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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (October-December) » Bioc? « Previous Next »

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ChristyShepherd (24.98.157.114 - 24.98.157.114)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I believe that the person who wished for this to be translated wrote this word down incorrectly, I can't find anything even similar. Is there such a word?

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Larry (217.43.57.207 - 217.43.57.207)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Christy, a chara,

The nearest word which springs to mind would be "biocáire" - vicar. I'm not familiar with "bioc".

Le meas,

Larry.

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Mare (81.11.178.4 - 81.11.178.4)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Bá mhaith leat an cupán tae eile freisin, a bhiocáire ?

:-)

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Mare (81.11.178.4 - 81.11.178.4)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry, that should have been "An mhaith" of course

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Mare (81.11.178.4 - 81.11.178.4)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

and is it "a mbiocáire" ?

I reread James' post on another thread about consonants etc: b takes m ? I get confused between reading and pronouncing too often.

Please help me to get this phrase right?

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Oliver Grennan (217.155.45.123 - 217.155.45.123)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's how they say it, a Mhare.

Ar mhaith leat cupán tae eile, a bhiocaire?

Would you like another cuppa tea, vicar?

An maith leat = do you like?
Ar mhaith leat= would you like?

Is/ní maith liom = I do/don't like
Ba/níor mhaith liom = I would/wouldn't like

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 02:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Mare,

It would be a bhiocáire because we are using the vocative and the vocative requires lenition. You are confusing eclipses with lenition. If we were talking about something being with, above, beside etc, the vicar then we would need the urú.

Mar sampla: An bhfuil an gaeilge ar an mbiocáire? Literally, is there Irish on the Vicar? But, meaning does the Vicar speak Irish?

Tá an gasúr an aice leis an mbiocáire. The child is beside the Vicar. (an aice leis is a phrase that translates as "beside")

In all cases of eclipsis (urú) the eclipsing consonant does exactly that: it eclipsis the sound of the original consonant. So, is this case your pronunciation would be more like "mic-air" I might have the word wrong but I'm certain that the "m" sound supercedes the "b". Remember, I'm still learning this stuff too!

There are a couple of other cases where eclipsis would come into play as well. I'll have to get out my books and find them. Let me see what McGonagle has to say about it.

Le meas,

James

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Larry (217.43.57.196 - 217.43.57.196)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 09:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James, srl, a chairde,

I'd use tá....ag to express the ability to speak a language. Tá Gaeilge agam - I have Irish, or there's Irish AT me, rather than "ar".

Le meas,

Larry.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"An bhfuil an gaeilge ar an mbiocáire"

I would think this meant "can x be translated into Irish"

See Larry's post!

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Mare (81.11.178.4 - 81.11.178.4)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh míle maith agaibh !

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Larry,

I see where that would make sense. I've heard the Hiberno-english phrase, "The Irish is on him" and "He has the Irish." So my question would better be asked, "An bhfuil an gaeilge ag an mbiocáire?"

But, my dear friend Aonghus has a different take.

Aonghus, A Chara:

How would you ask if someone speaks a language? If I change "ar" to "ag" does that solve the problem or is it a problem of construction?

Mare:

See what you've started!!! Now I'm learning again!!

Le meas,

James

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Larry (217.42.54.16 - 217.42.54.16)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

James, a chara,

"An bhfuil Gaeilge ag an biocáire?" - an biocáire - the vicar (masculine noun, no lenition.) "Does the vicar speak Irish?"

The problem often lies in the fact that there's no direct equivalent to the English word "have". To say, for example, "I have a cold" you'd use "Tá fuacht orm" - there's a cold on me.

Le meas,

Larry.

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Mare (81.11.178.4 - 81.11.178.4)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

James,

Tá bron orm (snigger) - I personally love getting sparks that send me learning and searching, too.

Le meas,
M. aka The vicar of Ballybeek

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 04:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

An bhfuil gaeilge ag an bhiocáire? Does the vicar have Irish, i.e. does he speak it

An bhfuil gaeilge ar an mbiocáire? Is there irish on the vicar, i.e. Can "biocaire" be translated into Irish (yes, I know that sentence makes no sense....)

