal)
Tá mé
Tá tú
Tá sé
Tá sí
Tá muid / sinn / muinn
Tá sibh
Tá siad

I'd like to stress that there is NO dialect in Irish that has skipped all the verbal endings for all verbs. I'd also like to point out that the pattern above with just one form is in no way Standard Irish.

I hope this makes it somewhat clearer, but please feel free to continue asking - that's the only way to learn!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 06:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks can you say "Tá linn anseo ár féin" As in like we are here by ourselves....OR MAYBE

tá linn anseo ár bhféin.


or something completely different?

Oh and I had a message before and didnt post it...think all I did was say thanks...LOL

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dion (24.6.179.219 - 24.6.179.219)
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

(fadaless)
A chairde
First of all, I have found this incredibly helpful. Go raibh maith agaibh.

There is one minor thing I would like to point out though. I noticed that you used the word Celtic to apply only to Irish, and Welsh. The Celtic race and area of influence include Ireland, Scotland, England, Whales, France, Germany, northern Italy, and Northern Greece; western Scandinavia, and ...akia. The arrival of the Romans from the south, and the saxxons, and Germanic tribes from the east, Angles, Vikings, Norse, Danes, Sweeds... did influence the languages resulting in each peculier and unique mix. You will notice that Irish and French have more in common that Irish, and German, though there still remains a similarity, and increase in difference with distance for obvious reasons. Perhaps a better term would be Gaelic? The Gaelic Celts settled in Ireland and Scotland, though this is basically the same thing. That is, the Irish who called themselves scot, settled in Albion, modern day Scotland, after kicking out the Picts, Danes, and English (again). They called the place scot-land and settled down to breed and fight, but then descided, with some help from the scots, who didn't feel that they were quite Irish, to go back to Eire...Eire-land...Ireland. If You are interested in Irish history, I strongly recommend "Are you Irish or Normal" by John O'Grady (Sean O'Grada). I don't mean to be annoying, but when it comes to Ireland, I want to keep things true.

Le meas
Dion

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradford (24.220.0.48 - 24.220.0.48)
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dion, a chara,

Interesting information, but I'd have to disagree with some of it. Mostly the part where you refer to Celtic as a "race". Celtic is a language group, like Germanic. It includes Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx, Welsh, Breton, and Cornish. There is no such thing as a Celtic race. When you refer to "Celts" you're talking about groups of people that spoke related languages, not some super-tribe.

Le meas,

Bradford

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Oliver Grennan (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, when we speak of the "Celts" we mean people who spoke a Celtic language, not a racial strain.

There were also Celtic speaking people in Turkey, the Galatians. St. Paul wrote them a letter once, it's included in the Bible.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:35 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I dont know if Daltaí would disapprove of my advertising something but I think it is worth it for anyone to look into. There is an Irish Heritage mailing list that sends out recipes, biographies, and IRISH LESSONS. If you are interested you can email a man at Steeler059@aol.com
I recomend it...its really great if your interested in some culture too..........

:-)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 04:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike wrote:
can you say "Tá linn anseo ár féin" As in like we are here by ourselves.

No.
We are here by ourselves would be
Tá muid anseo linn fhéin

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.191.191 - 213.243.191.191)
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 05:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Seems to be two different topics going on here. Bhuel, that's nothing new ;-)

1. Mike, as Aonghus said you can't say "Tá linn anseo ár féin", it doesn't mean anything. The alternative Aonghus gave is 100% correct, as is
"Táimíd anso linn féin".

2. I agree with those above who use Celtic to talk about those people who speak a Celtic language. If we use it in racial contexts we are soon into muddy waters, in many ways. It is true that most people in France probably have Celtic ancestors, yet there is no Celtic culture there at all (Breizh apart, of course). On the other hand, many people in Ireland are predominantly of pre-Celtic origin, especially in the West. The least "Celtic" places according to race are most probably found in those parts of Connacht where the Irish language and culture is at its strongest. So should we say that someone from Paris, say Jacques Chirac, is more Celtic than an Irish-speaking Conamara fisherman and Sean-Nós singer? I would find it absurd.

As for Celtic genes in Germany, Scandinavia etc. all the evidences are against the thought. Genetical maps make a clear distinction between these areas and those of France, Ireland etc. England, having been conquered by Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes and Normans is of course very mixed.

My point is that I see little use in talking of "Celtic" in contexts where its meaning can't be proved in any meaningful way. To me there are today six people I would regard as Celtic, the Irish, the Scottish, the Manx, the Welsh, the Cornish and the Breton.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

táimíd....this is propsition pronoun correct? this stuff if SO CONFUSING!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.175.7 - 213.243.175.7)
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Look at the examples I gave above from different languages. "Táimíd" is the same as "tá muid" = !we are". That's the way to say "we are" in Irish

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I know its just Irish seems so hard and hopeless to me...I fear I can never accomplish it I swear!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Oliver Grennan (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 12:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike.

I feel your pain. All I can say is try not to get too bogged down in grammar. Irish, like all natural languages was not designed by a committee!

When you learned English, you didn't question why someone was using a preposition, did you? No, you just listened and repeated to get what you wanted. In other words, your mind was OPEN. You didn't have to unlearn the ways of thinking that you have now.

In the same way, I think for your baby steps in Irish, you should try to soak up as many basic phrases as you can, learn to fit them together in a conversation and eventually the grammar will start to fall into place.

If you need some good online learning material, go to the forum at http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com You'll find loads of links in the "Learn Irish Gaelic" section and you're sure to find a site that suits you.

Biodh misneach agat a chara, agus beidh tu ag labhairt teanga do shinsir go luath!

Ádh mór ort.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 05:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike, A Chara:

Hang in there. It'll get better!

Think of Táimíd" as a contraction of "tá muid" much in the same way as "We're" is a contraction of "We are." Both are acceptable. Jonas indicates that the difference is more drastic but I think if you look at it as I have suggested, it'll make more sense.

