A chara,
I would be very interested to hear comment from Republicans and otherwise on the role and relationship that the Irish language has with Irish Republicans and their principles.

Yeah sure, just give us the name of your newspaper and how much you're paying. And what's Gailge?

-Phil

I apologise firstly for trying to use your language and mispelling Gaeilge. I am not from the media but a political science student from Australia studying the role of culture and nationalism in political disputes and international relations. I apologise once again and had no idea I would cause offence. I have read the responses on many forums on this site and have noticed the users to be extremely friendly and hepful and in no way did I intend to compromise that spirit. Once again my sincerest apologies.

You did not offend and have no need to apologise.

However, you pose what is essentially a political question (and a potentially volatile one at that) on a board devoted to Irish linguistics, not politics. Certainly understandable given your line of study, but a bit off topic for us, me thinks.

Perhaps a forum devoted to Irish politics would yield better feedback.

Go n-eiri an t-adh leat (good luck),

Caoimhín

Ashley,

Excuse Phil. He's a bit of an annoyance to most on this site. His reaction to your query is typical of his arrogant and contemptuous demeanor. I apologize for him as he is most likely not mature enough to see his error much less to apologize for it.

If you do a search for Irish political parties you will find the "official" position for each vis a vis gaeilge. Also, If you scroll back a few months you'll see a discussion that touches on this issue. You may find the discussions informative.

As Caoimhín indicates, though, this has the potential to be a politically contentious topic. Hang on---this could be a bumpy ride!!

Ard mheas agus Adh mor ort!

James

My deep thanks go to both James and Caoimhín, and your advice has been taken on board. I would like any users of the site to know that in all my studies of culture within the political field this site and the Irish language movement has been one of the best organised and well supported of the many cultural movements I have encountered in my study. Good luck to all with the preservation of your fascinating and ancient culture.
Ashley

Ashley a Chara,

It may be no harm to give an email address on boards such as this. People who may not contribute publicly to such discussions may just be the people who might, perhaps, belabor you with many many views on the subject. You have perhaps already met some!

Go n-éirí an obair seo leat - good luck with the work.

Don't mind James, he tends to reveal his stupidity now and again. I knew exactly how I would be interpreted when I posted my post and I got the desired reaction and response. There is no "Republic Movement" anymore. It's 2003, there is no longer any reason to want to have the North as a part of the country, there's isn't any good reason to stay in the country anymore; we're the most over-priced nation in the European Union, and our climate is below average. Ofcourse, that's my opinion. Feel free to disagree and contact the IRA for a membership form. I think you get a free bomb with your application anyway.

As for the Irish language, Gaeilge, it's revitalisation and the work going into keeping it going is nothing to do whatsoever with the political situation, ie. the North.

-Phil

Seeing how nobody's actually given Ashley an answer, I'll give it a try.

I myself am here because I like the Irish Language, Gaeilge. My liking of Gaeilge has nothing to do whatsoever with anything political or patriarchal ( so that's why spellcheck was invented ). I myself think that nobody AT ALL is here to learn the language, motivated only by the fact that "it's my language, I wouldn't be an Irishman/woman if I didn't". I'm so interested in Gaeilge because it's the best language I've ever seen. I'm sure alot of people here would agree with me.


-Phil

You might try aking some at this site for a more political response.
www.caide.com
The "Friends of Sinn Féin". - if they even bother to respond.
-Maidhc.

Ashley,
If it wasn't for the Republican movement we wouldn't be learning Gaeilge now at all, it would be extinct... And Phil, there are loads of beautiful languages.. the reason you're learning Gaeilge is because it 'Is Your Language'(obviously).. The language, the land and the cultural identity is what the resistance was all about..a resistance to the mightiest Empire the world has ever seen.
But of course times have change, Peace and reconciliation must come first now that the Political arena is there for all... and we can learn and speak Gaeilge with our heads held high

Sam,

Just to say, I thought Phil's original response to this question was humourous and not rude at all and I rate his passion for Gaeilge..
Slán

Well here's how I look at the whole situation:

First of all, I'm gonna give my definition of Republicanism:

Taking measures to get Éire back to one whole country.

