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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (July-September) » Translation for "charm"? « Previous Next »

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brighid olannerghty (68.52.218.10 - 68.52.218.10)
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 06:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm looking for the translation of the word "charm," as in charm bracelet, not as in charming or the magic spell kind of charm.

Among those friends who speak the language well, we are without consensus. One says the word is closer to the idea of "talisman," which we definitely don't want. Or it translates back to English as "token," as in token of my affection. That's not right either.

I need memento, keepsake, treasure, that which is the representation of a fond memory.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Brighid

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PC (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

How about taisce?

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brighid (68.52.218.10 - 68.52.218.10)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Interesting. That one hadn't been mentioned. Could you give me context and pronunciation? I so appreciate your help!

b

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.129.68.85 - 65.129.68.85)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

No, no, I wouldn't go with taisce at all. That means store or cache. I would go with "briocht", which may also be used as a spell, but I think mostly means ; talisman, charm, etc. - BRIOCHT (pro. BRICKT)
-Maidhc.

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PC (217.155.45.122 - 217.155.45.122)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry, a thaisce! :-)

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brighid (68.52.218.10 - 68.52.218.10)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

pc, would you use it in context? maidhc, i need to stay away from the "magical" aspect. we're making charms as gifts, so they're really keepsakes more than anything else.

thanks again!

b

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PAD (12.89.75.173 - 12.89.75.173)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

How about cuimhneachán -keepsake or memento? (cuiv- na-cawn

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Risteárd (132.236.122.140 - 132.236.122.140)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I think the issue is that "a charm" or "charm bracelet" has magical or lucky connotations by definition. If what you want is the sense of keepsake, momento, souvenir, then I'd go with "cuimhneachán" as suggested above.

But I'm open to correction!

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PAD (12.89.75.173 - 12.89.75.173)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Risteárd, a chara Charm bracelets are not considered magical or lucky. The "charms" attached to the bracelet are reminders of happy events in the wearer's life, hobbies, trips, etc.

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Risteárd (132.236.122.34 - 132.236.122.34)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Right so, I stand corrected. I'd never come across that concept before! (I assumed a charm bracelet was a type of amulet)

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PC (217.155.45.123 - 217.155.45.123)
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

So would 'taisce' be alright? A storehouse of treasures is what I had in mind.

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.204.92 - 65.128.204.92)
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

No. Taisce is a storehouse as in warehousing or a store where you go to buy things or a bank for savings etc. I'm thinking that 'cuimhneachán' is the right way to go now if you want to avoid the inference of magic. Bráisléad cuimhneachán is even more exact. A keepsake bracelet.
Also, if memory serves me, charms were called that because they were believed, in earlier times to have powers, like crystal balls and such, to, sort of, take one back through time to special events and were, thus, considered magical and "charmed". That's why I went with 'briocht' in the first place.
So, cuimhneachán avoids the magical inference, making it a keepsake bracelet. And briocht makes it a charm bracelet.
Siúlann cumhacht cuimhní shona le an (bráisléad) briocht. The power of happy memories goes with the charm (bracelet).
-Maidhc.

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brighid (68.52.18.106 - 68.52.18.106)
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 11:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

amazing! thank you all, so much, for being willing to be so precise. from what you've all given me, though, it sounds like "cuimhneachan" is the way to go. we're not actually making the bracelets, just the charms. can someone help me with the emphasis of the pronunciation? i assume CUIV na cawn.

maidhc, as i have only a minimal understanding of usage, can you help me further understand your quote? is it "cuihmni" that is a form of "cuimhneachan"? and is the context you've given me a quote from someone or something? i'd like to use it with our gifts, if it would be appropriate, but i would want to source it if i do. again, many, many thanks!

b

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brighid (68.52.18.106 - 68.52.18.106)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

one more thing, we're doing these for our girls who particpate in irish dance competition here in the states. we'd like to use the word "feis" with, presumably, "cuinhmeachan." again, a usage question. (thank you all, again, for being so patient with such a complete novice!) assuming we are trying to say "a memory of the feis," would it be "feis cuinhmeachan" or "cuinhmeachan feis." i speak several languages (unfortunately, despite the name, irish is not one i can truly say i "speak"), and the proper use of adjectives varies.

you are appreciated!

b

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James (199.112.55.62 - 199.112.55.62)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 02:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Bhrid, A Chara,

I'm a bit of a novice but I'm going to take a stab at this. If you want to say "Charm of the feis" I think it would be something along the lines of:

Cuimhneachán den Fheis

A couple of things come into play. One is spelling. Watch how you spell cuimhneachán. It has a lot of bunched up consonants in the middle (a typical aspect of Irish) and it's easy to get them out of order. Check your spelling in your most recent post. Secondly, "De" meaning "of" and the definite article "an" combine to give us "Den". When nouns follow the definite article they require lenition (or "softening") if they begin with a lenite-able consonant. In plain english-you have to add the "h" after the initial consonant if it is B, C, D, F, G, M, P, S, or T. The other consonants don't lenite. Now that we've done all of that, the pronunciation changes.