Táimíd = We're while Tá muid = We are

Táim = I'm while Tá mé = I am

Jonas is very adept at Irish and probably has a more academic approach than most on this site. He's got a ton of knowledge and does a great job of comparing and contrasting other languages with Irish. However, that level of detail can get the beginner bogged down or overwhelmed. I must confess that I've never encountered his other contractions/versions ie; Tann and Taid. This isn't to say they aren't valid, but in the two years I've been working at this language, this is the first time I've ever encountered them. Then again, I've only focused on one dialect! Jonas speaks 5 languages and a number of Irish dialects..I certainly defer to his knowledge!

Take Oliver's advice and stick to some basic phrases and basic grammar for now. If you're using a teach-yourself text stay within the bounds of that text.

I started with three different texts and was utterly confused. I finally settled on the Cois Fhairrage taught by Ó Siadhail in "Learning Irish". Now that I've submerged myself in that, I can more readily pick out the differences in other dialects. It's still alot of work, though!

You hang in there and keep at it. You'll get there....little by little, bit by bit. Take it in small bites and keep working on this site. You won't find a better resource for your questions!

Le meas,

James

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.119 - 67.235.185.119)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Oliver, a chara,
When was the last time you got into www.irishgaelictranslator.com ? I've not been able for about three days now and am wondering if the problem is on my side or theirs. They usually are a really good place to go for some info.
And Mike - BOY do I feel your pain too!! I've just started to get a slight grasp of verb conjugations - and not all of them, yet! And I've been at it for about a year now. About six or seven months ago,I started with Ó Siadhail.
You're also beginning with the most difficult of the verbs. The irregular verbs are a bit tricky and need lots of practice. I still get mixed up on whether someone came or went - or have they given something to someone? LOL.
It sounds as though you're doing what I often do which is to get lost in the forest because of a single tree. SO - go around it. Go to another lesson. Conjugate a different verb.Follow Oliver's advice and maybe just learn a cupla focail or set phrases for conversation now. You'll be surprised at how the context will suddenly just dawn on you.
Try looking at something and then walk away - go cut the grass nó beir chugat féin ól. But don't get discouraged. I've already accepted that it's going to take me the rest of my natural days. And if one day I am able to go through a whole day, meeting with friends and taking care of business speaking only this beautiful tongue :)... Ah, tá súil agam go mb'féidir mé ar lá éigin...
Go n-éirí an t-ádh leat!
-Maidhc.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Larry (217.42.48.164 - 217.42.48.164)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 12:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

James, a chara,

You're not alone. I've been reading Irish since 1969 and it's also the first time I've come across "Tann" and "Taid" ...

Le meas,

Larry.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.177.51 - 213.243.177.51)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde!

James, you are quite right. My approach might well seem very (/too) academic. I guess it's one of these famous cultural differences. As someone living in Finland (and with a very active social life) I naturally know many Finns - ranging from family and very close friends to acquaintenses from school and my two hometowns. Of these thousand of peoples I've never met, or even heard of, a single monoglot. My grandmother is bilingual and there may be some other people I've met who only speak two languages but that is extremely rare. Almost everyone I know or have ever met speaks at least three languages. In fact, when writing our CVs we are told not to include Finnish, Swedish or English under language abilities since, to quote my teacher "they are what everyone knows - language abilities start with your fourth language".

Of course, this has nothing at all to do with intelligence or anything even remotely related to it. (The mere idea would be laughable) It has all to do with the fact the speakers of small languages just have to learn other languages. Most people I know speak either German or French, many speak both. Because of this, it is natural for us to compare languages when we are discussing them. If I'm explaining the principles of Irish to someone in Finland I will probably use examples from English, Swedish, Finnish and German. I assume that those I speak to know these languages.

I know very well that knowledge in many languages is not so common in countries belonging to a major language area - and I do know that most learners here live in English-speaking countries. I'm trying to think about this when posting messages here, but sometimes I just fall into that bad habit ;-)

Actually, the reason I posted all those languages above was in no way because I assumed that everyone knows all of them - quite the opposite. In that case I would have mentioned just a few, but knowing that not everyone speaks German or French I included a good number of languages. Perhaps there would be someone reading who knew at least one or two of those languages and then it would have been helpful for them.

At last, I claim full responsibility for sometimes making things too complicated. My apologies for that. I myself do not like learning a rule and then discovering that there are multiple cases in which the rule is disabled. For this reason I try to give longer explanations, but you are right. As often as not, the result is that I add to the very confusion that I'm trying to avoid. Unfortunately, no living language is a straightforward as maths. There are always lots of exceptions in all languages.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.177.51 - 213.243.177.51)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

About not seeing the forms tánn and táid:

I had studied Irish for two years before I came across these (and many other) Munster forms. Most learners use "Learning Irish" (as did I) and since it only concerns itself with a very restricted area (about 1/3 of the Gaeltacht of County Galway) there are lots of words and forms that are not found in that course. I have no problem at all with that, I think it is a good idea focusing on one dialect. The problem arises when people assume (as I once did) that Cois Fhairrge is some sort of better Irish. It is definitely not. Neither is it worse.

One can learn fluent Irish without ever seeing forms like "tánn" or "táid". It is possible, but that learner will be excluded from most aspects of Irish culture. For a start, you must never visit any of the five Gaeltacht-areas in Munster. You can not listen to RnaG nor watch TG4. And you must avoid the bulk of Irish literature. I guess almost anyone with some knowledge of prose in Irish would agree that these four books belong on any list of the top ten books in Irish:
- An t-Oileánach (Tomás Ó Criomhtháin)
- Fiche Bliain ag Fás (Muiris Ó Súilleabháin)
- Peig (Peig Sayers)
- Séadna (Peadar Ua Laoghaire)

These books are always mentioned together with books like Cré na Cille or Caisleáin Óir. That anyone should learn Irish and never read a single one of them seems too incredible to be possible. And they are full of Munster forms, since the authors all spoke and wrote Munster Irish.

Of the greatest Irish poets during the last 100 years Seán Ó Riordáin and Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill are regarded as two of the very best. Probably two of the three best together with Máirtín Ó Direáin. Both Seán and Nuala used/use Munster forms all the time. In fact, Ó Direáin did it as well. Reading Irish poetry without coming across Munster forms must be very close to reading English poetry without encountering the letter "e".

