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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (October-December) » Basic Questions and such for begginners « Previous Next »

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Alex McGrath (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK a few things...

#1 Dia duit is it best spelt Dia dhuit? Is it pronounced (DEE-AH GIT)?

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Jonas (213.243.176.45 - 213.243.176.45)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia duit and Dia dhuit are both correct, I wouldn't say that one is better than the other. There is no "g" sound at all in the pronunciation, the first sound is "dhuit" is not found in English. You could always stick to "Dia duit" /d´i@ dit´/

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 04:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I've seen this spelled both ways and I've heard it pronounced in a number of ways.

Dee-uh Gwitch

Dee-uh Gut

Dee-uh git

Dee-uh yut

This is just a smattering attempt at duplicating the sounds that I've heard associated with this greeting. My guess is that the variations in pronunciation are regional. I'd be interested in the native/resident comments.

Le meas,

James

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Dawn (66.19.56.24 - 66.19.56.24)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex,

The broad sound of dh and gh is similar to the French r. Their slender sound is y.

This of course is only at the beginning of a word or syllable. When at the end, they either are silent or change the sound of the vowel in front of them.

Dawn

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Jonas (213.243.176.45 - 213.243.176.45)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex & James,

As I said above, the pronunciation of "G" is not found in any dialect. That is not to say that it can't be heard, but not from native speakers. dh/gh is one of the sounds that English speakers have problems pronouncing, another one is "ch". The usual tendency is to turn "gh" into "g" and "ch" into "c". These features can be heard, but they are not in any way dialectal varieties, just bad pronunciation.

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Alex mcGrath (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

This just really sucks now. I am more confused than before! I need a native person to help me with my pronunciations! Anyone from Ireland visiting chicago? ;-) I guess it will come eventually....This is so hard! Ive got another question as well

Is it:

Séamas(Shay-mush)

or (haymish)
(shaymis?)

lol and finally I am not sure on my spelling of the original name but you get the idea!

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alex McGrath (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL is this the new spot?

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Dawn (66.19.56.24 - 66.19.56.24)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara,

Séamas (SHAY-muhs)

A Shéamais (uh HAY- mush) This is the vocative (when calling to someone or using their name when speaking to them)

If you're looking for a native speaker in Chicago, check out the Irish-American Heritage Center. Otherwise it's imperative that you purchase some audio tapes.

Irish is hard. There's no way around it. You must have a love for it to stick with it; but if you do, you will be infinitely rewarded. You're only just beginning, but you have a great resource here. Be encouraged - your not the only one who started from scratch. I did this all on my own for a year before I found Daltaí. Keep persevering!

Your fellow Chicagoan newbie,
Dawn

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Alex (67.167.104.192 - 67.167.104.192)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dawn your from chicago? Any how I know this is posisble yes, but I cant get their and dont think my mom would look to keenly on it(Im only 13)


So would I use sÉamas when speaking ABOUT someone... and A shÉamais??

Oh gods, For being an english speaker and having thought spanish was hard...getting used to SH-h and S-SH is gonna be hard! LOL

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Alex Again (67.167.104.192 - 67.167.104.192)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Luh Mush(Le meas)?

a chara(uh kar-uh)?

IM trying to be able to recognize this now

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Alex McGrath (67.167.104.192 - 67.167.104.192)
Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK ONE MORE! I need to think if theres anything else I want to put into this before I post it!

Anyhow,

Can anyone recomend good books or tapes for me to look into?

I am going to get those, pair them with a native speaker and some lessons and will be off to a start soon!

Irish sticks so much better than spanish...actually seems easier to me in some aspects(I shouldnt speak so soon though)

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Dawn (66.19.56.24 - 66.19.56.24)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 01:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Irish easier than Spanish? You must tell me how Alex!


Seo mo chara, Séamas. - This is my friend Seamas.

Conas tá tú, a Shéamais? - How are you, Seamas?


Do you see now Alex?


Le meas (luh mas [short a]) - with respect, respectfully

a chara (uh KHAHR-uh [kh is hard like ch in the word loch, do you know this sound?]) - friend (once again the vocative, when you're addressing your friend directly)


Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.24 - 66.19.56.24)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 01:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh sorry - yes, I'm in Chicago.

Keep the questions coming, Alex. There aren't too many people who are newer at this than I am, so I like having someone around whose questions I can answer myself. :)

Oh, but don't worry. I won't attempt an answer to anything I don't know!

Dawn

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 03:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas, Mo chara:

No "g" sound in any of the dialects???? Go raibh maith agat. I guess the gardai, have a hard time then, don't they? And those poor souls that reside in Gaillimh....how do they ever manage? I guess that if I had spent my time as a young gasúr in a gaeltacht I would have a better feel for the absence of the "g" sound from any dialect.

You don't seriously mean this do you? Or, are you infering that the "dh" mutation into "g" doesn't exist? In this case I would agree. It may well be an adapted and regionally prominent "bad pronunciation." Just as the New Englander pronounces Car as "cah" and a Midwesterner pronounces "wash" as "warsh". It is poor pronunciation, but it is regionally accepted as the "normal" sound.

Alex,

I would recommend Learning Irish by Ó Siadhal. It's a bit cumbersome at first but it really is the most comprehensive text I've found. The dialect is Cois Fhairrage from the area west of Galway. The tapes are very useful in that they don't speak that slow, methodical, artificially enunciated way that most tutorial tapes do. Mar sampla.... An bhfuil sé anseo? Ahn hwil shay anshow is pronounced "wilshansho" on the tapes. It's fast, it's furious but it's realistic.

This book is very heavy on grammar and may be a bit overwhelming for a 13 year old. My daughter is 12 and I've been working with her using a series of books called Buntús Cainte. There is absolutely NO grammar involved at all. It's a series of books and tapes that will get you speaking rather quickly. You can worry about the grammar side of things over the summer, when you aren't committed to your regular studies! The books in this series are availabe from the shop on this site but you MUST get the tapes that accompany the books. If you don't you'll never figure out the pronunciation. Hey, I'm a 41 year old "beginner" and I use it from time to time....it's a good series!

That's my recommendation for the books and the "self teaching" side of things. Now, to answer your question about pronunciation.

To help you with the pronunciation of Sh versus S and other conundrums, you'll need to understand a couple of things:

In Irish there are two types of consonants, broad and slender. This differentiation is tough for english speakers. Roughly, and I do mean roughly, speaking, in the case of "S" the "sh" sound is the slender and the purer "S" sound is broad. So, how do you know which to use? As a general rule, Back Vowels (a,o and u...think of the phrase OUt bAck) produce the broad sound. The others, e and i, called Front Vowels, impart the slender sound.

Doras (door)>>>> d,r,s are all broad

Séamas (James)>>>> the first S is slender because its neighboring vowel is "e" a Front Vowel, the M is broad because it is bordered by "a" on both sides and the final "s" is broad because it is bordered by "a". Hence, the sound of Shaymus.

The next piece of confusion arises with the concept of lenition. Lenition, called Séimhu (pronounced Shave-you) in Irish, meaning "to soften", changes the sound of the consonants that are capable of being lenited. You could write a book, and many have, on lenition and when it is required. For now, let's stay with the example at hand...The Vocative.

The Vocative case is like saying "Oh James, where are you going? It sounds rather old fashioned to us but it is a part of Irish speech. The Vocative is indicated by the "A" in "a chara". This, is like saying "oh friend". Now, when you use the Vocative you must employ lenition on the following word if it begins with a consonant that is capable of being lenited. Those consonants are b,c,d,f,g,m,p,s,t. It's easier to remember the ones that DON'T lenite and they are h,l,n and r. Remember this phrase and it'll be easier:

HaLoRaN was a hard man who never softened. (Remember that the Irish word for lenition is Séimhu, meaning "to soften.") All of the consonants in "haloran" are never lenited.

MS. HaLoRaN had a beauty that could never be eclipsed. (Don't worry about eclipses for now, that'll come later)

So, when we use the Vocative and the following word begins with any consonant other than h,l,r and n, we have to add an "h" after that beginning consonant. The softening of "S" with the "h" is what gives us this "Hyamus" or more coarsely, the "Haymus" sound. This is also what leads to your original confusion over Dia Dhuit and the following discussion regarding its pronunciation. That "Dh" sound is a "softening" of the hard "D" and is very difficult for native english speakers to duplicate. As a result it gets butchered in a variety of ways. The other consonants change pronunciation as well:

Bh = sort of a "hw" or "wh" sound but sometimes a "v".

Ch = a sound like the German "ch" in "Achtung." Sort of like you're clearing your throat, but not that harsh.

Dh = not a "g" but not a "y"...it's sort of a blend of the two...it's hard to describe. You'll hear it on the tapes, though.

Fh = silent usually but sometimes a very faint "h' sound.

Gh = like a blend between "g" and "y" but very light on the "g". Again, use the tapes.

Mh = kind of a blend between "v" and "w". Again, you'll hear it on the tapes. Sometimes a clear "v" sound like in uimhir (ivir) meaning "number" and, as we've aleady seen in Séimhu.

Ph = "f"

Sh = we've beaten this one to death.

Th = "h"

Hope this helps, young man. You are to be commended for your interest and initiative in learning Irish. The "old guys" like me are depending on the young people like you and my daughter to keep this language alive. Hang in there, focus on school, be persistent but patient with the Irish and you'll do fine.

Adh mór ort, mo chara. (Good luck, my friend.)

James

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Jonas (213.243.178.51 - 213.243.178.51)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 04:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Please James, you can't seriously think that I mean there isn't any g-sound in any dialect. (I speak the language and have spent three summer s in the Gaeltacht. I should know what sounds it have). Obviously I meant that the pronunciation of "dh/gh" as "g" is alien to native Irish.

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I stand corrected. My initial reading of your post led me to believe that you indeed did mean there was no "g" sound. That is why I responded as I did. I know you are quite proficient at the language (and several others) and wasn't sure what you were trying to say. As I said, if you were refering to the "dh/gh" then I am in agreement. It probably is bad pronunciation.