Cuiv-na-CAWN nah heis

If you want to say "Feis Charm" we get a bit more tricky. The noun cuimhneachán has to be changed to agree with Feis. This is declension and I stink when it comes to declension. Unfortunately, it will probably sound better if we use this option. Let me get into my books and I'll post again, shortly.

Keep up your work with the Feis. Any perpetuation of Irish culture is desperately needed. Through the culture someone, if only one, will become interested in our language and THAT is something that is even MORE desperately needed!

Le meas,

James

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James (199.112.55.62 - 199.112.55.62)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Crap!!! After all of that, I screwed up the pronunciation!

Cuiv-na-CAWN nah heis SHOULD be

Cuiv-na-CAWN den eis

Now, watch someone who is a native speaker come along and negate all of my efforts!! Like I said, I'm a novice and still deep within the learning stages.

Le meas,

James

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James (199.112.55.62 - 199.112.55.62)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 04:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

OK--I'm in some really unfamiliar territory here but I think Feis Charm would be either

Feis cuimhní

or

cuimhní feisa

Then again,I could be completely confused about declension and when it is and is not necessary.

Let's see what the gaeilgoiri have to say.

Le meas,
James

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brighid (68.52.18.106 - 68.52.18.106)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i'm having way too much fun with this! and i'm going to be forced to find a teacher. what a rich language!

james, i'll wait to see what the others say, as you suggest, but in the meantime, pronounce for me what you sent in your last post. i like the idea of a shorter phrase, if possible, as long as it's accurate.

thanks again!

b

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.208.46 - 65.128.208.46)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit, a Bhríd, a chara,
"I gcuimhne ar an fheis Éireannach."
In memory of the Irish feis.
( i giv-nuh er uh hesh AYR-uh-nuch*t)

The first 'i' sounds like the 'i' in 'it'.
'CH*' as in the German word 'ach'.

I do wish a Gaeilgeoir will make us certain.

Cuimhne is the word as Gaeilge for memory. Cuimhneachán means token or momento, souvenir.
Cuimhneachán an Fheis. - Momento of the feis.
(kiv-nuh-ch*awn uh hesh.)
As for the quote. Nope, it's an Ó Gáibhtheacháin original uaim féin é.
I'm in agreement with James as to waiting for confirmaton from one of the natives, though.
Slán go foill,
Maidhc.

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Paul (66.152.218.225 - 66.152.218.225)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Brighid, a chara,

Maybe you could introduce the dancers to the language by giving a book/tape set for beginners
as a prize. The book/tape set Buntus Cainte is available in this website's shop.

All the best,
Paul

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James (199.112.55.62 - 199.112.55.62)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Brighid, A Chara:

I'm remembering a term from Irish folklore about Fionn Mac Cumhaill eating from the fish of knowledge. If I remember correctly the gaeilge for that is An Bradan Feasa. So, why am I telling you this when you clearly haven't asked a thing about folklore, fish or some guy named Fionn Mac Cumhaill? Well, it's because I think the declension rule is the same in our current case in question thereby giving us:

Cuimhneachán Feisa

Again, what you are witnessing here is the mental gymnastics of a gaeilge neophyte. Wait for some of the natives to chime in before we get too far committed on this thing. Cá bhfuil Seosamh agus na gaeilgoiri eile?!?!

A Phól, A chara!! Go han-mhaith!! Excellent idea!

Buntus Cainte is a great way to get young (and not so young--I've got a copy) minds involved in the language. It's very basic in its approach, very non-technical (not one grammar lesson in the whole darned book!) I think it would be a fantastic prize.

Brighid: Here are a few other words and phrases you can sprinkle in with your classes. These will also introduce the dancers to the language.

Go han-mhaith (Go han wah) = Very good

Mar sampla- Nice transition of your steps, Caitlín. Go han-mhaith!

Sin é (Shin ay) = That's it!

Mar sampla- Ruari, now you've got it. Sin é!

Maith thú! (Mah hoo)= Good for you or Good on you

Mar sampla- Maith thú, Aisling! That set was fantastic!

I really hope this is helpful to you. You've got a great opportunity to really set some young minds to work. The dancing is just fantastic on all fronts. It's physical, it's cultural, it teaches confidence and poise---what a great thing to be doing for these youngsters. Let us know if we can do more.