As you will have noticed, I have only mentioned writers from the last century. The reason is that prior to that all literature used forms that today are regarded as Munster Irish. In other words, the forms of Munster Irish are found in almost all pieces of written Irish. You can definitely LEARN Irish without encountering them (as I did) but you can never USE Irish and not finding them.

Having said that, I'd advice you not to bother with forms that don't belong to the dialect you are using. Learn one dialect well and then you can go on to others. It doesn't really matter what dialect you've learned.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think this is true, but I must say with the whole dialect thing. I know for myself that taid is not confusing because it obviously means tá basically. I dont worry I will be able to understand, just that when I speak would people of any dialect understand if I used tá and not taid or something like this? thats all I worry about and I am glad all of you(well not glad but feel better about it) feel the same frustration. Also to the open mind and phrases first, I noticed I learned english like this and should do the same approach with Irish, but I mean I like to be able to help others and teach it. That way of learning gets in the ways then. I mean can all native english speakers define english as well as a second language? I mean by this is that I want meanings and uses. (to native english speakers---or about anyones first language) Ever come across a word you know and use all the time but cant DEFINE it? I hate this and try not to let it hapopen in spanish or Irish, therefore I do focus on the little things in Irish and spanish a lot, which slow me down I guess..

woh what a long and pointless message I have created LOL

Jonas what languages do you speak? And I see what your saying too. A girl from Russia visited and was near fluent in English, in her country almost EVERYONE speaks english, russian, and then German or French. There school systems actually make them take languages like this. I think this is the reason normally people of countries that speak english don't. This girl knew a lot about American music and such. Here in this next pointless part of the lesson(LOL) I guess I am trying to say I agree that English speakers don't because we don't have to, see no point, and also don't have as many resources and opportunities BECAUSE we don't need it...and if we do NORMALLY it seems to be OPTIONAL, sept some colleges make you take a foreign language.

God I got to get a point when writing my next message!!!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.177.51 - 213.243.177.51)
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike, there is nothing pointless in your message!
In fact I recognise almost everything you write about, I've been there myself.

Every Munster speaker will understand you if you use forms like "tá mé" or "bhí mé". True, they will consider it bad Irish but they will still understand it. Just as a Connacht-speaker understands "táim" and consider it bookish.

What languages do I speak? No idea... ;-) Depends on how you define "to speak a language". Some cases are easy - Swedish is my native tongue and I'm perfectly fluent in it. Swahili is a language in which I don't know a single word. So no matter how narrowly we define "speaking a language" I still speak at least Swedish and no matter how broadly we define it I never speak Swahili ;-)

But okay, I speak Swedish, English, Irish, Finnish and German in the meaning that I can converse freely in these languages, I can read prose and poetry in them as well as reading about academic topics. I could work through the medium of any of those five languages, in fact I've done it in the past.

I also speak French, Russian and Welsh but not at all on the same level. I can go to France, Russia or Wales and get along just fine using these languages in everyday-situations. I can also read newspapers and similar items in them. On the other hand, reading a book in any of these languages isn't that enjoyable. Even though I'm able to do it I have to spend time on thinking about words and sentences and that distract from the pleasure of reading. As to carrying out discussions about more academic topics.. No way, I could neither read nor talk about more complicated topics. I can visit these countries for a week or two and speak the languages but I could not work in them.

Then there are languages like Croatian, Spanish and Portuguese. I never list them on my CV because I don't think that I speak them. Sure, I can carry out short conversations, five minutes or so, about daily topics but that's about all. I don't consider that "speaking a language".

Then there is a special group, Norwegian, Danish and Estonian. Norwegian and Danish are so close to Swedish that I can discuss any topic with someone from Norway and Denmark while they are using their own language. Estonian is quite similar to Finnish, so the same goes there. Even though Danes, Norwegians and Estonians understand every word I'm saying I actually don't speak a single word (well, almost none) in these languages.

So to come back to your question, I normally say that I speak Swedish, Finnish, English, German, Irish, Welsh, French and Russian. Nothing impressive about that, I assure you. I admit that not that many people here speak Irish or Welsh, but the other languages are very common. And then there are lots of people speaking languages that I don't speak, like Spanish and/or Italian. Finnish, Swedish and English are compulsory subjects. Most do German and Russia & French are also common. Latin is experiencing a huge growth in popularity in the schools here, classes are constantly overbooked. The same goes for courses in Irish, actually, but teachers are in short supply. I've been asked to teach it but unfortunately I can't find the time right now. From what I'v heard courses in Czech and Polish are also overcrowded - learning languages is simply a really popular thing to do.

So that's life up here. We have to learn international languages since our own languages are so small that almost no-one is learning them.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 12:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas, A Chara:

Habare Yaku = How are you?

Ninataka bia baridi sana, Tafadhali = I would like a very cold beer, please.

There. Now you have the two most important phrases in Swahili!

Le meas,

James

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike e (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 01:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL and OMG YOU SPEAK TOO MUCH!! And I so wish it were like that here were we had Polish, Irish, Russian, Czech, German classes around. In most schools there is only French, and Spanish. Some colleges sometimes or normally offer german, and a few schools around here have tiny latin classes. I am surprised I found Irish, but I am in a big city with TONS of Irish Decent, and most places have Irish classes only one to a state thats known about and hours away from most. We dont have as many opportunities here because simply, I feel, we dont NEED to...therefore the interest lacks(Which I think is BS). I know I am going to sound moranic, but where is estonian spoken? Can you give me a small sample? And you say those languages are so close they can be speaking one and you another and the whole thing is understand by all whether they speakk all of them or not? Cool...lol

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 01:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I know I am doing it again Im jumping the gun, BUT Does anyone know where one might aqcuire some books TOTALLY in Irish, or spanish? I was thinking if I found a source that in a few years I might get some novels in the language, and then work through them to increase vocab...eventually :-)


Jonas Im sure yoll be the one to know...

What is the correct term for Icelandic?(The language spoken in Iceland...or that was...I think it IS is though)....I mean is it Icelandic?