I know I've heard it on my tapes and I've heard it in the area west of Galway. It may be bad pronunciation but it is there, none-the-less. Of course, I still consider myself a beginner. I certainly defer to your experience.

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Julia (12.91.186.212 - 12.91.186.212)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James

Thanks for the Ms. Haloran mnemonic...any port in a storm. I wish there was one for learning masculine vs. feminine. Every time I think I can get a grasp, an exception to the guidelines pops up. I think I'll be spending alot of time with the on-line worksheets that accompany the Ó Siadhal book. If I do it enough times, hopefully it will sink in.

Le meas,

Julia

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Jonas (128.214.106.104 - 128.214.106.104)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 07:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James, I'm to blame myself. I've re-read my post and there is certainly ambiguity in it. The interpretation you did is possible based on what I wrote, even though I didn't mean it in that way.

If you are a beginner you are certainly one of those advancing, I've found most of your posts very good indeed. Your explanation above of the lenited consonants was excellent.

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Cáit (192.19.195.27 - 192.19.195.27)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 08:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James,

Go raibh míle maith agat, that HaLoRaN/ MS. HaLoRaN is marvellous. Hope you don't mind if I pass it on to others!

Just one additional comment to your excellent explanation:

Bh = sort of a "hw" or "wh" sound but sometimes a "v"

This also comes down to 'broad' and 'narrow'. So Bhí - is pronounced Vee (slender)
but
Bhuel - is pronounced hWell (broad)

Same goes for MH
An Mhí - pronounced Vee (narrow)
Ba Mhaith - pronounced Wah (broad)

Le meas,

Cáit

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Jonas (213.243.178.51 - 213.243.178.51)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 09:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

That is a good rule in Connacht but of no use in any Munster Gaeltacht. There it is always "v", not "w". Of course there is a difference between broad and slender, but it is broad "v" or slender "v". Just one of the many examples of a smaller distinction in Munster Irish than in other dialects. (Scottish Gaelic not included, there the distinction is non-existent with many consonants...)

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.149 - 67.235.185.149)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James described the sound heard for dh right on the money. - As well as the others too, but that one really drove home for me. Almost like G, almost like Y. Except at the end of words, where it sounds like 'ch* (See below.) Even Ó Siadhail isn't clear in the description of it except to give Irish word examples and to give a mouth placement. I like to slow my saying of it WAY down, almost stop, then follow through on it along with frequent rewinding of the tape to try to get it right.
As for mh/bh, in Connacht it depends on which vowels they are next to. Next to A, O, or U they sound like W - "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?" KAY-CH*EE-WILL-2? (CH* takes on that hockin' up a loogie sound. Only a bit softer.)
Next to I, OR E, it sounds like V. - An bheidh tú ag theacht? VEH-2-UH-HACh*ED?
These sounds are the same at the ends of words as well.
I'm not sure I've heard it. I probably have , I'm just so new I didn't immediately recognize it. But as Jonas said, in Munster they sound like V, regardless - usually.
You can read lessons in the Munster dialect at www.irishpage.com
Scroll down to Irish Peoples' Lessons and click in. There's no sound, but they are pretty well detailed.
I hope this gets you off to a good start.
Go n-éire an t-ádh leat!
-Maidhc.

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Cháit agus A Julia, Mo Chairde:

I'm glad the HaLoRaN/MS HaLoRaN is helpful to you both. I'm afraid my college years were spent a bit too engrosed in "barley studies". I need all the mnemonics and other memory aids I can get. Feel free to share with whomever. Just be sure to include my copyright data, forward the appropriate user fee to.....never mind..I'm just glad I'm not the only one that thinks it's helpful.

I hadn't made the connection between broad and slender pronunciation of the "bh/mh" sounds. Don't know why because it makes perfect sense. I guess I was looking at them as two separate letters rather than one single sound. Thanks for the clarification.

Jonas,

One of the problems of this electronic medium is that the immediate feedback needed to clarify these "mis-communications" just doesn't exist. No hard feelings here at all.

Thanks for your kind comment regarding my "advancing" status. You would probably have other feelings if we tried to carry on a conversation! What I desperately need is time in a gaeltacht. Immersion is the key to any language. One day, God willing. One day.

Le meas,

James

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Canuck (216.241.232.218 - 216.241.232.218)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas,
I have most certainly heard "Dia dhuit" pronounced "dee-uh gwitch" by native Gaeilge speakers. However, I think we may have a case of a sound "in the ear of the beholder". Since English doesn't have the sound "dh", it may be interpreted by some native english speakers as a "gwi" sound.
Le meas,
Canuck
p.s. Jonas, I have found your threads interesting. I am wondering if Daltaí should increase the number of discussion forums on this website. Although conversation tends to deviate from Gaeilge at times, I would hate to discourage people from visiting this site. Maybe we need a discussion group where people can b.s. about anything as long as they use some Gaeilge. We need to give people the opportunity to build up their vocabulary.

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Jonas (213.243.178.51 - 213.243.178.51)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

James, everyone needs time in a Gaeltacht. I saw that you and your wife had attended the Rágús-show on Inis Mór, (so did I, perhaps we were there at the same time) so you will know that the island is very Irish speaking, especially the Western part. Anyway, it was on Inis Mór that I attempted my first conversations in Irish, and let me tell you that the result was disastrous ;-)
I had finished "Learning Irish" so I knew the language in theory, the problem was that I needed a while to figure out the correct forms. In a conversation that can be quite hard. My first evening there I spoke to a very nice native speaker who asked "An raibh tú ar X" (don't remember the place). I immediately answered "tá" instead of the correct "bhí". It could hardly be more basic ;-)

Luckily I've spent so much time that I'm able to speak now, but it is hard work. I couldn't agree more with you on the need for immersion. If you ever plan to visit either Corca Dhuibhne or Conamara I'll be happy to give you some places to go to hear Irish. (In Corca Dhuibhne two pubs can be on the opposite side of the road, in one there is only English, in the other only Irish.)

One thing more: I readily confess that I've made a big mistake above. We started with the pronuncition of "dh/gh" in Dia dhuit and I wrote that it is never like "dh/gh". That's quite right and it always goes for dh/gh in the beginning of a word. Not so if it's last... In Munster this is pronounced "g" in many words. This is what I say myself daily, so I should have been able to remember to mention it. ;-)

In all of words the last "dh/gh", if slender, is pronunced like a slender "g"
tiocfaidh /t´ukhig´/
tráigh /tra:g´/
cogaidh /kogig´/
brisfidh /b´r´is´h´ig´/
etc. etc.
There are some exception, but not many.

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Bradford (216.16.15.66 - 216.16.15.66)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas,

Not to deviate from the topic at hand :), but you've mentioned that you learned Irish via Learning Irish, and yet you speak Munster Irish?

How did this happen? Just a bunch of time spent in the Munster Gaeltachtaí?

Just curious,

Bradford

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Jonas (213.243.178.51 - 213.243.178.51)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Bradford, it's an excellent question. Most of those who have used Learning Irish have indeed ended up speaking Cois Fhairrge Irish. I used the book for a year and then I spoke 100% according to the book. Well, I didn't speak as good as the speakers on the cassettes, but the cuid réasúnta I had learned was totaly Cois Fhairrge. I then went to Ireland for the first time and lived in Galway City, with neighbours speaking both Mayo Irish and Cois Fhairrge Irish. I made many trips to Cois Fhairrge and Na h-Oileáin Árann so the language I began to speak was most definitely Cois Fhairrge, just as in Learning Irish.

I wanted to read some Irish as well, and I bought the famous book "An t-Oileánach". Today I think of it's Irish as natural but back then I wasn't used to it at all. On the first page I couldn't understand the word "tigh" (which I always use since many years) because I had learned "teach". Lots of other examples, of course. At the end of my stay I attended my only Irish course, one week in Baile an Fheirtéaraigh. I fell in love both with the place, with the people and with the dialect they spoke. Still, it sounded strange to me. The first day I heard a woman talking about her "clann". In the Irish I knew, "clann" is of course /kla:N/ but in Munster Irish /klaun/. The result was that I first thought she talked about a clown. ;-) I was annoyed to find she couldn't pronounce "seo" and "sin" "properly", I had no idea about the Munster distinction between "seo-so" and "sin-san" at that time. However, this was my first time surrounded by Irish (even though I had used it a lot in Galway) for more than a couple of days, so I picked up many Munster forms. For a while I must have spoken a particularly unpleasant mix of Corca Dhuibhne and Cois Fhairrge Irish. The deceisice factor was that I made an excellent friend in Corca Dhuibhne, as good a friend as anyone could wish for, and I've stayed in contact with him ever since. He is an excellent speaker and he has always pointed out both my errors and my "dialectal mix". Some might find that irritating, but I never did. He always did it in a very friendly way. I've made other friends in the area as well, and even though they've never corrected me their way of speaking has influenced me. I'd say that after my second summer in Corca Dhuibhne my "transition" to Munster Irish was complete. I still know how to speak Cois Fhairrge Irish and I do use it when in Connacht, but otherwise I stick to Corce Dhuibhne Irish. In fact, I've come to like Corca Dhuibhne and it's people so much that I've made every effort to secure that I speak as much like them as I can ;-) The major factor is of course the influence of my friends, but I have also used the old "Teach Yourself Irish" by Dillon. It is in Munster Irish, actually Cork Irish but the difference is minute.

I hope that is an answer to your question. Normally I would have ended up with Cois Fhairrge Irish, but the frienship of the people of Corca Dhuibhne changed it. If it weren't for them my Irish (whatever dialect) would be much much worse. They are to thank for all that I've learned, and definitely not to blame for the mistakes I make. No learner of Irish, or indeed any visitor to Ireland, could ask for truer friends.

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Alex McGrath (64.12.96.234 - 64.12.96.234)
Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OH MY GODS! You have managed to fill this thing with TONS of entries in days!!

I thank you for the help on those things buts it Overwhelming right now, and I will definately go back and into it later.

TO you Dawn, I dont mean its EASIER....that is no way true! I am talking about the fact that I memorized a lot of words more quickly than spanish...