-

I think that the promotion of Gaeilge, the learning of Gaeilge, has absoloutely nothing to do with Republicanism whatsoever.

I myself am very interested in Gaeilge, but I couldn't give a shit about republicanism. I used to, about 5 years ago. I was in Armagh before (that's in the North) and everywhere there was army people walking around with riffles. Back then, I thought it would be best to kick the English out and so on. But now the peace treaties have been signed and there's true peace. And it isn't as if the English are treating the Northerners badly either; the North is just as prosperous as the Republic now.

And wasn't Rome the greatest empire!? That empire was much better. They had good sports too, throwing people to lions, gladiatorial fights to the death. Now that was some original stuff.

-Phil

In response to Phil's suggestion that I join the IRA, for the "free bomb," I must say that this came as a great shock from someone who has devoted a lifetime to studying conflict NOT promoting it! I posted on this site as it seemed a friendly and open academic and social discussion of the Irish language and culture, not to be accused of militant Republicanism. I understyand the nature of Republicanism Phil ,I lived on the Falls Road for three years in completing much of my study. This was at a time however, where the Irish language was scarecly used in the North. My advice to you Phil would be to be less uspicious and sarcastic regarding academia and study, my understanding is it was academics at many stages of time that saved the Irish language. I only seek to add to the discourse on the subject and that can only help your cause. And if there is further doubt as to my accreditation here you go.

Dr. Ashley Griffith
Bachelor of Economics (Political Science)
Australian National University
Master of Science (International Relations)
London School of Economics and Political Science
Doctor of Philosphy (International Conflict)
Cornell

Maith Thú, Ashley!

Phil, to you ever get the idea that people older than you, with more education and more general life experience are less than thrilled with your attitude toward others. If you do then take the hint, do some introspection and adjust accordingly. If this fact is just totally escaping you then there is little hope for you. I've tried and tried to gently nudge you to better behavior. It's been done in english, it's been done in Irish--all to no avail. In fact, you seem to get worse.

To put it in terms you can understand, so there is no mistake about it---you're a jerk, Phil.

The really sad thing is that you do seem to have a pretty good grasp of the language and you are passionate about it. Unfortunately, you are also quite arrogant in you dealings with others less fortunate and less adept than you and you give little regard to respecting the position or feelings of others. I do wish you would tone things down and really, really think about the image you are putting forth, not only for this site, but also for Irish youth in general. For many, you are the first encounter that they will have with an Irish teenager. What a sad example you've set so far.

You have the potential, son, but you are falling far short.

James still talking? I wish my lungs were that fit.

I'm not even gonna read your post. I'm gonna assume it's something like this:


I'm great. You're not. You could be great, if only you were a good little boy. No, I'm not trying to be your Daddy. What speech? I'm not lecturing you. You have potential son.

And what exactly am I falling short of? Your expectations? Jesus, I pity your kids, that is if any woman would ever go near you.

Feel free to make any ammendments to your speech.

Lots of love on Father's Day,

-Phil

Ashley, a chara

B'fheidir go gcuirfá do cheist anseo: talfanzine.com ?

"Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam"

[Dear Ashley

Perhaps you'd pose your question here:
talfanzine.com ?

"A land without a language, a land without a soul"]

Hello everyone!!
I have a couple of questions that I know is not directly linked with the language, but I assure you isn't political either just thought this would be a good forum for my research.

Since I'm assuming that most of you are either Irish or Irish-American, I was wondering if you could answer the undoubtedly ambiguous question of: What is Irish(ness) to you? Answer however you like, any insights or opinions would be appreciated. I am an Irish Cultural Studies major I guess you could say and my whole dissertation is trying to define that question by looking at the lyrical content of ballads along history.

My second question is...I'm trying to move back to Ireland after I graduate (lived in Cork for 5 months) and how can I do this? Help me! I'm so in love with the place, i must go back.

Oh..and I have taken Gaeilge in Cork and plan on furthering my language studies

Dia leat mo chader,
Kristina

Not my expectations, Phil. Basic societal expectations. Common courtesy and respect for others as opposed to constant sarcasm and ridicule.

You're too young and too immature to grasp this now, but perhaps in years to come you'll see your actions and comments in a different light and be appropriately ashamed.