I really need to learn where and what is spoken in so many places, I mean Estonian? lol I really do need to learn all that I guess

mike

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (128.214.106.19 - 128.214.106.19)
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 07:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike, Estonian is the language spoken in Estonia ;-) http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/estonia/

Estonia is a European country joining EU and NATO next year, its size is somewhat smaller than that of Ireland. It is situated to the south of Finland, to the east of Sweden and to the north of Latvia. Estonia is known for, amonst other things, having won the Eurovision Song Contest* in 2001, hosting the same contest in 2002 and it is generally considered the freest economy in Europe.
(* I guess the ESC isn't well known on the other side of the Atlantic. It is annual song contest viewed on television by hundreds of millions here in Europe.)

The Estonian language is, together with Finnish and Hungarian, the only official state-languages in Europe unrelated to the Indo-European languages. To put it in other words, English and Irish are very close to each other in most ways. Estonian is completely different. The Foreign Office in the US ranks it (and Finnish) as one of the hardest languages in the world. It looks like this:

(* I guess the ESC isn't well known on the other side of the Atlantic. It is annual song contest viewed on television by hundreds of millions here in Europe.)

Meil vanne antud, leping sõlmitud
Kaiotsad lahti päästetud
Me pagas pardal, purjed heisatud
Vöör koitu pööratud

Näe, ahtris silmapiiri sisse lä'eb
Ka viimne kodutorni tipp
Nii lapsepõlv meist randa maha jääb
Ja algabki me reis
:
Kas mõistad, kallis, kõik meil uus on ees
Nüüd vihmas, tuules, päikselõõsa sees
Me ihu, hing ja meel sellel teel
Kuuluvad vaid teineteisele

Kui laiub pärani ees avarus
ükskõik - las laetud rajust see
Me unistused, riskid ühised
Ka lainte keerises

Sul soodiots, mul tüür on peos
siht ühine meid kokku seob
Üks on alus meil, kesk tuuli neid
kus ainsana meil hoida teineteist

In other words, very unlike English or Irish and very similar to Finnish. Just go give you a idea of the difference, look at this. It might make you think that Irish isn't that different after all ;-)

English:
Even in our houses

Swedish:
Även i våra hus

Irish:
In ár dtithe leis

Finnish:
Taloissammekin

So, take comfort in knowing that there are much more frightening languages than Irish out there ;-)

To order books in Irish I'm more than happy to recommend

http://www.litriocht.com

It is a small company situated in the Gaeltacht. (By buying from the you support the Irish speaking communities). They carry every Irish book in print, their staff is extremely helpful, their delivery is fast and their prices are very reasonable. I've used them myself lots of times and I've also visited them on the spot. Take the time to browse their catalouge, if you want any recommendations on books I'll be happy to give them.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well thank you kindly! You are awesome and I am not to far into the language yet to actually get the book, just looking to find a place where I can eventually. :-) And WOH on that one word thing in finnish! And I must say that when you SOUND out the estonian from an english speakers view its not THAT different, I mean I hear a subtle similarity(Which I do in most languages so far) AVEN EVEN is how I see it, probably not the same words though and thank ou so much!!!!! and no Ive never heard of that song contest, I find that usually OTHER countries know about things in America, and we just take other countries things and rip them off...before the majority of public knows about them LOL

Jonas I know your smart and all,
So can you give me some simple LEIGMEN's(SP) terms on AN and NA?

ONE MORE!

Would it be

Na anocht---to say like THE TONIGHT because anocht is feminine?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.190.26 - 213.243.190.26)
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 07:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike, I think there is a risk that you've confused the Swedish and Estonian texts. You are quite right in that ÄVEN and EVEN looks very similar, and they are the same word (the same meaning), but that's in the Swedish text. Swedish is extremely close to English
även = even
i = in
våra = our (similar pronunciation)
hus = house (again, similar pronunciation)

I don't know the Estonian exakt phrase, but it would look very much like the Finnish taloissamekin. The reason is that Finnish and Estonian and prefixes to the words, thus giving meaning. There are numerous prefixes and all can be combined. The different possibilities of combining prefixes means that every Finnish noun can appear in well over a thousand different forms... Quite daunting ;-)

I'll consider the leigmen's terms and come back to it. Do you want just the term or an explanation of them?

I've never heard "the tonight" in English neither have I heard "an anocht" in Irish. To say tonight you just say "anocht", to say this night you say "an oíche seo".

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

lol ok ok the tongight I know is a bad example it was just meant as to try and understand the verb endings, if it WERE common it would be MOST likely be feminine then?

and oops on the swedish thing LOL

and on the an na if possible, and not to much trouble an explenation would be nice


How is that possible in Finnish!? I mean is it like say Evinourhoses? Like pieces of all the words when SEPERATE meshed into one?

Sounds hard!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.190.26 - 213.243.190.26)
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2003 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

well... Right, here's a short explanation. I hope it will make everyone leap for joy over how easy Irish is ;-)

The Finnish word for house is "talo". Easy enough.
Talo on täällä = The house is here

In the ackusative/genitive (the "-n form") the form is "talon".
Näen talon = I see the house

In the partitive (the "a/ä-form") the form is "taloa". The partitive can be tricky, some of its uses are
-describing something that isn't a unity
-describinh something negative
-describing feelings
-describing on-going action, not completed

giving distinctions such as
1.a Näen miehen = I see the man (all of him)
1.b Näen miestä = I see the man (part of him)

2.a Tunnen tytön = I know the girl
2.b En tunne tyttöä = I don't know the girl

3.a Kuulen hänet = I hear her
3.b Rakastan häntä = I love her

4.a Luen kirjan = I will read the book
4.b Luen kirjaa = I am reading the book

5.a Luin kirjan = I read the book (beginning to end)
5.b Luin kirjaa = I read the book (parts of it)

Then there are many other form, going back to talo. Here are some
-Pidän talosta = I like the house
-Raunio muuttui taloksi = The ruin became a house
-Unohdin sen taloon = I forgot it in the house
-Hän asuu talossa = He lives in the house
Well, there are many more but you get the picture.

The plural form of "talo" is "talot" (houses) in the nominative/ackusative, "talojen" (houses') in the genitive and "taloja" (houses) in the partitive. And then there are all those other forms, but let's forget about them.