And then to you James, I laugh at what you said.
People like ME and your daughter?! LOL I think I am hardly doing anything special by trying to learn this language. TO be completely truthfl its a waste to me to learn it...but I still want to learn it. And to all of you I thank you again for the help and explanations and such(and book recomendations)

oh an my last name would be pronounced

McGrath

(Mick-Graah)?

or am I mistaken

Also is there an irish equivelancy to my first name?

~lex~

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Dawn (66.19.56.47 - 66.19.56.47)
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 01:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara,

Is your full name Alexander? If so, you could use Alastar or Alsander. I believe there are several variations; but, not being a native myself, I won't venture to recommend any others.

If you're looking for an authentic Irish name that has the same meaning as your name, maybe someone else can help with that too.

I think you have your last name right.

Next question? We'll keep it simple, ok?
Dawn

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Alex McGrath (205.188.209.12 - 205.188.209.12)
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL! I think someones enjoying there little teacherly job here. Dawn where in chicago you from? anyhow thanks for that assistance!

and yes its Alexander

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Dawn (66.19.56.165 - 66.19.56.165)
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am "from" Southern Illinois, Alex, but I live in the Chicago area now.

Yes, you're quite right. I love being able to answer questions. I just wish I had more answers!


So...............do you have any more questions? :)

Dawn

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Alex McGrath (67.167.104.192 - 67.167.104.192)
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 09:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

lol not now...


Someone likes feeling special about answering questions ;-) how far south? lol we aint talking about irish...might as well talk about something LOL


And here I GOT ONE!


How many Dialects to Irish are there?

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Dawn (66.19.56.226 - 66.19.56.226)
Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Way south. :-)

There are three main dialects. They are the dialects of Ulster (in the North), Connaught (in the West), and Munster (in the South). Of course, an Irishman could distinguish between smaller localities, just as we could here in our own State. You can learn a lot about the differences in pronunciation and grammar by using the search engine on this site. But then, as a beginner, you might find it a little overwhelming. I certainly do. Best to pick one and try to stick with it.

Dawn

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Alex (64.12.96.234 - 64.12.96.234)
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 02:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

uhm I dont really know...I think I will kind of learn it all as one....like the three words for this and that ....like Dog, kanine...so on


anyhow

Steven, tom, Joseph=?

and how do you pronounce my first name in gaelic?

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Jonas (213.243.191.125 - 213.243.191.125)
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 08:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, the differences between the three dialects is not so much in the words as it is in pronunciation (and grammar to some extent). A text might well look almost indetical in all three dialects but it would sound very different indeed between, say, Corca Dhuibhne and Gaoth Dobhar. There are litterally about a hundred different pronunciation rules differing the dialects. At least thirty to forty of these are really crucial.

(Of course there are many words that are different in the dialects, but these are easier to learn than the differing pronunciation and grammar)

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Alex (205.188.209.12 - 205.188.209.12)
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Can you say

Conas tá cat?

or like

Conas tá sé/sí/name here?

and all I can say to that whole dialect thing is UH-OH!

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Larry (217.42.55.128 - 217.42.55.128)
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mare, a chara,

Is é do bheatha ar ais, mo chara.

Le meas,

Larry.

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Larry (217.42.55.128 - 217.42.55.128)
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara,

If you ask "conas tá cat?" you're asking how "a" cat is. If you want to ask how "the" cat is, you'd ask "conas tá an cat?".

To ask how somebody is, yes, you can ask "conas tá sí?" or replace "sí" with a person's name.

Le meas,

Larry.

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Dawn (66.19.56.79 - 66.19.56.79)
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Don't worry too much about the number of dialects, Alex. Many of those differences in pronunciation are not very significant, and you don't have to learn every one in order to understand them all. Just think of the numerous dialects we have here in the States, and yet most of us can understand each other without much difficulty, or maybe with a little effort. Of course, there are always those people who are completely incomprehensible no matter how hard you listen...........:)

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.79 - 66.19.56.79)
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oops. I said dialects, but I meant pronunciations.

Sorry!

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Alex McGrath (205.188.209.12 - 205.188.209.12)
Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL

an does this mean of/of the?

#1 Dalta is this student? not Daltaí.

And to your Q dawn I know what you mean, but this is ME. Some different things might make sense to us...but in a language I am just now learning and not growing up in...It wont be so easy.

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Dawn (66.19.56.38 - 66.19.56.38)
Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

an dalta - the student

na daltaí - the students (an changes to na in the plural)

na can also mean "of the" as in daltaí na Gaeilge - students of (the) Irish language

No, it's not easy, and it takes some practice, but don't underestimate your own ability. The ear and the tongue are incredibly complex, and they can pick up on minute variations before we even know we've learned them.

Dawn

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alex (205.188.209.12 - 205.188.209.12)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

lol well thank you for this dawn!

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Dawn (66.19.56.129 - 66.19.56.129)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 09:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you. - Go raibh maith agat. (goh rehv MAH ha-GUHT) The th on the end of maith is normally silent, but since it comes between two vowel sounds here, it is pronounced as an h to keep the sentence flowing.

You're welcome. - Tá fáilte romhat. (tah FAHL-chuh roht)

Dawn

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alex (205.188.209.12 - 205.188.209.12)
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

ok you kind of confuysed be but ok


An bhfuil sé óg?

an bfhuil sé maith?

are these right? Is he/it young....is he good or oK?


Whats the english equivelancy to
Conas:
Maith:
Leish:
Fein:
An:
Bfuil:
go:
???

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Dawn (66.19.56.165 - 66.19.56.165)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 03:10 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, you have it right.

conas (KAH-nuhs)- how

maith (mah)- good

leis (lesh): This word is a form of the word "le" which means "with". It is one of several words in Irish which are called prepositional pronouns because they are a preposition (with) and a pronoun (me, you, him, etc.) combined into one word, rather than two as in English. The forms for "le" are as follows:
liom - with me
leat - with you (singular)
leis - with him, with it (masculine)
léi - with her, with it (feminine)
linn - with us
libh - with you (plural)
leo - with them
If you learn these, it will help you to learn other prepositional pronouns, because they more or less follow a pattern.

féin (fayn)-
1. after a pronoun it means "self" Ex: mé féin (myself)
2. after a noun it means "own" Ex: mo theach féin (my own house)

an (uhn)-
1. "the" Ex: an teach (the house)
2. Another use of this word is to place it before a verb to turn a statement into a question. Ex:
Tagann sé. (He comes.)
An dtagann sé? (Does he come?)

bhfuil (wil)- a form of the word bí (to be)
It replaces tá in a question.Ex:
Tá sé deacair. (It is difficult.)
An bhfuil sé deacair? (Is it difficult?) Notice the use of "an" again here.

go (guh)- The smallest words are the most complicated, because they often have several usages. Here are a few for "go".

1. It changes an adjective into an adverb.
(adj.) maith - good
(adv.) go maith - well

2. "to, till, until" Ex: dul go Meiriceá - to go to America

3. I think it can also be translated as "may". Go raibh maith agat (thank you) literally means "may good be at you." Agat means "at you", another prepositional pronoun!

Now, that's not too much, is it? :)

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.179 - 66.19.56.179)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just an added note:

The sound of the "o" in Conas is not really an "ah" sound, but something between "ah" and "uh". I was trying to keep the pronunciation as simple as possible for you; but as I was thinking about it this morning, the pronunciation I gave you might sound a little awkward if taken literally.

Oh yeah, and don't be afraid of those prepositional pronouns. Personally, I think they're really cool!

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Alex McGrath (64.12.96.234 - 64.12.96.234)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá mé go maith leish--->The state I am in is well with it[it being the person your responding to's wellness/state of wellness](leis) ??


Sorry I tend to overanalyze these things...

pluralizing...

Can you say like

fearaí, beanaí, cataí, cailínaí so forth?

Im trying to recognize a pattern.

I was rushing through seventh period today to get home to ask all my Qs about gaeilge before I forgot...lol


féin (fayn)-
1. after a pronoun it means "self" Ex: mé féin (myself)
2. after a noun it means "own" Ex: mo theach féin (my own house)

doesnt make sense when you say: "Tá mé go maith leish, agus conas tá tú féin?

bhfuil sé deacair? can I say JUST this as in "it will be difficult" or tá sé deacair....but this is like saying it IS diffcult..

2. "to, till, until" Ex: dul go Meiriceá - to go to America can you give a LITERAL translation because its not making sense...its like UNTIL america???

This is gonna sound rude and ungrateful...but dont go so into depth for me...I am not that far in yet that it will help me TONS...you have no need to spend a lot of time on my answers...but I am still eternally grateful for this!

Go raibh maith agat, a Dawn

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Alex McGrath (64.12.96.234 - 64.12.96.234)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá maith an

I know this is not making sense AT ALL

but would it be pronounced (taw mah-ha an)

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Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá mé go maith leis -- I'm fine with that.

Pluralizing -- No. Fear - fir, bean - mrá -- these two are irregular. Cat - cata, cailín - cailíní -- these two are regular.

Tá mé go msith, agus conas tá tu fein?

An bhfuil sé deacair? Is it difficult?
Tá sé deacair. It is difficult.

An mbeidh sé deacair? Will it be difficult?
Beidh sé deacair. It will be difficult.

An raibh sé deacair? Was it difficult?
Bhí sé deacair. It was difficult.

Tá mé ag dul go Meiriceá. I am going to America.

--Al Evans

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Dawn (66.19.56.114 - 66.19.56.114)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara,

I'd like to get back to you, but I don't have enough time at the moment. I don't think you're rude at all. In fact, I expected you to come back with more questions. That's fine. It means you are trying to think things through logically. Oh, and you needn't apologize for being analytical. I have been chastized myself for spending too much time on details, so I have no problem with it! I tried to keep my answers as simple as possible while still being thorough; however, Irish is not simple, and so answering questions about it rarely is either.


Al gave you some good was, is, will be examples there. He has one typo though - the plural for bean is mná.

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.114 - 66.19.56.114)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I should talk about typos.............of course I meant "chastised".