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 04:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Addendum
fuacht is something outside you are subject to
Tá fuacht orm

Gaeilge is something you possess
Tá gaeilge agam

fuar (cold) is a state
Tá mé fuar

An engineer is what I am
is innealtóir mé


Hope that hasn't further muddied the waters....

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Larry (217.42.55.158 - 217.42.55.158)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James, a chara,

Having looked back at what I've written, I realise that my previous post in this thread may have caused some confusion.

>>"... an biocáire - the vicar (masculine noun, no lenition.) ". This is, of course, entirely incorrect and I withdraw that part of my explanation. The article "an", when preceded by the preposition "ag" does require séimhiú.

I cannot explain my reason for making such a mistake and I'm extremely sorry if I've muddled the issue. My tutor would be pulling his hair out if he read my previous post!

Tá brón orm, mo chara.

Le meas mór,

Larry.

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 08:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Are you sure???? The original issue with lenition in this thread was in association with the vocative case.

Ar mhaith leat cupán tae eile, a bhiocaire?

Vocative, as I know you know, always demands lenition on leniteable consonants.

With the exception of my initial response addressing a vocative relationship, all of my attempts were associated with the dative case I think. I'm still working on understanding dative, genetive etc, but I think (stress the word think) I'm right in this situation. In this case we're asking if something (Irish) is at someone (the Vicar). I believe this to be a dative relationship but, as I've said many times, I am woefully deficient at these grammatic relationships.

According to McGonagle, when the article is preceded by a preposition in a dative relationship the following consonant takes the urú, not the séimhiú, unless it is a feminine noun beginning with d, t or s + vowel, sl, sn and sr, in which case the feminine noun meeting this criteria is prefixed with a t-.

The exceptions being sa (san), den agus don which do, in fact, take the séimhiú. The same rule for feminine nouns mentioned above applies here, as well.

I'm open to correction, as always.

Le Meas,

James

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Tomás (198.22.236.230 - 198.22.236.230)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 09:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá slaghdán orm. = I have a cold. (A cold is on me.) ...Agus déanaim....i ndáiríre. ;)

Tomás

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Larry (217.42.55.158 - 217.42.55.158)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James, a chara,

The part where I'd made my original mistake was in saying:

"An bhfuil Gaeilge ag an biocáire?" - an biocáire - the vicar (masculine noun, no lenition.) "Does the vicar speak Irish?"

My mistake lay in saying that, in a phrase such as "Does the vicar speak Irish?", the use of the definate article would not cause lenition.

I don't have McGonagle's book at hand but I'm reasonably sure that the correct way to ask the question is "An bhfuil Gaeilge ag an bhiocáire?" as highlighted by Aonghus in his reply.

I hope this hasn't confused the issue even more.

Le meas,

Larry.

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.112 - 67.235.185.112)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Shouldn't that be "An bhfuil Gaeilge ag an mbiocáire? A noun following a preposition + the definite article. That's how I took it from Ó Siadhail in lesson 5.
Lenition might come if the there were an adjective describing the vicar. "An bhfuil Gaeilge ag an mbiocáire maith?" Eclipse on the noun following the preposition + the definite article, but no seimhiú on the adjective following the masculine noun.
Also, would it be,"Ar mhaith 'leis' an mbiocáire maith cupán tae?" Does the good vicar want a cup of tea? - If I were using indirect phrasing.
-Maidhc

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Larry, A Chara:

I've come to accept confusion as the order of the day when dealing with Irish grammar! You are probably right enough in this case. It's just that I'm not sure I understand the difference between the two sentences. Both ag and ar join with the definite article. Both are asking about an item (Irish)in relation to another item (the Vicar). The only difference is "on" or "at." Why is one lenited and the other eclipsed? Of course, I defer to your experience and proficiency and to Aonghus's native ear....I just don't see why one is different from the other in this case.

Is it more an issue of concept rather than words used? In other words, while we are asking about Irish being at or on the Vicar what we are really asking is does he "have" Irish versus can it be applied to the word Vicar. I'm not really sure I even understand what I'm trying to say here but hopefully you will!!

Any clarification would be most helpful.

Go raibh maith agat.

James

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.112 - 67.235.185.112)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK. A quick search found under the heading of "translation" - Nicole, on 10/10/03 gave a list of prepositions which give urú when used with the definite article. These are ar, ag, leis, in san, faoin, and i. Another quick look into the gramamr list on this site bore this out as true from the examples given. Whether or not there are more couldn't be readily determined from those examples.
-Maidhc.