In Finnish, to say "in" you use the ending -ssa or -ssä. It depends on the othwer vowels in the word, Finnish uses vowel harmony. A, O and U cannot appear in the same word as Ä, Ö or Y. Since "talo" contains A and O we obviously take -ssa, not -ssä, to say in.

So, to say in the house you just add -ssa to talo
talossa.
In the plural you "talot", but obviously you cannot say something like "talotssa". Finnish isn't keen on many consonants in a row.... Instead we take the special form used with endings in the plural, "taloi-", a form that cannot occur independently. Thus we get "taloissa", in the houses.

Right, now the easy part. "Our" is -mme and "even" in "-kin". We just add them, since the word is already in the right form.
Taloissammekin = Even in our houses.

Actually, Finnish grammar can be quite complicated so don't take the explanation above as a sign of simple grammar. I've simplified the rules to avoid an overlong post.

By the way (I always throw in this one, sorry) Tolkien loved Finnish so much that he modelled one of the two Elvish languages of Lord of the Rings on it ;-) The other he modelled on Welsh, as can be seen from the following quote:

"But there were more pleasures in store for young Tolkien. One day he found...a Finnish grammar!!! He soon found himself in phonaesthetic ecstasy. "It was like discovering a complete wine-cellar filled with bottles of an amazing wine of a kind and flavour never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me" (Letters:214). High on Finnish he scrapped his latest project ("make your own Germanic language"), for now he had found more powerful inspirations.
Many years later, he stated that the Elvish tongues were "intended (a) to be definitely of a European kind in style and structure (not in detail); and (b) to be specially pleasant. The former is not difficult to achieve, but the latter is more difficult, since individuals' personal predilections, especially in the phonetic structure of languages, varies [sic] widely... I have therefore pleased myself" (Letters:175-176). This in effect meant that from the point he discovered Welsh and Finnish, they were the main influences on his own linguistic constructions."

I'll get back to AN and NA in a separate post.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 12:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL thanks for all that Jonas...and I don't know how people can speak such a language!! I would take that task now and never ever be able to put ONE sentence together....


Are you familiar with German? Tier...know what this means? I read a book today and the word was in it lol

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 04:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tier is animal

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

hmmm lol so he called the polish girl an animal! lol

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.182 - 67.235.185.182)
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Or a beast. The group "Rammstein" wrote a wicked song titled 'Tier' on their album "Sehnsucht".
-Maidhc.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 02:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Either way it was durogatory...lol and I dont know why! Can it be PLURAL?

Like


Tier....(animals) Cuz it was around a large group of Polish Jews and he was a Nazi

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.178.117 - 213.243.178.117)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 04:34 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Nope, Tier is singular

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ok tankie tankie lol

oh one more thing not just german but about MANY languages...

OK in Irish Bean is like bahn english been and in spanish, it would sound like BAY-AAHN...like each vowel is said alone.......Is this common in other languages? Like are most like Irish and English where they mesh or are they normally on there own?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (128.214.106.19 - 128.214.106.19)
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2003 - 04:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Haló aríst!

This is one of the easiest questions ever ;-)

Almost all languages in Europe are spelled in a very logic way. With "logic" I mean:
1. One sound for one letter
2. The letters are usually given the same value as in Latin (for those that uses this alphabet).

There are some (very few) exceptions, Irish and English are the two outstanding examples. If you apply the pronunciation of Spanish to languages like Italian, Croatian, Swedish, German, Finnish etc. you will have some mistakes but you will be rather close to the correct pronunciation. Not so with the absurd spelling/pronunciation of Irish and English ;-)

In the case of English, this is easy enough to explain. Once English too was pronounced much as it was spellt. In other words, you would have said
- stone (ston@) with a vowel at the end and the "o" as in Spanish.
- night (nigt) with the same "i" as in Spanish
- here (her@) with the vowel at the end
and so on.

As you know, all languages evolve over time. Few, if any, language has changed as much as English. Hardly surprising, giving the heavy influx of first vikings (Old Norse) and then normands (Norman-French). Add to this that unlike most languages, English has not had any spelling reform. So yes, there is a very strong norm for how letters and are pronounced and almost all European languages follow this norm. English and Irish are spectaclurary out of touch with it. ;-)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2003 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

So then about these. I am going to try to get some good history ones, when I can, but I am curious if you had any simple book suggestions. I was thinking in a few months, I would get some and read what a 5 year old might read. Then to move up to maybe what a 4th grader would read, a simple chapter book. Do you have any suggestions? Do they often TRANSLATE an english book into Irish?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 01:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

its me again ;-) I got a Q, isnt there a radio station you can get that is IN Irish online or something?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Oliver (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 01:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yup.

http://www.rnag.ie

http://www.rte.ie

[select RnaG from live streaming]

There's also Raidio na Life but I don't have url, suggest a Google search.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

THANK YOU! I need to get my ears used to listening to this :-)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

1 thing! Every once in a while they say 2-3 words in english then back to Irish "irish irish irish irish irish" whats up with that?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Oliver (217.155.45.123 - 217.155.45.123)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 12:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

What's up with that??

It's a sign of a language under thret of extinction, faraoir géar.

At least they speak some Irish! More than you or me. I often hear Indian speakers here in London interspersing their speech with English, happys everywhere now.

Enjoy RnaG, it's a great radio station, there's a real community feeling to it.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 01:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Are you telling me that they actually dont know those words they want to use?! OMG! I didnt realise Irish was in such a horrible condition!!!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Oliver (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 04:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, often these are brand names or new technology, for which there was no traditional word.

There's a site http://www.acmhainn.ie which is constantly trying to keep up with this.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

They werent very new words, I got no problem with it, I am just kind of...SHOCKED that even the natives have to do such things, hopefully one day people will be filling in their ENGLISH with Irish words :-)!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mIKE (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá mo fuar.--> my house is cold


Cén atá ort?---> Whats your problem?

the is just the words I dont know...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 04:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

WOH! ok let me repost that with parenthesis since it didnt come out!

Tá mo (house) fuar.--> my house is cold


Cén(problem) atá ort?---> Whats your problem?

the ( ) is just the words I dont know...


DONT use the !