:)

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Alex (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

***1)Tá maith an

I know this is not making sense AT ALL

but would it be pronounced (taw mah-ha an)

pronunciation?
***2)And then my name:
Alexander
Michael
Steven
Joseph
McGrath
Thomas


and whomever finds the kindness to address this... please include pronunciations

***3) Pluralizing -- No. Fear - fir, bean - mrá -- these two are irregular. Cat - cata, cailín - cailíní -- these two are regular.

Tá mé go msith, agus conas tá tu fein?

An bhfuil sé deacair? Is it difficult?
Tá sé deacair. It is difficult.

An mbeidh sé deacair? Will it be difficult?
Beidh sé deacair. It will be difficult.

An raibh sé deacair? Was it difficult?
Bhí sé deacair. It was difficult.

Tá mé ag dul go Meiriceá. I am going to America.

Can you put some pronunciations in here????

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Dawn (66.19.56.114 - 66.19.56.114)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ok........

1. There are many ways to form the plural. I suggest you find a dictionary or grammar book with good noun charts in it (You can find verb charts in the grammar section of this site). You're going to need them before long anyway.

Yes, I keep a running list of all my questions. I still haven't gotten to some I had at the very beginning!

2. Tá mé go maith leish, agus conas tá tú féin?
Can you tell me in English exactly what you are trying to say here?

3. dul go Meiriceá

dul - to go
go - to
Meiriceá - America

See, it's very simple really. I guess you could think of it as "go until (I reach) America", but there is no need, since "go to America" works just fine.

Sorry about the prepositional pronoun bit. They're one of my favorite parts of Irish grammar. :) When you are ready for them, there are charts for them also in the grammar section.

Hope this clears things up for you Alex,
Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.114 - 66.19.56.114)
Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Haha.........this happens to me all the time.

Alex, I'll be back again after 11:00 to reply.

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Dawn (66.19.56.114 - 66.19.56.114)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 01:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post

1. Tá maith an.

Probably would be more like tah MAH huhn; but, as you said, it doesn't make sense. I wrote the pronunciaiton of "an" as "uhn", and "go" as "guh" because Irish vowels, like English vowels, are not always pronounced distinctly. If you have studied Spanish, then you probably were told in class that every vowel in that language is pronounced clearly. However, English and Irish have what is called the schwa sound. It is an indistinct sound, like the "a" in "about" or "medal". So I use "uh" because it's as close as I can get.

Are you wanting Irish equivalents for those names? Try http://www.namenerds.com/irish/trans.html
They have pronunciations too.

fear - far (short a)

fir - fihr

bean - ban

mná - mnah

cat - kat (same)

cata - KAT-uh

cailín - kal-een

cailíní - kal-een-ee

Tá mé go maith, agus conas tá tú féin? I am well, and how are you? (tú féin = yourself) tah may guh MAH, AH-guhs KUH-nuhs tah too FAYN?

An bhfuil sé deacair? Is it difficult? uhn wihl shay DAK-er?
Tá sé deacair. It is difficult. tah shay DAK-er.

An mbeidh sé deacair? Will it be difficult? uhn may shay DAK-er?
Beidh sé deacair. It will be difficult. bay shay DAK-er.

An raibh sé deacair? Was it difficult? uhn rehv shay DAK-er?
Bhí sé deacair. It was difficult. vee shay DAK-er.

Tá mé ag dul go Meiriceá. I am going to America. tah may uhg dool goh MEH-rih-kyah


Of course these are only approximate pronunciations, but I think you would be understood ok.


Alex, have you ever watched Out of Ireland? It's an Irish news and entertainment program on channel 20. It comes on Wednesday nights at 10:30.

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.190 - 66.19.56.190)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 09:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

One correction:

deacair - DYAK-er

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Jonas (213.243.176.35 - 213.243.176.35)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

and please please please!!!! ;-)

English "cat" and Irish "cat" are not pronounced in the same way. No, nay, never...
The English sound found in "cat" is more or less missing from Irish. (as a short vowel, it is found as a long vowel)

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.252 - 67.235.185.252)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

This one gets me too. Ó Siadhail gives in his fold-out table of sounds 'ae:' as in the Irish word "fear" as being somewhat longer than the English word "plaid".
He also gives 'a:' as in the Irish word "hata" as being somewhat longer than the English word "pan" and somewhat longer than the French word "patte".
Where I come from, pan, plaid, and patte all have the same vowel sound. - As well as "cat". Aaarrrggghhhh.

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Alex (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL thank you all so much for this...I am a bit overwhelmed with information right now...

and Dawn I shall be SURE to check that show out!

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Dawn (66.19.56.190 - 66.19.56.190)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 06:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Okay, now that I've finished screaming............

I just complained about this on another thread. You can't trust the pronunciation someone gives you unless you are living within fifty miles of them, and not always then (sorry Alex!).

I knew you would comment on that one, Jonas. It didn't sound right to me either, but I'll explain my confusion on this matter.

First of all, my dictionary says the short a (which it represents as "a") finds the nearest English equivalent in the word "bat". I assumed it meant this word as it is pronounced by an Englishman; but after what you said Jonas, I thought perhaps they meant the Irish English way of pronouncing bat. BUT, then I found this in TYI: "a - depending on the neighboring consonants, either as in English tap or in English top, but with the lips unrounded" Now, TYI may also be meaning the Irish English pronunciation of those words, but it does use an Englishwoman on the tapes to introduce each lesson.


Secondly, there HAS to be the ae sound in Irish, because I hear it on the tapes! It is the sound of "ea" as in bean, teacht, deacair, etc. TYI says "ea - a in hat, e.g. bean (woman) sounds rather like English ban" See, there's that reference to the English short a again.

So what's what? English short a or Irish English short a or both?

Dawn

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Jonas (213.243.176.35 - 213.243.176.35)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Correct observation. There is a difference between the vowel in "bean" and that in "cat" but the difference is small enough to be neglected. In Munster, a short "a" is indeed pronounced as the "a" in "cat" when it joins a slender consonant, as in
-bean, meas, ait etc.

I guess I shouldn't have that there is no short [ae]. It's true that neither Wagner nor Ó Cuív use [ae] in Munster and that the sound is somewhat different from English "cAt", "bAn", However, the difference is so slight that for our purposes it might be ignored without the world coming to an end ;-) But that does not go for words like Irish "cat" In "cat", there is no slender consonant.

Oh, and by the way, Irish wouldn't be Irish if I wouldn't have to say the following.

1. The rule given above (short ae with slender consonants) holds sometimes, sometimes not. Stick to it and you will be right much more often than you are wrong. But once again (the 1845th time), that does not include "a" when not joined by a slender consonant.

2. If anyone think that it's ok in Corca Dhuibhne Irish to use a long [ae:] when "á" joins a slender consonant, then the ghost of Tomás Ó Criomhtháin will haunt you in your sleeps ;-)

3. Everything I've written above is dialect-specific, there is few phenomenas with such wide diversity as the pronunciation of a and á.

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Dawn (66.19.56.190 - 66.19.56.190)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I feel much better now (although I think the dictionary should have been clearer).

Thanks.

Alex, here are the corrections:

cat - KAHT

cata - KAHT-uh

cailín - kahl-een

cailíní - kahl-een-ee

Yes, definitely an improvement. :)

Dawn

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Juila (12.91.158.65 - 12.91.158.65)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 08:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hey Alex,

Just to lighten up the text, instead of LOL, from now on put GOA= Gáir Os Ard

Gáir = verbal noun of Gáire(to laugh)=laughing

Os Ard = out loud.

Ádh mór ort!

Julia

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Alex McGrath (64.12.96.234 - 64.12.96.234)
Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

GOA! Itll take some getting used to but I think I can do it...

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Alex (64.12.96.234 - 64.12.96.234)
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

OK well I got a Q


would one say

Dalta an/na Gaeilge?

Becuase dalta-singular

but it should be like OF THE with gaeilge...

GOA

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Dawn (66.19.56.190 - 66.19.56.190)
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 01:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This is a very good question, Alex. You made me do my homework for this one (which is as good for me as it is for you!)

dalta na Gaeilge - student of the Irish language
daltaí na Gaeilge - students of the Irish language

In the phrase "dalta na Gaeilge" the "na" has a different usage than being the plural form of "an". It is actually the gentive form of "an" (which in this case corresponds to "of the" in English). Dalta being singular does not change the "na" to "an". The reason is because the "na" is modifying the word "Gaeilge" and so is not affected by the word "dalta" at all. Do you see? "Of the" goes with "Irish language". We're trying to say "of the Irish language" not "of the student".

An important point:

"na" is used to mean "of the" in front of feminine nouns like Gaeilge, but.......

"an" in used in front of masculine nouns like halla (hall) For example: bun an halla - end of the hall

I went over this a hundred times, so I hope I got it right. And I hope it makes sense to you!

There is a website for the Irish program I told you about.
http://www.outofirelandtv.com

Dawn

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Alex (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK so now Irish does do gener? So I say

an singular; OF THE for masculine(plural or not)

na plural; OF THE for feminine(plural or not)

How do I distinguish gender?

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Jonas (213.243.191.58 - 213.243.191.58)
Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 07:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, that's not quite wrong but neither is it the whole truth.

1. "an" genitiv for masculine singular, it lenitates the following noun and adds t- to a noun beginning with "s".

-an bád (the boat) -> an bháid (the boat's)
-an cat (the cat) -> an chait (the cat's)
-an fear (the man) -> an fhir (the man's)
-an gleann (the valley) -> an ghleanna (the valley's
-an leabhar (the book) -> an leabhair (the book's)
-an bosca (the box) -> an bhosca (the box's)
-an t-oileán (the island) -> an oileáin (the island's=
-an sagart (the priest) -> an t-sagairt (the priests)

2. "na" is the genitive article for the feminine singular, it does not lenitate but adds "h-" to words beginning with a vowel.
-an tír (the country) -> na tíre (the country's)
-an chloch (the stone) -> na cloiche(the stone's)
-an ghrian (the sun) -> na gréine (the sun's)
-an chearc (the hen) -> na circe (the hen's)
-an bhean (the woman) -> na mná (the woman's)
-an áit (the place) -> na h-áite (the place's)

3. "na" is also the genitiv article for the plural (both masculine and feminine), but in the plural it eclipses consonants and add "n-" to words beginning in a vowel
-na báid (the boats) -> na mbád (the boats')
-na clocha (the stones) -> na gcloch (the stones')
-na cait (the cats) -> na gcat (the cats')
-na mná (the women) -> na mban* (the women's)

* "ban" is the genitive plural; this is not a misspelling of "bean".