Ah James, now you're making things personal. I know crystal clear that alot of my comments are sarcastic and may be slightly ridiculing; but I know exactly to what extent. I have offended no-one here.

You seem to always base our arguments on your maturity and my immaturity. Well lets get into it so; I'm mature enough to know when someone is "taking the piss" and when someone is "ridiculing, insulting and slagging", and I know exactly which category my statements fall into. For example, my reply at the start of this thread; I was "taking the piss", ridiculing if you like, the way in which the initial post was worded. But ofcourse, to you, this was a total an utter lack of respect, which in your mind somehow equates to immaturity. I won't get into the details of this, I'm not a psychologist, but there's definitely some sort of conflict going on in your head. Maybe if you would ever talk to a child, you may realize that they're not all "childish". It is true that they may be less mature, have less cop-on, be less intelligent, have less physical ability; but they're not LESS.

As to one day being inlightened and realizing my shame, I'm starting to feel a little shamed why I even bother to "talk" to you at all.

I have finally realized how annoying and boring it is to come to a topic-specific site, ie. Gaeilge in this case, and have to thrawl to post upon post littered with stupid insults. So I would like to apologize to the rest of the people here for their having to read through this "bullshit" ( that's the only word I know that fits this correctly ). But do expect so see plenty more sarcastic comments; maybe one day I'll even get a laugh out of one of yous.

le meas,

-Phil

Ah Phil,
Let me tell you that much of the "bullshit" as you so eloquently put it is instigated by you. I refer especially to some time back where you denigrated the English language. Cultural imperialism is what has largely destroyed you own language Phil, one would hope you could rise above it. James is just frustrated as many are Phil, with your meaningless lack of respect for others.
Finally, Phil I ask you to recognise that this site and tthe Gaeilge movement is bigger than you. Everyone on this site is fighting a great cause to save a beautiful language and culture. Let me tell you this Phil, from my study and that of virtually every academic that has taken up the subject, you are LOSING. Tragic as it is Gaeilge is going the way of Latin, living in stuffy textbooks and lecture theatres but not within life. As an academic let me tell you that is not a language. A language is vibrant and lively, adapting to cultures and challenges and it will be an unspeakable tragedy for it to be lost. You have a magnificane opportunity to save your language and protect your culture and yet you resort to pettiness and arrogance. If things continue as they are Phil, I unfortunately assure you Gaeilge WILL die as a living langauge if things continue as they are. Further to that Phil, allow me to tell you that your personal contribution is doing more harm than good.

Ashley

Phil,
Your words are lacking in intelligence. I could quote every statement within each of your posts, but we've all read them. Arrogance, but wait, that would be giving you too much credit. I sense that your a little boy with little passion in life who would like to gain attention by presenting absurd ideas as some semblence of a belief system. You believe in nothing, but that would be your mother's doing, she'd be proud of her little lad's contribution to the planet - snyde remarks. Way to go phil, just know that you have the deepest respect and admiration from all who read these pages.

phil, We'd like to thank you for filling the archetype of stupid arsehole for us, someone has to do it.

Tiochfaidh Ár Lá

In a further attempt to answer Ashley:

I've read that there is a significant resurgence in the North vis a vis Gaeilge. There either is, or has been proposed, a gaeltacht in the North and the association of the language with one's identity as being "Irish" is apparently pretty strong there.

I've not visited the North and I have no contacts there. What I've stated is based on conversations and threads that I've encountered on this site and others.

My own interest in the language began directly as a result of my reading of Irish History and the fight for freedom. So, in an indirect way, it was "Republicanism" that sparked the interest of an American of Irish descent to pick up the language.

Le meas,

James

You can go to see what some members of the Irish Parliament are saying concerning this at -

http://www.gaelport.com/bille_teanga/

See under "Plé sa Dáil" discussions from Irish and English speaking members on The Official Languages Bill 2002; second stage, the last listed being from May, 2003.

-Maidhc.

I've lately met a person with a Protestant/Unionist background on another forum who really is determined to learn Irish and is trying to encourage other Protestants (his own terminology) to learn it too. He sees it as part of his heritage too.

Naturally I said I would give him every assistance and that I was delighted.

Duine eile chun cur leis an meitheal!