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 06:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia duit Mike,

Tá mo (house) fuar.--> my house is cold

Tá mo theach fuar. (but see below)


Cén(problem) atá ort?---> Whats your problem?

= Céard 'tá ort? (What is the thing that is on you?)
= Cad 'tá ort? (What is on you?)

On the same lines, but slightly different:
Cad é an fhadhb? (what's the problem?)

Irish oftens prefers the article as against the possessive pronoun 'mo', 'do', etc. ('adjective of possession' I call it i nGaeilge; aidiacht na seilbhe). So we may look at the first one again:
Tá an teach fuar. (very often equates to) my house is cold.

Maidir le breacadh an Bhéarla tríd an nGaeilge ar RnaG, a lot of those that one hears on RnaG are not native Irish speakers, but rather people from various areas of life who have to comment on one or other matter that may arise in the course of the day. On top of that, one meets different age and social groups that move between languages, mainly Irish / English, to various degrees and registers. The strongest groups of Irish speakers that I have had the pleasure to associate with, in work and socially, would be fishermen, small farmers, homekeepers and various professionals besides. Fishermen have the healthiest Irish language-use behaviour of all in Irish society, I would say from experience.

However, how one peppers one's language with another is an individual choice and one can meet individual speakers in many walks of life who maintain the most beautiful Irish through a combination of an interest in words and phrases, good luck (work/home situation) and pure consciencous decision.

Mar fhocal scoir, speakers in every language are moving to a greater concentration of their own individuality within their own language OR they are moving the other way, i. e. out of it to an alternative language. (Irish is not distinct in this.) The fluctuations that people feel, on a daily basis, in their ability to converse, is related to this movement in/out, whichever it may be, of either language.

If you want to see where any speaker is going, their interjections shall tell you. Ambaist, leoga, muise, mh'anam, dar fia, óra dheabhail, etc. If their interjections are Irish, you will find the rest of the sentence is fairly near to perfect every way.

I habitually stress the importance of interjections for this reason. A lot of learners overlook the interjections. If you have one element of good speech, the rest will follow. There is no rule to learn. You use them anywhere. This helps in natural language. In natural language the completed sentence is the exception. Natural language allows half sentences to be interjections and vice versa. That is that half of natural speech is made up of a lot of what are interjections or halted sentences.
(Níor scríobhas a oiread seo Béarla le fada.)

Ádh mór.

S.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hey thanks!! That was helpful, and confusing too...But I will prolly understand it when I look back at it later, as with most information I get on here

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Is there a word ela or elu?

sounds like EL-UH?

if so whats it mean? I heard it on rnag.ie

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradford (24.220.0.48 - 24.220.0.48)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

eile -- other, another, different

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

lol ok thanks! I am actually CATHING WORDS NOW!

lol I got a Q!

Is bríd an t-ainm atá ar an mBean sin.

You could say AN " "?

NACH
and NI?

and then sin


cant you say ANsin as well?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tuatha

tuatha de dannan(SP)

how are they said and what does each word mean?
I have ideas on saying it but am not sureq

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ONE MORE!


tá sé fuar IN anseo?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 08:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yeh, listening is the way to go. Even if you only pick up the odd word, it works in the end. This is how children acquire language in the same way, being swamped with sounds that initially mean nothing.
Later on, you shall identify individual trains of though and sides in discussions/interviews.
Listening to rampant speech and plunging into a dictionary is a very productive act in language learning. Go n-éirí sin leat.


There are other ways to say the following, but we shall stick to what's in front of us.

Is é 'Bríd' an t-ainm atá ar an mbean sin.
also:
Is é 'Bríd' ainm na mná sin.
(Bríd is the name of that woman/Bríd is that woman's name)


Nach é 'Bríd' ainm na mná sin?
Isn't Bríd that woman's name?

Nach é 'Bríd' an t-ainm atá uirthi sin?
Isn't her name Bríd?

NI? (Don't know what you seek here Mike.) Perhaps:
Ní hé 'Bríd' an t-ainm atá ar an mbean sin, an é?


and then sin:


cant you say ANsin as well?
Is the following what you want? :

Nach é 'Bríd' ainm na mná sin ansin?
Therefore/then, isn't 'Bríd' that woman's name?
(So, isn't that woman called Bríd?)

Tuatha Dé Danann
(The) Peoples of the goddess Danu.
The words of both languages are in the same order.

Tá sé fuar anseo, nach bhfuil?
It is cold here, isn't it?

An bhfuil sé fuar anseo?
Is it cold here?

That's it, no IN.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Le ceartú: trains of though > thought

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

OK on the Bríd thing, before whomever told me how to say that left out the é/hé...why is it in there???

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Because it is trying to identify her name.
What were you told mar sin (that you're not telling me Mike!)?

Is fiú duit 'identification sentences' a chuardach ar shuíomh seo na nDaltaí. Tá an-eolas soláthraithe ag fear darb ainm Ed. Ó Dúbhshláine.

It shall be worth your while to search here on the Daltaí facility for 'identification sentences'. A gent. by the name of Edward Delaney has explained in precise terms what is going on in the copula if you follow that lead.
This facility here on the left has a lot of worthwhile stuff in it. Just do a few runs on 'singular', 'plural', 'noun' or whatever.

Slán go fóill,

S.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Seosamh mac muirí or Jonas I think you two will most likely take this one

I was learning a little bit about some Irish prayers from a man and he told me this


In ainm an athAr.

Now I am confused on how Irish puts in the OF part in their, I didnt understand what he said completely

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.175.7 - 213.243.175.7)
Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Looks like Seosamh hasn't commented yet. I think his explanations of Irish grammar are clearer than mine so I hope he will be around.

Anyway, "In ainm an athar" = "In the name of the father".

"athair" is the word for "father", "the father is "an t-athair". In the genitive the final "r" is made broad, giving:
"athar" = "of father"
"an athar" = "of the father". Note that no "t-" is used after the article when a masculine noun is in the genitive form.

The "an" before "ainm" is dropped because two nouns in a genitive construction can't both be definite.