That's the article. Then the question of gender... Somel languages, like Russian, Croatian, Polish and Arabic are nice to learners and have very simple rules for determining genders. English, Finnish and Estonian are even nicer by totally skipping the gender issue. Spanish is a bit less nice, although it is still possible to determine gender quite easily in Spanish. German, Swedish, Irish and Welsh are the worst ;-)

I'm afraid you'll just have to learn it word by word, there aren't any simple rule with which to go. True, there are a number of rules that let you determine the gender of some nouns, but then you have to learn all those rules first, and there will still be loads of words not fitting into the pattern.

Don't worry to much about it, you will get the genders right eventually. It comes with practice, I assure you.

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Larry (217.42.54.25 - 217.42.54.25)
Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara,

A quick little tip to expand on what Jonas has said. I may be repeating what somebody has already told you but I haven't had time to scroll through the previous posts in this thread. If that's the case then I apologise as I don't want to confuse you.

When you learn a new noun, such as 'bean' (woman) for example, learn it with the article 'an' (the), so that you can see straight away that 'bean' is a feminime noun because the article causes lenition - an bhean (the woman).

Le meas,

Larry.

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Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

woh you both COMPLETELY confused me...I will get in time I guess what you said...I dont know...it just REALLY confused me

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Larry (217.42.54.21 - 217.42.54.21)
Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara,

Okay. I'm very sorry if I've fudged the issue and confused you. I was trying to avoid that. Forgive me?

What I was trying to explain is that you can determine the gender of a noun by looking at what happens to the noun when it follows what is known as the Definate Article an, equivalent to the English word the.

So if you take the word 'bean' (woman) as an example you can see that it's a feminine noun because it gains an 'h' when it follows the definate article. An bhean (the woman). Because that change happens with a feminine noun and not a masculine noun, you can straight away determine the gender.

Has that explained it any better?

Le meas,

Larry.

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alex (64.12.96.234 - 64.12.96.234)
Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A little bit. But this is for a bit more of an advanced student I think....I barely know anything right now Thanks though and you need not ask forgiveness?

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Dawn (66.19.56.218 - 66.19.56.218)
Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara,

Perhaps it is better to come back to the genitive (of the) after you have mastered the nominative (simply "the"). The chart below is one I posted on another thread. You can study the forms of masculine and feminine nouns along with their corresponding article (the) and an adjective (in this case "mór" which means "big"). The first word in each group is singular, and the second is plural.

Feminine

1. noun with initial consonant - bileog (leaflet)

an bhileog mhór / na bileoga móra


2. noun with initial vowel - oifig (office)

an oifig mhór / na hoifigí móra


Masculine

1. noun with initial consonant - rang (class)

an rang mór / na ranganna móra


2. noun with initial vowel - árasán (flat, apartment)

an t-árasán mór / na hárasáin mhóra


3. initial consonant with slender plural -bád (boat)
an bád mór / na báid mhóra


These are some GENERAL rules for determining masc. and fem. nouns:

Endings of a noun with two or more syllables:

Masculine

-án
-ín
-úr
-ún
-ús
-éad
-éal
-éar
-éir
-óir
-eoir
-úir


(endings with short vowels, also masc.)

-as
-ar
-ad
-an
-adh


Feminine

-óg
-eog
-éis
-ís
-cht
-áil


If you need more help with this, just let me know. :)

Dawn

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Alex McGrath (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thanks dawn

Your so nice with this


I will read it all tomorow though...I had a day of work and it was HORRIBLE! GOA! This is supppose to be my reward for getting good crades......having to do 20 hours of community service :(

lol Talk to you soon

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Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Can you say?

"An siopa na daltaí na gaeilge..." (Uhn shee-oh-puh nuh dahl-tee nuh Gay-ill-gay)

Now on my pronunciations I overdid it...like the shee-oh are merged...its aproximate but the focuse is whether that is correct or not.

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Aljandro (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Also can you say

"Tá an siopa na daltaí na gaeilge mόr" meaning the shop of the Daltaí na Gaeilge or maybe even meaning like the store for people learning irish...like a teach yourself store of Irish books is big

LOL you got the point

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.229 - 67.235.185.229)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An siopa na nDaltaí na Gaeillge.
Daltaí is plural.
Uh-SHIP-uh-na-NAHL-tee-na-GAYL-gyeh*.
'Io' in the middle of the word is sometimes pronounced as 'ee' by some speakers - but is mostly as 'i' as in 'it'. And the 'ge' at the end of the word, I've heard described as that you go to say "gyeh", but don't really follow through the 'yeh', stopping just short.
And if you take notice, the feminine list which Dawn gave is much shorter. Memorize it - and, usually, all of the others will be masculine.
Slán,
-Maidhc.

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Jonas (213.243.174.29 - 213.243.174.29)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Nope, you can't say any of the alternatives given above. Irish only allow one definite noun in the genitive construction.

dath an dorais = the colour of the door
dath dorais an tí = the colour of the house's door
dath dorais tí an athar = the colour of the father's house's door
dath dorais tí athar Shéamuis = the colour of Séamus's father's house's door.

I won't give the correct form just yet, perhaps you would like to work it out. Great practice ;-)
Of course I'll provide in case no-one comes up with it.

By the way, for the 2.392nd time. AVOID USING ENGLISH SPELLING FOR IRISH PRONUNCIATION!!! Sorry for being so tedious ;-)
(This is something I come back to over and over because I think it is fundamentally important.)
In the worst case, the pronunciation will be absolutely wrong, in the best case it will sound as English in Irish words. I know that many learners don't want to learn IPA (though I've never managed to figure out why, it takes 15-30 minutes) but it's the only way to represent Irish pronunciation (short of live speakers or Audio files)

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Jonas (213.243.174.29 - 213.243.174.29)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry for the bad English above, I should have read through it.

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Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK well that COMPLETELY confused me...I wonder is this really worth it? It is so confusing and I have no one here to help me like with spanish....

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Jonas (213.243.174.29 - 213.243.174.29)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 03:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Of course it's worth it, Alex! And it's great fun too. I know how you feel, when I took up Irish no-one of my friends had even heard about the language, no library or bookstore carried any books in Irish. It was really hard, but it does get easier.

I understand that you are feeling confused, because the questions you have asked have been about rather complicated items. If you haven't encountered them before they are bound to be hard. May I ask what book you are using and how far you have progressed? It would be helpful to know that when answering in order not to get into unnecessary advanced explanations too early.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll do fine!

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.17 - 67.235.185.17)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK. This was an easy and simple mistake.
If there happened to be a group of students who were studying the Irish language and 'they' owned a shop, then what I gave above would be correct. However "Daltaí na Gaeilge" is a SINGULAR organization. There, it should've been "An siopa Dhaltaí na Gaeilge".
-Maidhc.

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Dawn (66.19.56.209 - 66.19.56.209)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, mo chara,

This is why I told you it's better to stay away from the genitive for now! The entire sequence is even more than I know yet.

You're doing GREAT, but you're trying too much too soon. Because Irish is complicated, that is a common mistake for beginners. When I first started (and I didn't have any help either), I thought after studying Japanese, learning Irish would be a snap. What do you think I found? Irish is harder! I gave up on it two or three times before I finally got past the first couple lessons. You have two advantages over me.
1. You're starting out with help from the beginning. 2. You're younger, which means you have a quicker and more flexible mind. You are obviously a very smart young man. The question is not whether or not you CAN do this, but rather, how COMMITTED you are to doing it. How much does it mean to you?

You can't learn a language of this complexity simply by visiting a website. So before you give up, PLEASE get yourself a book with some tapes so you can learn the sounds. It is important that you start to associate Irish sounds with Irish spelling. There are many sounds which are not very difficult but are simply impossible to express using English spelling because we don't use those sounds. In the meantime, you can listen to the recordings on this site or go to http://www.rnag.ie and listen to the radio links there, just to get a feel for the sounds and rhythms of the language.

I'd be sorry to see you quit so soon. I really believe you are capable of doing this, but it's your decision - your time, your effort, your heart's desire.

There are two things that are true of any language that I have studied:

1. Perseverance is the key, and

2. Remember, the smallest words are always the hardest!

Keep up the good work, my friend, because it's worth it!

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.209 - 66.19.56.209)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas,

I understand what you're saying, but I think Alex did some fine guesswork at the pronunciation, English spelling or not. We all have to start from what we already know.

I think I sense another dialect question developing.........but I have to use some English spelling to ask it (since my computer doesn't do IPA). Maidhc gave the pronunciation for "siopa" as "SHIP-uh", which is the same as what's in my dictionary; but on the TYI tapes (don't groan now :) ), the word is pronounced more like "SHOPE-uh". Is it Munster?

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Alex (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thats how I invisioned it. Like the i is an í(ee) and then you mirge it into one sound with an O. its hard for me to explain but like both long sounds and merged as one in one sound. Or more simply SHOPE lol...I think you got my point. Also I am going to be persistant, I will balance it with my spanish. And I know I am getting books...asking for some this christmas...Im to cheap AND poor to buy them on my own hehe

And I also must say I am amazed you think I am a smart young man (blushes) and I must say I dont knwo where you got such an idea anyhow lol

Whats IPA and TYI??

and I doubt myself because these sounds are hard on my tongue, and Irish is more complicated than spanish so when I speak spanish I can only imagine how hard Irish will be


as to how far I am...

http://www.irishpage.com/irishpeople/

I am on lesson 2 kind of with this site...