That is marvellous to hear Duine. When I lived in Belfast one of the most tragic things I ever saw was a young lad speaking Gaeilge to his grandfather and being sharply rebuked by a British soldier for being a "muck-savage" and speaking "leprechaun langauge." I am not trying to enflame any British or Protestant visitor to the forum but it is great to hear some cultural tolerance from both sides.
In response to James I actally wrote a paper on American Irish Nationalism and spoke to many Americans whose interest as initially aroused by the armed struggle but whose lasting contact with Ireland was through culture i.e. the language or music. I would also commend James on what seems to be his strong grasp of an exceedingly complex language, especially as a non native speaker.
Thanks to all those who directed me to the Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, websites for their opinion of Gaeilge. My academic opinion is these policies are token efforts lacking substance or originality. Actually, not much better than what I have seen in Australia with Aboriginal languages. Personally, I can only see it surviving as a living language with an economic revival in Connaught but that's merely a preliminary opinion.
Ashley
PS: If Phil's apology was genuine I commend him on having the courage to admit his behaviour was less than polite. It would be good to move beyond argument.

Tá bron orm,

Phil's apology was not genuine, it wasn't even him. I stepped in and assumed the role of "Phil" to add some comic relief to the situation. I get a bit upset when I hear people like Phil try to push their obviously uninformed position onto the rest of us. I am one who believes in free speech, and I wouldn't stop Phil from saying his bit, but I also wouldn't stop myself from using satire to nullify Phil's useless words.

I must say that I am unimpressed with the moderater for removing my posting under the name Phil, if his crap is allowed to stay my abstract rebuke should remain as well. BUT... this is not my site.

Buiochas to all who put the work in everyday to keep this site going, it has been a long and useful resource in my journey along the path of Gaeilge.

Phil - Focail Leat!

Slán go foill,
Proud Rebublican

Nóta do Ashley:

It has to be said that many of the most remarkable people in the Irish independence struggle have been native Irish speakers. I'm thinking of people like United Irishman/poet/ms. writer, Mícheál Óg Ó Longáin 1766-1837 from Co. Cork;
Eoin Ó Maoil Chalainn > John Holland, the Fenian from Co. Clare who developed the submarine;
Diarmuid Ó Donnabháin Rosa also from Co. Cork, the best biography being in Irish by Seán Ó Luing, vol. 1 - 1969, vol. 2 - 1979;
Micheál Davitt, from Co. Mayo, the Fenian/Conradh an Talaimh > Conradh na Talún/The Land League;
Mícheál Mac Íosóg (> Cusack) from Co. Clare, Cumann Lúthchleas Gael > GAA/IRB.
There are many others who are overlooked as to they're being native Irish speakers and I'm sure the same holds true for many of those from places in Kilkenny, Tipp, Tyrone, Cavan etc., in Irish movements outside of Ireland where they pass unnoticed as Fenians, Molly Maguires or whatever. The English speaking world nowadays sees these people as English speakers only despite the fact that Irish was their first language. Their Irish speaking background is more easily realised in the none-English areas where the Irish went to, South America springing to mind, despite the fact that it doesn't come up for direct mention, although laterly it would appear that those arriving in Argentina were bringing English with them. http://migration.ucc.ie/conferences%20and%20publications/conferences/scattering/conferencepapers/MacLoughlin.htm Patrick O Reilly < Pádraig Ó Raghallaigh from Clifden, Co. Galway, who saw one with the Mexicans and went over to them from the US army, can be more easily realised as an Irish speaker than those who stayed in the States/Canada and survived.

The influence of the Gaeltacht on those who went there, Mac Piarais to Ros Muc (plus his influence on Ros Muc) and Seán Mac Diarmada on his visits to Baile na gCléireach (Co. Leitrim), the latter being the only one to sign his name in Irish to the 1916 Proclamation. (Note that Seán+Mac+Diarmada are the only Irish words to appear in the Proclamation. This is commented on by Máirtín Ó Cadhain. You shall have to address him, the greatest modern creative writer of Irish. The best article to capture what Ó Cadhain represents may be Tomás Mac Siomóin's 'Meon na Muintire agus Paradacsa Uí Chadhain', which is published in Dúchas 1991, 53 - 76 and in Comhar, Bealtaine 1992, 135 - 143. Ó Cadhain's own book 'Tone - Inné agus Inniu' published by Coiscéim in 1999 cannot be missed. Ó Cadhain's book 'An Ghaeilge bheo : destined to pass' also published by Coiscéim, 2002, is a must.