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Larry (217.42.55.158 - 217.42.55.158)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

James, a chara,

If I was as experienced as you say, I wouldn't have made such a fundamental mistake in fudging the issue of "ag" when used in conjunction with the definate article :) Once again, I accept without qualification that I made an error.

Having got that preamble out of the way let me say that I'm aware of the confusion many students experience when attempting to tackle the reasons why, in some cases, the preposition "ag" is used instead or "ar". I'm also aware that some text books are not very clear in their explanation. As a general rule, use "tá....ag" when referring to a possession and "tá....ar" when referring to the condition of something as Aonghus pointed out. You possess something like a material object - a book, for example - or a language, so I know that it's correct to say "Tá leabhar agam" and "Tá Gaeilge agam". To say that Seán possesses a book, use the construction "Tá leabhair ag Seán". To say "I'm sorry", referrring to the state I'm in, use the well known phrase "Tá brón orm".

Where some of the confusion lies in this case is in trying to say that THE vicar speaks Irish - "Tá Gaeilge ag an bhiocáire". It's my understanding that you use seímhiú (with consonants b, c, f, g, m p) following "ag an". If you ask me where I get that from, I honestly couldn't tell you. It's something I've picked up along the way.

I realise that I probably haven't answered your question, but in the time available (I'm having a beer tonight) it's the best I can come up with when dealing with such a complex issue as this.

Le meas,

Larry.

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2003 - 02:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Are you suggesting that there is an exception to a rule in Irish!!!! How ludicrous!! There are not exceptions to rules in Irish. It's all cut and dried, straightforward, consistent......oh wait a minute.....never mind.

I'll get the hang of this stuff one day. Of course, by the time that happens I'll be in a nursing home and they'll think my Irish is the first sign of dementia!

Thanks for the input. What I really, really, really need is about 3 months in a gaeltacht so that this will become a reflex rather than a thought out process. One day, mo chara. One day.

Le meas,

James

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.41 - 67.235.185.41)
Posted on Friday, October 24, 2003 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

This really confounds me. Ó Siadhail, in lesson 6 gives,"7. expressing 'to have'
Tá teach ag an mbean. The woman has a house." > Eclipse after 'ag an'. THE woman.
In lesson 30,"1. Use of ag 'by, as a result of'
Tá an fear tinn ag an ngrian. The man is sick as a result of the sun." > Again, eclipse after 'ag an'. THE man.
Both of these fly in the face of what Larry gives concerning the letters b, c, f, g, m, and, p. But giving nod to Aonghus' reflexive speaking response with "ag an bhiocáire" ans to Larry's more advanced knowledge over me, - eeeekk.
Could the 'b,c,f,g,m,p thing be dialectal?
I, too, could use a cupla months in a gaeltacht.
-Maidhc.

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2003 - 02:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Mhaidhc,
What you are encoutering in Ó Siadhail is directly consistent with what I find in McGonagle. My guess is that these two are gramatically correct but what Larry and Aonghus are giving us is the practical usage. It's probably similar to the grammatical use of "I" versus "me" in english.

He gave the books to my mother and me.

He gave the books to my mother and I.

The first being grammatically correct but the second being more commonly used.

Of course, this is speculation on my part. I'm just trying to resolve what I'm seeing in the texts with what two of the stalwarts of this site are suggesting.

Le meas,

James

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.148 - 67.235.185.148)
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2003 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A little search from another site got me this. The morphing from eclipse to seimhiú occurs in Donegal. It comes onto single nouns following a preposition + the definite article.
Try going to this to view the info.
http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/viewtopic.php?=32461

-Maidhc.

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.148 - 67.235.185.148)
Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2003 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Rats! It won't work! I guess you'd have to log in and check under "B,C,F,G,M,P." in the forums.
-Maidhc.

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Larry (217.42.53.71 - 217.42.53.71)
Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 07:33 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chairde,

I've been away for a few days, but by way of a quick example of how the construction "tá ... ag an (noun with lenition instead of eclipsis)" is in everyday use, look at http://www.nuacht.com/story/?cat_id=1&newsid=6515

The first sentence in the above link contains the term "...tá ráite ag an fhile..."

Le meas,

Larry.

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