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Alex (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

WOOPS! I forgot something

In

An siopa na ndaltaí na gaeilge.

an siopa(NO NA?) Dhaltaí na gaeilge....that jsut WOH CONFUSED ME

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Dawn (66.19.56.209 - 66.19.56.209)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 02:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex,

Glad you're sticking with it.

I know what you're trying to say about the i and o being "merged". What you described is called a "diphthongal glide". This is the Random House dictionary definition: "an unsegmentable, gliding speech sound varying continuously in phonetic quality but held to be a single sound or phoneme as the oi-sound of toy or boil"

I say you are smart because, if you weren't, you would not express yourself as well as you do or ask such good questions. You wouldn't be able to draw logical conclusions from what you have already learned; and, instead of persevering, you would give up as soon as it got a little tough.

TYI is an acronym for Teach Yourself Irish which is the program I'm using.

IPA is the acronym for the International Phonetic Alphabet, "the set of symbols devised by the International Phonetic Association to provide a consistent and universally understood system for transcribing the speech sounds of any language" (RH dict.). It's very usful to learn. You can use it to describe sounds to people without worrying that they might misunderstand you because they have a different accent or way of reading letters.
At this link you can see how American English sounds are written in IPA and listen to them as well. http://antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm
At this site, you can download IPA audio files for several languages (I don't know if the Irish is Gaeilge or just Irish English). http://arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/cassettes.html

It's good that you are going through lessons. It's important (and easier) to learn things in proper order.

Talk to you later.

Go Cubs! :)

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.209 - 66.19.56.209)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 02:19 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Okay, I might as well take a stab at this too..............

the shop of the students of Irish

siopa na daltaí Ghaeilge

or

siopa daltaí na Gaeilge

???

Alex, I hope you feel better knowing you aren't the only one totally confused!

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.138 - 66.19.56.138)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 03:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Okay, no, I think I've got it now............

siopa daltaí na Ghaeilge

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Jonas (213.243.177.32 - 213.243.177.32)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 04:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dawn, that's perfect ;-) Well, skip the "h" you had in Gaeilge, but I guess that's just a typo.
Madhc, there's no "an" before "siopa", regardless of whether we view "Daltaí na Gaeilge" as an entity or not. There can be only one definite noun in the genitive.

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Dawn (66.19.56.64 - 66.19.56.64)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In that case Jonas, my second answer was correct, right?

No, the "h" in the third answer was not a typo. In my second guess, I was trying to follow your pattern. In my third guess, I was trying to follow a pattern I saw on the back of my dictionary: "Treoir Fhoghraíochta don Ghaeilge"

I still have no idea what the difference is, I'm just copying. :)

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Jonas (213.243.177.32 - 213.243.177.32)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The difference is, of course, monumental ;-)
No, not really, but still a very important one.

In "Daltaí na Gaeilge", Gaeilge is in the genitive. It's a feminine noun and the feminine article is "na". It never lenitates.

In "don Ghaeilge", Gaeilge is in the prepositional case (the dative) since it follows the preposition "do" (don = do an). Fortunately for learners, Irish almost never use the prepositional case these days. In some phrases, yes, and most native speakers would use it occasionaly. Still, they would disregard it most of the times and that's what I'd recommend every learner to do untill they can speak quite fluent Irish. In Scottish Gaelic you would not escape so easily, the prepositional forms remains alive there. As it does in German, Icelandic, Russian and all the other Slavic languages except Bulgarian and Macedonian.

So that's the difference, genitive versus dative.

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Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK Well #1 Dawn I must say I am sorry to hear that....Youve got an illness, saying go cubs like that...you can get help....LMAO


anyhow Whoever knows how can you PLEASE explain what was my Q???

Tell me more about this TYI Dawn?

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Jonas (213.243.177.32 - 213.243.177.32)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, I hope you don't mind that I comment briefly upon this question that is intended for Dawn. And Dawn, I hope you don't find it incorrect that I do. I look forward to hearing your opinion!

TYI, Teach Yourself Irish, is a beginners course in Irish. According to some, it's a good course. According to others, it's bad. Quite simple ;-)
I'd position myself somewhere in between, I don't think it's bad but neither would I rank it amongst the best courses in Irish.

TYI has been discussed quite extensively here just a month ago. This is a comment I wrote to back then about it

" it is a far cry from Learning Irish. I speak rather fluent Irish myself and have been involved in Irish circles from years and I've never met anyone being able to speak Irish because of Teach Yourself Irish while I know many speakers of Irish who are almost fluent today and got their foundation from Learning Irish.

I agree that it's a flaw in Learning Irish that you don't learn such a basic phrase as Dia dhuit until you've been studying quite a long time. Another, more serious, flaw is that many learnes have the impression that the dialect of Learning Irish - Cois Fhairrge - is THE correct form of Irish.

Having said that I still rank Learning Irish much higher than any other Irish course book - and I've both read and reviewed them all. Most other books are barely anything more than phrase-books with just a hint of grammar. It makes it very easy in the beginning and you do learn some useful phrases but this method will never enable you to begin to form your own sentences - in other words, you won't be able to hold any longer conversations in Irish. Teach Yourself is not just a phrase-book and it is very easy to learn from - but that easiness comes at the expense of a thorough understanding of Irish grammar.

To sum up, most books are easier to get through than Learning Irish just like it's easier to climb a low hill than a high mountain. The view will be less inspiring, though...

Still, most of this is a matter of opinion. When I started to learn Irish I wanted to spend long periods in Irish-speaking areas without having to resort to English. Thanks to Learning Irish I succeeded, I've lived and worked for three summers in 100% Irish-speaking areas in the west of Ireland and I've only spoken Irish. I speak Irish only with all my friends there. Of course I've had to speak and practice to be able to communicate in Irish, but I would never have got that far without Learning Irish. On the other hand, for those who are interested in being able to say some nice phrases, commenting on the wheather or asking for the way, and then switch back to English muddling through Learning Irish would be overdoing do it. "

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Alex (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 03:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK I know this is going to sound odd.

but someone who has a good grasping on the Irish pronuncitaion, would you maybe mind swapping some wav files in emails to test my pronuncitation? Unless there is a program I can get someone would use with me. Id prefer that, since its close to the phone and more instantaneous help

just curious...lol

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Seosamh (68.161.55.242 - 68.161.55.242)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas's comment about "just a hint of grammar" is only a slight exaggeration. Except for the old, out-of-print Teach Yourself Irish, no textbook gives a comprehensive introduction to the grammar of the language even if a few go so far as to introduce things like the conditional. But these "functional" learning materials do have one remarkable result. After a semester or two learning with them, students just scream for grammar so that they can understand what they have been learning.

One of the assumptions of these more "communicative" approaches is that the sentence, not the word, is the basic unit of language to be taught. I read that that's been overturned by linguists. There's no substitute for balance (and thoroughness).

Although very different, both Learning Irish and Buntus Cainte strike a chord in learners. Both share the shortcoming that the more functional, communicative courses of recent years make up for: The newer ones concentrate on basic things like "Dia dhuit" and the response, "Dia's Muire dhuit," the very thing that LI and BC leave out. So they make reasonable-to-good supplementary materials for Learning Irish (or Buntus Cainte). Assuming people can handle the dialect hurdle between LI and other materials. Learning Irish has a short list of practical, common phrases -- linguistic first-aid -- at the end of Lesson 1 that should not be neglected, by the way.

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Dawn (66.19.56.64 - 66.19.56.64)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 07:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lol Alex, you must be south-side.

I'm not a sports fan, but baseball has always been my favorite game, and I really enjoyed seeing the Cubs succeed at long last. Who would've thought it possible. :)

Did you not see? The correct answer is this:

siopa daltaí na Gaeilge

I can explain to you WHY this is the correct answer, but you have to understand the genitive case first. Do you need an explanation of that? My advice remains the same - ignore it for now - but if you insist, I'll try to make it as clear as possible (or maybe I'd better let Jonas do it, haha).

Regarding TYI, go with what Jonas and Seosamh have told you. I haven't used any program other than TYI, so I can't compare.

How do you use wav files in emails?

Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.64 - 66.19.56.64)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Jonas, I think you also look forward to correcting my opinion. ;-)

I may have an easier time with TYI than someone like Alex because I already have years of experience studying languages on my own. I have learned a lot merely through intensive bookwork about how language programs work, and so I know how to fill in some of the gaps in TYI. German made me aware of the acc./gen./dat. articles. Latin grammar taught me the usefulness of noun and verb charts, while Japanese taught me how to think "backwards". After studying Irish, well, I have more compassion for the Spanish speakers who are trying to learn English. I feel their pain. :)

Still, grammar nut that I am, I grow more restless with TYI every day, now that I know there's a better source out there. I was getting along pretty well as long as I used the book and tapes every day (and I mean morning, noon, night), but I've slacked off since finding Daltaí. It's not all bad. I've learned things here I didn't get in TYI, not the least of which are people who can tie up the loose ends I've tried to just ignore (which is self-defeating in the end).

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South burbian ;- (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OK then, lol I think I need to know what a genetive is...I have enough trouble with english grammer...now IRISH! lol

Anyhow if you can give me a general definition that would be great :-D

also JESUS CRISTO DAWN!? how many languages have you studied? HOw many are you fluent in? :-)

And YES I AM SOUTH SIDE! WOOOO!!!! GO SOUTH SIDE IRISH!! WOO! lol Im sorry I couldn't help myself...IM acutally in burbs but I am in south burbs ;-)

Anyhow!

Wav files are easy...

you need speakers and a working microphone (which is on my other computer)
-then you go to start
-programs
-accesories
-entertainment/communication(normally)
-sound Recorder
-Hit the red button and talk into it...save it then attach it in an email...

real simple

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Alex (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I love this site..

I learned new Irish today!


Cén t-ainm atá ort?

Aslaner atá orm.

LOL

I got some Qs!

Ort-

like OF you?

Orm-
like of ME?

I was thinking O-tu and O-me merged


and the t-ainm

Is ainm a word on its own and the T mean like something maybe the merge again?