Ard mheas,

James

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brighid (68.52.18.106 - 68.52.18.106)
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

excellent ideas, every one. and thanks for the encouragement.

james, for accuracy's sake, help me with the emphasis on the last post. i like the flow of the post from maidhc this morning. but as i said, the simpler the better, so let me know how i would pronounce your suggestion.

as i do not know who the natives are, one of you let me know when they show up, would you? thanks!

b

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James (199.112.55.62 - 199.112.55.62)
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 01:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The only thing that stinks worse than my pronunication is my declension. I think that the proper rendering would be:

Cuiv na CAWN Fay sha (I think)

If you see Seosamh or Aonghus chiming in you'll be 100% on the money. There are others equally adept but those two names immediately come to mind. Bradford or Larry are also frequent and accurate contributors.

I'm waiting just as eagerly as you!

James

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Gabh mo leithscéal faoin moill a Shéamais, a Mhaidhc agus a chairde go léir. Bhí mé ag siúl cuid den Ghaeltacht, ar nós roinnt daoine eile is dócha. Is léir go n-éiríonn na cláracha comhrá Gaeilge ciúin sa samhradh agus an samhradh seo, buíochas le Dia, fuair mé deis níos fearr a bheith amuigh sa saol. I think Aonghus and everyone else, myself included, has taken to tasting summer in the west. I haven't strained my eyes at a screen for quite some time. Mhothaigh mé Gaeilge bhreá sa nGaeltacht agus in áiteanna sa nGalltacht idir an dá linn, buíochas le Dia. Chonaic mé an t-iúr aille (juniper) is mó dá bhfaca mé riamh i ngarraí in Inis Meáin. Hello a Bhrighid, I'm making excuses for my absence and getting away from it all as I had no summer at all last year.

Mholfainn (a) 'Cuimhneachán na Feise' daoibh a Shéamais. Is féidir leat fuaim a chuir leis do Bhrighid agus an scéal a mhíniú di. (B'fhéidir gur cuma léi focal a bheith baininscneach nó firinscneach, ach is ansin atá difríocht.)

Má bhíonn easpa slí ar an bhfail/mbráisléad - if space is wanting on the bracelet - is féidir léi (b) 'i gCuimhne na Feise' a scríobh air.
Is fearr liom (a).

A Shéamais agus a chomhluadair, is mór agam an méid a dhéanann sibh anseo do dhaoine eile mar go dtuigim an tábhacht a bhaineann le bheith ag míniú don duine eile an bealach chun an eolais. Chaith mé tamall le dream gan Ghaeilge i mbliana agus sílim go ndearna mé maith na Gaeilge a bheith leo. Is maith an rud an míniú agus is riachtanach an misniú. Gura fada sibh ag míniú agus ag misniú mhuintir an chláir chomhrá seo. Obair na naofachta.

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Paul (66.152.218.225 - 66.152.218.225)
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 09:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Brighid, a chara,
To get back to the idea of a prize or gift to dancers to perhaps introduce them to the language,
how 'bout a Daltai na Gaeilge tee shirt? They come in all sizes... (check out the shop on this website). Good quality as well: mine's a few years old and still looks great. Affordable, and I bet the dancers would love 'em.
If only one in a hundred dance students developed an interest in Gaeilge, it'd be a tidal wave.
All the best, Paul

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brighid (68.52.18.106 - 68.52.18.106)
Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Seosamh, I so appreciate your response. However, I speak only a few words of this beautiful language, so I have absolutely no idea what you've said, with the exception of the fact that you've evidently been on holiday, perhaps on my side of the atlantic! I did pick up that you mentioned 'Cuimhneachán na Feise'. Could I trouble you to strain your eyes once more and translate your thoughts?

To all of you, thank you again. This simple idea has become much more interesting thanks to your input. and i will check out the t-shirts. they love those!

b

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.201.15 - 65.128.201.15)
Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit, a Bhríd,
As I understand it, Seosamh recommends, "Cuimhneachán na Feise" as his preference to be printed on the bracelets.
He mentioned that "i gCuimhne na Feise" would be another possibility if there isn't enough space to print the former.
-Maidhc.

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brighid (68.52.18.106 - 68.52.18.106)
Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

thanks, maidhc!

how does one pronounce it with the "na" instead of "an"?

we're closing in!

b

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.208.79 - 65.128.208.79)
Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 09:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Kiv-nuh-ch*aw*n nuh fesh-uh. Though I suspect it would sound pretty much the same as with 'an' from many speakers because the final 'n' of the first word and the initial 'n' of the second blending together.
-Maidhc.

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brighid (68.52.18.106 - 68.52.18.106)
Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

maidhc, as i am depending on you as my translator, can you tell me what Seosamh's second recommendation means? something similar, just a different form, i'm sure, but i'd like to know anyway. and thank you, thank you, thank you.

b

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.208.103 - 65.128.208.103)
Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 01:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dia dhuit, a Bhríd,
"i gCuimhne na Feise"
In memory of the Feis.
-Maidhc.

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