Then we get
in = in
ainm = name
an = the
athar = of father

In the name of the father.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am real embarasses to admit it, but genetive, this word I need defined. I am not very good with grammer, and the whole t- thing does confuse me a little, I would think it is úrú...when putting úrú on vowels though it is as n-?

Thanks

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jonas (213.243.175.7 - 213.243.175.7)
Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry, my fault entirely. I was a bit tired and didn't think, I usually try to explain technical terms.

"Genitive" is the case that conveys ownership. Many Indo-European have six or seven cases, nominative, ackusative, genitive, dative, vocative, locative and instrumental. Don't bother about them now, though.

In English there are only two cases left, nominative and genitive. Nominative is the "simple / original" form and "Genitive" is the case that conveys ownership.

Here are some examples in English
nominative = the man / an fear
genitive = the man's / an fhir

nominative = a woman / bean
genitive = a woman's / mná

nominative = the priest / an sagart
genitive = the priest's / an t-sagairt

nominative = the country / an tír
genitive = the country's / na tíre


Conveniently, nominative and genitive is all you need for Irish as well. Both the vocative and the dative survive in some standard phrases, but you don't need to learn them - they are no longer a feature of the spoken language. If you want to study German, though, you have to learn four cases, six for Russian and seven for Lithuanian. Not a bad thing to stick to Irish ;-)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 06:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex a chara,

Jonas has given a clear description of what's going on there in genitive. Jonas, myself and others have described the same process on earlier posts similiarly. (Go through 'genitive' a search to the left.) There are a few matters that we don't bother to hit on in such descriptions.
It is one of these that seems to be at the source of your statement: 'Now I am confused on how Irish puts in the OF part in their, I didnt understand what he said completely.'

Still trying to keep it clear and short, it can be said that the 5th. declension of modern Irish became the dustbin of Old Irish so to speak. R-stems, N-stems, T and D-stems and other cantankerous elements, in small numbers, got dumped in there. You can note that 'bráthair' > bráthar [ginideach uatha], 'máthair', 'deartháir' for example, behave like 'athair' in genitive and they do not behave like 'cathair'. You can see their genitives here from the following: http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/ by just typing in the word.

You may be pleased to note that there aren't too many of these cantankerous nouns in the 5th. declension. The system works most of the time. Once in a while, someone like yourself meets these undesireables in the system. You may like to remember them in general by the start of the prayer, 'In ainm an Athar, ...' and ascribe the title 'non-conforming' to them. They're a little different, but once you're aware of them, it proves that you're discovering, learning and able to progress.

Beir gach bua.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks guys


So in this


Raidió na gaeltachtA

The A makes it OF gaeltacht?

ok ok well then I will try to overlook this all until my vocabulary expands enough...when I get some of the books to translate and a dictionary


Go raibh maith agabh, a chairde

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 05:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

gaeltachtA

The A makes it OF gaeltacht?

Sin é Alex.

You've got it, and as Jeremiah Curtin used to say, 'I have you now and I'll never let you go'.

Gach bua agus beannacht.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

huh? lol

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sea, a Alex, níor thug mé mórán de mhíniú ar an méid sin thuas. I really didn't expand that last piece.

http://www.uwm.edu/map/buildings/vt-crt-prof.html

http://members.busynet.net/0557/Barraart.htm

http://members.busynet.net/0557/craobh.htm

http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~erburian/curtain.html

Tá an-lear eolais i dtaobh an Churtánaigh ar an líon - there's a ton of stuff on the net about him.
Ba dhuine an-ilteangach é - he was a serious polyglot.

When Curtin fully understood a new word for the first time, he reputedly thought about it on those lines of, 'I have you now and I'll never let you go'.

Slán go fóill,

S.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

How do you say GREAT GRANDMOTHER?

Thanks :-)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mo shin-seanmháthair; do shin-seanmháthair;
an tsin-seanmháthair; ...

Mo sheanmháthair mhór; do sheanmháthair mhór;
an tseanmháthair mhór; ...

Fáilte romhat.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

uhm.....???

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Me and a friend of mine"

Any websites on the general rules on how to make something OF? its REALLY confusing...like REALLY REALLY confusing

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mise agus cara liom.

Mise agus care de mo chuid.

You notice the no. 1 comes first, as distinct from English being polite and 'A friend and I ...'.

This may be what you want, by Kay Ní Chinnéide:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~kuichinneide/inneacsgramadai.html

NB. Take your grammar in small doses Mike.

Bíonn blas ar an mbeagán. - A little is tasty (an excess is not!).

Slán go fóill,
S.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Christina (213.122.244.220 - 213.122.244.220)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am reading a Irish story book at the moment and am getting completly frustrated with all the changes in the verbs and keeping track of the story. I checked out http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/ website (which Seosamh posted earlier) it has been a God send. It is great for providing the different tenses to verbs. Definitly recommend it to all beginners!

Could anyone could recommend a really good Irish dictionary?

Thanks
Christina

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you

Christina check Amazon.com...why not?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 06:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The standard Irish dictionaries are:
Foclóir Gaeilge - Béarla Ó Dónaill
English -Irish Dictionary De Bhaldraithe

Both are available in hard or paperback.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dona Crei tun? anyone?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An cat mná

the womans cat?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 04:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cat na mná

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jessica Ní Chonchúbhair (213.202.163.237 - 213.202.163.237)
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Woman=bean

Women=mná

Which one are you looking for?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

ACH tuiseal ginideach atá i gceist le
the woman's cat
mar sin;
cat na mná!

bean
ginideach mná (genitive)
iolra mná (plural)
ginideach iolra: ban (genitive plural)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jessica Ní Chonchúbhair (213.202.161.23 - 213.202.161.23)
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ah see, I haven't learned that yet. Tá mo rang gaeilge ag dul iontach mal :(

Modh Coinealach agus Tuiseal Ginideach. I can't wait....>:(

Anyway, that seems more knowledgeable, so I'd go with what he said! Thanks Aonghus.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bradford (216.16.15.66 - 216.16.15.66)
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jessica,

It's always a safe bet to go with what Aonghus says. He's a native speaker! :)

- Bradford

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jessica Ní Chonchúbhair (213.202.161.23 - 213.202.161.23)
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Bradford, thanks for that.