Tu ainm
t-ainm
just a guess

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Bradford (24.220.0.48 - 24.220.0.48)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex,

If you look in the Classes section of this website you'll notice a few people teaching Irish in Chicago. I realize Chicago is a very big place and I don't know how near they would be to you, but obviously if you could get in a class that would be the ideal situation.

Good luck in your studies!

- Bradford

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.70 - 67.235.185.70)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 09:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Whoa. Lot goin' on since I was here last. Maith thú, a Dhawn. Good catch on the 't' and 'd' exception for genetive masculine. Interesting note - if you click on the shop of this site, it says "Siopa Dhaltaí". A mis-print?
Also, in lesson 25 of Ó Siadhail, it gave an example as "geata theach an bhuistéara". Shouldn't this be 'geata tí an bhuistéara'? Or have I missed something else?
OK. I try to give a quick explaination of genetive case. Basically, it denotes belonging. An example would be, 'the house's door' - 'the door of the house'. "The house" is in the genetive case.
A Alex, a chara, now your getting into the prepositions. "Orm" is the merged form of Ó and mé. Go into the grammar section of this site for a complete list. And, yes 'ainm' is the word for 'name'. The "t" bofore it is a result of lenition or "seimhiú". This is because it came after 'Cén', the combined form of 'cé' and 'an'. that should, I believe, also make it a feminine noun which takes seimhiú after the definate article 'an'(the). So, "Cén t-ainm ort?" is the completed form(s) of 'Cé an (t)ainm ar tú?'.
A Jonas, GRMMA for the links. I haven't had a chance to see them yet, but I'll definately give a look. Anything to get all of our heads together in this.
A bhfuil duine eile ar bith ag thabhairt spraoi chugainn féin choimh mór liom?
-Maidhc.

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Alsander (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 10:46 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

OMG I Was right on the ORT and ORM?!

Wow...

Me is proud! lol

and yea your right...I know I looked into the classes but

#1 they are kind of far

#2 I got school and am only 13

meaning not a lot of time for it and not a good way to get there

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Alsander (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Also I think I get it


Daltaí

Na nDaltaí(Nuh Nal-tee)

An dhaltaí na Gaeilge(one group of students) and then (Un gy(duit sound)alt-ee nuh gay-il-gay)

and then in the case of ainm...Its like you add a t- because nainm and ahinm wouldnt make sence

and then

Dalta

an dhalta

a/na nDalta(uh/nuh Nahl-tuh)

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Alex (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

oh yea hey dawn where you from?

Area code?

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Dawn (66.19.56.64 - 66.19.56.64)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, mo chara, would you please not use the Lord's name that way when speaking to me? I am not upset with you, but as a Christian I can't ignore such a statement when it's directed at me.

My language ability is not very impressive, really. Notice I said I have done much studying on my own. As you are learning yourself, that's a pretty hard way to do it. I have studied six languages, but only about a year's worth of each. So, English is the only language I speak fluently. I could read the most in Spanish, of course, but speak better Japanese (the language I have spent the most time on). Japanese grammar is very simple actually; it's just very different from English. I could go on about Japanese forever................but I won't. :)

Thanks for the explanation of the wav files. I don't have a microphone, but it's good to know how that works.

Alex, "orm" is an example of the prepositional pronouns I told you about earlier (like "leis" remember?) Orm is a personal form of ar (on), not ó (from). It is literally translated as "on me". Cén t-ainm atá ort? What name is on you?

ar + mé - orm (on me)

ó + mé - uaim (from me)

de + mé - dom (of me, mine)

Keep in mind that Irish doesn't often use the same preposition as we would in English.

Maidhc, the t- before ainm is not lenition.

Also, ainm is not a feminine noun. Only masculine nouns take t- before a vowel. Feminine nouns with an initial vowel don't change after "an". (See the noun chart I posted above.)

TTYL,
Dawn

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Dawn (66.19.56.64 - 66.19.56.64)
Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Wow, we've both been busy typing.

I hate to tell you this, but you're not understanding the article - noun relationship. I know, part of it is due to some wrong information you were given. Here:

Daltaí is a masculine noun, which means it does not lenite after the article. The example of "rang" in the chart I gave you wasn't the best one because "r" never lenites anyway.

an dalta / na daltaí

No lenition.

I have to go to bed. See you tomorrow!

Dawn

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Alex (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

then why did people say the whole na dhaltaí thing? It just isnt clicking, and I know I dont get it and am horrible with grammer lenition...what is lenition?!

and can SOMEONE explain the t-????


and finally I apologize for the jesus cristo, :-)

Japanese is easier grammer than english as well then???

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Dawn (66.19.56.213 - 66.19.56.213)
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex, a chara, it's forgotten. :-)

I wish I had a grammar book..........sigh. Maybe Jonas or someone who knows can explain the daltaí dilemma.

Lenition is the softening of the initial (first)consonant of a word. There are several rules for when it applies. I can give them to you, if you like.

t- is added to the front of a masculine noun that starts with a vowel, when it is following an article or certain words like Cén. For example:

athair - father

an t-athair - the father


eolas - information

an t-eolas - the information


ainm - name

an t-ainm - the name

Cén t-ainm - What name


Three things that are easier about Japanese grammar than European languages:

1. There are no articles.

2. There are no plurals.

3. Verbs do not change with person.

As you can see, it's a very ambiguous language. :)

Dawn

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Alsander (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

LOL ok ONE more thing because I THINK I am getting it!

When does one pull the nDaltaí and Dhaltaí??

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Alex (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá sí fuar

Correct?

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.94 - 67.235.185.94)
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Jonas,
I just printed out those phonetics from that site. Not bad. There are a few things that are still missing though. Such as the lenited 'c'(ch), and lenited 'd'(dh). I would suggest using k* and d* for those respectively. It makes sense and avoids the confusion that some might get from kS and dS in the middle of words.
Another thing I found is that where I'm from, the sounds represented by the ASCII symbols a:, o, and o: are very often so close that one from this area would hear no difference. I see no real problem with this - it would simply be in the 'eye' of the listener.
Also, there is no distinguishing between broad or slender consonants, but I hope that one could see that in the written Gaeilge forms.
Lastly, there are those who come to us occasionally for translations, for names of boats or for body art, etc. who have no preconcieved notion as to how any of these words are pronounced and also not having the phonetics with them. (And possibly too lazy to get them.) ;) We may still have to resort to writing things in English "equivalants(?)". After they are given in the phonetics first.
In all, a step in the (rait direk-S.n) :)
-Maidhc.

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Maidhc Ó G. (67.235.185.94 - 67.235.185.94)
Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 10:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh, wait. You could use(j) as a consonant slenderizer. Although slender 'd' and 's' have seperate symbols.
But one could also use 'sj' or dj' as well.
-Maidhc.

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Jonas (213.243.191.221 - 213.243.191.221)
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 03:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara!

There is already a very easy symbol for "ch", being /x/
loch -> /lox/
chait -> /xat´/
Ciarraí -> /k´i@'r´i:/
Chiarraí -> /x´i@'r´i:/

It's true that there is no symbol that we can type here that represents broad "dh" or "gh", although /j/ is sometimes used for the slender sounds.

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Alex (209.109.227.53 - 209.109.227.53)
Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá sí fuar

Correct?

When does it become Dhaltaí and nDaltaí??

Can you say

Cén t-ainm atá orM?
As in what is my name?

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Alsander (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 01:14 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Bó le bata is capall le ceansact.

Now in the proverbs section it shows a dot over the C. It is my, hopefully correct, understanding that this could also be written as Ceansacht. Correct or no?

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Aonghus (159.134.63.152 - 159.134.63.152)
Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Correct

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Al (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hey guys, can you check this site out and tell me if you think this program/book thing is worth it???

http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/learn/

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Alsander (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hello!


I got a Question:

Is it said and spelled

mo sHeanmHathair féin

the Hs are correct??

And how would the pronunciation go???


Also I figured something out to those who can not do the ctrl + alt + letter for fada.......

Its on the language setting of your computer! If it is set on English(Ireland/UK) it SHOULD work

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex,

First, let me commend you for your initiative. You have all the zeal and apparent determination to do well with this, or any other language. I've followed your questions closely and haven't contributed much because others seem to have things well in hand. Your last few queries are typical of the confusion most of us (note that I use the word "us") beginners have. I'll give you my take on it and hope that it helps.

1) Lenition: Called "Séimhiú" in Irish, it literally means to "mellow" (some would argue "soften") because that's exactly what it does to the consonant that precedes it. It mellows, or softens the sound. Only some consonants can take lenition, however. Rather than remember them, though, it is easier to remember the ones that DON'T take lenition. They are: H,L,R and N. The "dot" you saw over the top of the "c" in the seanfhocal is an older, more traditional means of indicating lenition. It didn't lend itself to the modern typewriter so they developed the "h" to denote it in modern script.

2) Eclipsis: Called Urú in Irish because that is the Irish word for "eclipse". It does exactly what it says it does. It eclipsis the sound of the following consonant. Not all consonants can take an eclipse, however. Again, it is easier to remember the ones that CAN'T rather than the ones that can. They are: M,S,H,L,R and N. (This is the example that Dawn gave you under "lenition" but what she actually demonstrated was eclipses...it's an easy issue to get confused..no fault to her at all)

You can remember these by this little mnemonic.

HaLoRaN was a hard man who never softened.

MS HaLoRaN was his sister and her beauty could never be eclipsed.

For a list of the sounds that go with each eclipsed consonant, scroll down a few topics and you'll find a rather lively discussion on just this issue.

The rules for both Lenition and Eclipsis are many and complex. You've already encountered a few that I will attempt to clear up for you. To list all incidences where one or the other is required would take an entire post and this one is lengthy enough. Also, as Dawn advised, take this in small bites. If you try to do too much at once you're going to confuse the dickens out of yourself and wind up discouraged.

Mo sheanmháthair féin>> My own grandmother

Lenition after the possesive adjective Mo, for "my", is required. It's also required after do, the possesive adjective "your", a for "his". Eclipses is required after the possesive adjectives ár, for "our", bhur for "your" in a plural sense and a for their. Another concept called "prefixing" is required after the a for "her". Ther are essential 3 types of "a" each one meaning his, her or their and differentiated by the context of the sentence and the effect they have on the following word.

Máthair>>> Mother, gets lenition as well. Unfortunately, I can't give the exact rule but it has to do with the gender of the noun and the modifying adjective of sean, or "old."

You have also encountered lenition in the vocative case. Notice that most of these posts begin with "A chara" or "A Chairde". Cara means friend, and cairde is the plural. The "A" in this case doesn't mean his, hers or theirs...it's simply an archaic sounding piece of speech when translated into english. It's like saying "O Friend", as in "O Friend, could you give me some directions?" Again, it's called the vocative case and it requires lenition.

The list of lenition requirements goes on and on, mo chara (see, there it is again). Be patient. Remember, all mountains are scaled one step at a time.

Next issue is the prepositional pronoun. You were right and wrong in your attempt with Orm and Ort. Yes, they are contractions. No, they are not from "O". They are from "Ar" meaning "on". (Note the absence of the fada over the A. If it had the fada it would mean "our"...that fada is very, very important for reasons that you will encounter later.)

The prepostional pronoun is a contraction of a preposition and a pronoun and is incredibly common in Irish. You've already seen it "Dia Dhuit" and Cén t-ainm ort? Incidentally, you will notice the eclipsis with t-ainm. This is required because Cén is a contraction of Cé (what) and an (the) and eclipsis is required with words beginning with nouns that follow the definite article "an". But, this is really a whole discussion in and of itself and I don't want to get off track.

If you want to explore the prepositional pronouns, go the the grammar section of this site. It has a really good chart that lays it all out for you to study and eventually comprehend.

Hope this has clarified more than it has confused. I'm still learning this language as well so keep asking the questions. They make all of us get back in the books and learn things we only thought we already knew!

Le meas,

Do chara (there it is again!!!j)

James

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Alsander (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 11:26 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mo chairde(yes?)

OMFG James!

LOL Please please to ANYONE who answers my questions.

I am not ungrateful.
I had a simple question and comprehended a lot of that already. So I wish you could have known and saved yourself some typing, but it wont hurt either of us to be reminded. :-)

so its


Mo Sheanmháthair

My grandmother

(Mo HAN-Wah-hir)


and


...i nGaeilge

(ii nuh-gay-ill-gay)

and lastly

NEVER would I descrive Irish as a mountain. its more like, evil, a volcano of pure evil that explodes with something NEW EVERY TIME you think you understand something ;-)


ps thanks for compliment


Go raibh maith agut!(yes?)

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 01:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex,

Muh Hyan wah-hir

and

i nyay-liguh

and

Go raibh maith agat (the spelling on agut vs agat)

Helpful hint when posting on a forum read by mostly adults.....drop the OMG and OMFG and any other such touchy references. As we get older we get closer and a bit more mindful of "The Big Guy". These references are a bit offensive. Especially the OMFG.

Le Meas,

James

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Alsander (64.12.96.106 - 64.12.96.106)
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh sorry :-( so the urú are always the whole nyuh type sound? I mean the whole y sound after words, like ñ in spanish verses the n?


and thanks

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Canuck (216.241.232.218 - 216.241.232.218)
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

It might be worth your while going over the different sounds on this link:
http://www.fiosfeasa.com/bearla/language/sounds.htm
Le meas,
Canuck

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 02:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

No.

All vowels can take urú and only the consonants mentioned earlier. However, only the vowels take a consistent letter as the urú. That letter is "n". The consonants take the following respective letters:

b takes m >> mb ar an mbord

c takes g >> gc bhur gcat

d takes n >> nd an aice leis an ndoras

f takes bh >> bhf go bhfuil

g takes n >> ng faoi an ngardai

p takes b >> bp ar an bplata

t takes d >> dt a dteach

The eclipsis of vowels should not be confused with prefixing, however. A hinion is prefixing. Bhur n-inion is eclipsing.

I would recommend that you get a book called Irish Grammar: A Basic Handbook by Noel McGonagle. Just about every thing I've contributed vis a vis grammar has come from this resource.

Le meas,

James

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Al (152.163.252.1 - 152.163.252.1)
Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2003 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oh I know I am going to try and get it for the holidays, I am too poor to get it wihtout that
:-)

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Alsander (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

can you say


Oíche mhaith duit

Tá sé An oíche mhait(its a nice night, tonight is nice)

and can someone maybe point me towards some adjectives aside from maith?

Is cara pronounced (kar-uh or Sar-uh)

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Larry (217.43.57.207 - 217.43.57.207)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 05:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes, you can say "Oíche mhaith duit"

No, you can't use "an" in your second sentence.

A good pocket dictionary will list all the adjectives you're likely to need.

In Irish, the letter "c" has the hard sound of "k", never soft as in "s".

Le meas,

Larry.

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Alsander (205.188.209.10 - 205.188.209.10)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 11:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

So ok


So I say

Tá sé oíche mhaith

and

Whats the difference between the pronunciations in cara and CHARA?

and plural is SPELLED

chairde?

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Brendon (4.3.130.137 - 4.3.130.137)
Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I live in seattle and have been learning Gilge from A fellow here. I am only up to frazes and i would like to find a voice chat room or lome one to get together with I have much to offer in the way of history and traditional stories. I read a lot and have more books than some public libraries. I plan on ging to Evergreen University in a cuople of years and take irish there(olimpia washington) I would be happy to host a visitor as well. my e-mail is ribrendon@Yahoo.com. Yeah the nym is braging a bit but I think we are all Ri!

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 02:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alex,

Cara is "friend". Chara is also friend but it has been lenited. (Look back up this thread and you'll see reference to lenition that will explain it.) You most likely have seen the second spelling in the vocative case. (Look back up this thread and you'll see reference to that, too.) Chairde is the lenited form of cairde, both of which are plural for cara.

Le meas,

James

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alsander, a chara

Tá sé oíche mhaith is wrong

Is oíche mhaith é
or
Oíche mhaith atá ann

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Nicole (147.252.40.102 - 147.252.40.102)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 05:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Brendon, a chara,

I went to Evergreen myself years ago and would highly reccommend it! At the time (1989-94) there were very few of us interested in Irish, and no-one really qualified to teach it (four of us organised our own independent contract to study the language, but it was rough going!). Just to say, I'm delighted to hear that Irish is now available there & I'm sure you'll find it fascinating.

Would be delighted to know as well who is teaching Irish in Seattle now - is it still Tony from Baile an Fheirtéaraigh?

Mise le meas,
Nicole

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Alsander (209.109.229.148 - 209.109.229.148)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I KNOW ABOUT THE LENITION!

I am asking whats the pronunciation difference between cara and chara then!?

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Mare (81.11.178.4 - 81.11.178.4)
Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Alsander,

My two eurocent : if your native language is english :

cara is pronounced like car+ah

chara is a bit tricky on english speakers : ch-ar+ah
if you have ever heard a german or jewish person say "ach" as in 'oh dear' , or heard a scot say "loch ness" then that is what the sound the "ch" in chara should sound like. A soft guttural "cchhh"


Aonghus, please correct me if I'm wrong - I have a soft 'ch' accent

Le meas
M.

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James (199.112.55.122 - 199.112.55.122)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 05:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alsander,

Apparently, you do know about the lenition but you don't UNDERSTAND lenition. Your question asked about the difference between pronunciation and lenition is exactly that....a pronunciation change. That's why I spent so much time explaining that the Irish for lenition, Séimhiú, means "to mellow" or "to soften". That's what it does to the consonant that precedes it. It SOFTENS it. Instead of a hard K sound you get a softer sound as described by Mare. Instead of a hard D sound you get this goofy cross between a g and a y. Instead of a hard M you get sort of a W. Think about this for a moment.

Start to make the sound for M and just before your lips meet, STOP. Then finish the word.

Start to make a B sound and just before the lips meet, STOP. Now finish the word.

Start to make the K sound that is only sound C makes in Irish and just before your soft palate closes, STOP. Now finish the word.

That is the pronunciation, in mechanical terms, that lenition causes. There are a couple of exceptions but not so many that you need to worry about them right now.

Secondly, you asked about the plural of cara being Chairde and that is incorrect. It also demonstrates that you aren't recognizing lenition when you see it. Anytime you see an "h" after an initial consonant in Irish you can be almost certain that it is a case of lenition. The plural of cara is cairde, NOT Chairde. The word "Chairde" does not stand alone. The mere presence of the "h" means that this word is used in relationship to something else. If you're looking up a word with "h" after the intial consonant, drop the "h" and look up that root word. You'll waste alot of time, otherwise.

Don't get pissy with the all caps in your responses. Irish is a thinking man's (and woman's) language. Put on your thinking cap, use all the personal tools you have accumulated and then ask your question.

I try to answer questions on this site just because it's a way for me to learn. Not because I'm that good at Irish (I'm actually quite bad at it) but because it forces me to think. Man times my answers are wrong, either in part or in whole and I try to preface every answer that I'm not sure of with a statement to that effect. With lenition, however, I'm 90% sure on when and how it's used and 98% certain on how it's pronounced.

I also ask a fair amount of questions on this site but not before I've gone to my resources and tried to find the answer myself. I realize you are without books and such and that is yet another reason I've been rather lengthy in my answers to you. You can print these answers out and formulate your own mini-manual of Irish. That's exactly what I did when I first started on this site and to this day I refer back to it.

Keep at it but don't get pissy when someone answers your question. You've got the drive and the brainpower....keep plugging away and it'll come to you. You're doing well but you need to apply some of the lessons. It seems to me that you're asking alot of the same questions, just with different words or in differenct contexts, over and over.

James

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Alsander (209.109.241.248 - 209.109.241.248)
Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 11:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well first of I apologize. I just get so frustrated with this Irish sometimes!

Also I must say to the reworded questions things is that with something extremely hard and new, learning in it a FEW wordings and ways helps me TONS!

and finally on the lenition sounds...you SOOOO helped me on that its not even funny! The only one I kind of have trouble with is the ch but that will come eventually I hope...


Thanks again


go raibh maith agat

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