I was thinking about starting a topic so that we could all share some information, but I think maybe its best to stick to the aul Irish as a topic.

Slán!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Aonghus, so you say

Cat na mná...the woman's cat

Cat na ban...the womEn's cat?
Also bean is woman, mná is genetive, mná is women as well, and ban is women's genetive??

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 04:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Cat na mban

>>Also bean is woman, mná is genetive, mná is women as well, and ban is women's genetive??

precisely!

Words that are most frequently used are likely to be most irregular!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK lol thats going to confuse me Mná and mná...but the affect on words will tell it correct? why is it mBan there? and not like cat na mná? is it because M can be eclipsed?

I wonder will I ever get this language?!

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lámh eile (217.155.45.120 - 217.155.45.120)
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Cat na mBan (the cat of the women)Plural

Cat na mná (the cat of the woman)Singular

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul (67.101.25.61 - 67.101.25.61)
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike, a chara:
I'd suggest you get your hands on a copy of the book Progess in Irish. It's available at litriocht.com and would be very helpful to you.
All the best, Paul

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 03:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Leabhar an-inmholta is ea 'Progress in Irish'. Glan, simplí agus teoranta sa tslí is fearr.
Is ait liom ar bhealach nach dtagraítear níos minice dó anseo nó in aon áit eile. An-leabhar agus is minic a mholaim féin do lucht foghlama é.
S.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mike (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 01:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

ok thanks

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

How do you say


Family?

Is it like this for old friends?

Sean-chairde? or chairde sean?

then

Draoi=singlular -??? = plural form???

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

OCG (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Seanchairde NEVER chairde sean

Draoi singular

Draoithe plural

If unsure, find all forms of nouns and verbs here:

http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

miek (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

thanks

one more thing I should know but for some reason dont get clear

When you are writing something that is eclipsed(úrú) is the eclipsed letter capitalized? cat=gCat

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Family = clann

>When you are writing something that is eclipsed(úrú) is the eclipsed letter capitalized? cat=gCat

Not unless it is a proper noun (the name of a person or place)

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mikey (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2003 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

oh oh I got this! lol


I forget my example but I know it :-) How do I know when to prefix too? (t-ainm)


PLUS! lol
one more thing does an eclipsed vowel look like this?

n-A----

or na----
I was told for PREFIXING it was like
'
If it is capitalized it if like this nA--- and then if it was lower case n-a---

Is this true for the úrú as is in the prefixing?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 04:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>>If it is capitalized it if like this nA--- and then if it was lower case n-a---

>>Is this true for the úrú as is in the prefixing?

I don't understand you question! n is an eclipse in this case. The hyphen is only used for lower case

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ok thats what I meant


Like this

Its like

An t-ainm and the An tUarach(I THINK for president? LOL I didnt write it down) because the president word is a title and proper now, I was asking is it the same with the uru


nUarach
n-ainm
ok I know a lot of the examples arent right but lol what did ya expect here? lol

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

An t-ainm
An tUachtarán

I'm not sure about the hyphen for the urú; If it's used, it will only be with lower case; but I have a feeling it is not used. I'll check

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 04:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The definitive answer:
both the urú (n) and t before a vowel require a hyphen unless the vowel is capitalised. The h before a vowel does not.

The raeson I was given, and it makes sense, is that without the hyphen it would be possible to confuse an eclipsed vowel with a word starting with the letter which eclipses.

The problem doesn't arise with the H as there are hardly any words in Irish starting with h - and all of them are loan words.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you and thats what I thought :-D Correct? I was right, unless I misunderstood you(which isnt uncommon with me) LOL

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 10:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think I have an Example!

Like this


An nAthar or an n-athar(genetive of father)

Is different that

An nathar(I think this means snake, or of the snake) Yes?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 04:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ár n-athar - our father (Capital A only when referring to God)
ár nathair - our snake

Go raibh maith agat, Alex

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Alex (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ok but the words ARE An athar and an nathar ORIGINALLY?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 03:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I got a Q

Does is go

Is Tú cara maith?

Like that?

Is tú bean?

Like do you go with the IS v. Tá when its like you are (A) -- ?

or is it Is Cara maith tú?


Someone said Irish grammer goes VERB SUBJECT NOUN ADJECTIVE/REST OF SENTENCE and I think it is the second one(Is cara maith tú) so how would that work like that IF SO?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

mike (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 03:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL I forgot it NOW I REMEMBER!


Would you say

Tá mé go brón?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Aonghus (159.134.62.78 - 159.134.62.78)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is cara maith thú
Is bean tú

Tá brón orm
Tá mé brónach

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (152.163.252.163 - 152.163.252.163)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ok thank you! And then the nathar thing.....is NATHAR snake or the genetive like athar is to athair

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul (68.167.58.104 - 68.167.58.104)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mike, a chara,

I had a very patient and supportive teacher when I was first learning Irish. Her method (and this is something you could do on your own as well) was to slowly take us through chapters in Progress in Irish, by Máiréad Ní Ghráda -- ISBN 0 86167 159 7, which shows you the basics grammar and construction of sentences in Irish, and Buntus Cainte Number 1, a conversation-based learners' method -- it's a book and cassette set. It worked for me.

All the best, Paul

PS: Buntus Cainte is available on this site, under "Shop." Progress in Irish is available from www.litriocht.com. Both are very reasonably priced.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 09:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh I know that books are good, lol I am getting books shortly

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mike (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

lol ok you people are going to hate me for these Qs, but I am confused still!


Is tír gan teanga tír gan anam

Now this saying is translated as the country w/out the language doesnt have the soul, but the thing is that part comes first and I thought it was Is tiománai é.....as in shouldnt it be Is tír gan anam tír gan teanga???

Another with this form, I noticed the whole thing with is é and is í as apposed to tá sé with the S, so what are the other forms???

Libh, sibh? and all that?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

OCG (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 05:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Either:

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam (note comma)

or

Is tír gan anam í tír gan teanga.

Dála an scéil:

As a Christmas present to me, could this and the other exceedingly long thread be locked??

This thread is much too long and it's just very awkward to use, it's also a bit of an eyesore.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.


©Daltaí na Gaeilge