I would think that you must attain an ability to understand written Irish.
Good luck with the work - Go n-éirí sé leat.

I must disagree with Ashley regarding the Irish language ending up like Latin. There is a real revival going on here in the Republic with classes in almost every district for adults to learn conversation Irish or brush up on what they learned at school, both mornings and evenings. I myself, through ill health as a child, left school with so little Irish it doesn't warrant mentioning. However, I started again when my children were all at school and now I am very proud to say I can hold a conversation, slowly, but none the less I can get by. It is the most beautiful language (I know I'm biased). One of my teachers is a mine of information about the origin of place names etc. and I find it facinating to listen to him. His love of the language oozes from him and it makes learning such a lovely experience. I think it is great to see so many people, from all over the world, learning my native tongue.

I feel I must further refine what I meant for Bernadette although she is quite right. There are many people that speak passable Latin, it has long been taught, espeially in non-government schools as well as universities and continues to be all around the world. Of corse, there is no dispute that Latin is dead and there is no Latintacht as it were. Irish isn't going anywhere and unlike Manx it has enough new speakers to maintain itself, most likely for another couple of hundred years at least.
The problem is areas where Irish is a living language and the language of day to day life, and they are in sharp decline. I visited a Gaeltacht area in Galway (sorry I forget the name) in 2001 and the economic depression of the area was startling. I spoke to young people who while loving there lifestyle and culture, were desperate to escape what in some cases was abject poverty and certainly a standard of living below the Republic. One of the young lads said to me "Dublin folk and the like, they romanticise the Gaeltacht, the language and all that. Well they aren't the ones living here, they have work, they have services. If they love the Gaeltacht so much I'll take their nice house and job, and they can bloody well live here."
I noticed some of the same woring with Tibetan refugees in Nepal, they had to learn Nepalese in order to live in their adopted country and English in order to hopefully work for western tourists for a living. After these economic considerations they had little time for Tibetan.
What I am getting at is, I can purchase a book on the COrnish language and enlist someone to teach it to me. But it doesn't mean that COrnish is alive. The Gaeltachts are dying for economic reasons moe than anything else, and while it is tragic, they will take the living nature of the Irish language with them.
Ashley

In response to Seosamh (I apologise tremendously but I do not recognise the gender of the name, my ignorance shows again) I thank him/her for the wealth of information. I was always curious about the signing of 1916 proclamation in english especially from Patrick Pearse, being such a Irish language supporter. Correct me if I am wrong but Michael Collins signed the treaty with England Micael O Colain and I must assume that De Valera being another strong language advocate must have used it in much official business. Is it used frequently in parliament today?
Ashley

seosamh
joseph

If you want, go to www.irlgov.ie and see for yourself. But the short answer is, sadly, NO.

Ashley,
I would be very interested in reading your paper on "American Irish Nnationalism" if you could tell me where to find it. Your credentials would indicate that you have a very interesting angle to your analysis... and I have a passion for the subject.
I appreciate you time.

John Kane

Dia dhuit, a chairde.

Thought I'd share these two recent articles on Gaeilge agus ná Gaeltach (hope that's right!). The first has to do with government endorsement and even encouragement, the other has more to do with demographics.


June 2003

Irish language cost 'a waste' says MP

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=417286

---

RTÉ -June 19, 2003

[The number of people speaking the Irish language has declined in all Gaeltacht areas, except in Meath. Over a quarter of the Irish speaking Gaeltacht population speak Irish less frequently than weekly while 7.4 per cent were recorded as never speaking the language.]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0619/census.html

---

Mo bheannacht óm' chroí,

Marcia

As I have mentioned before, and am glad that finally others appear to agree, Phil is an immature moron. While he appears to want to be helpful, it always has a bit of sarcasim behind it. Phil, take your sorry arse to another site.

Oh, moderator, please stop censuring the site. If Phil can mouth off, others should be free to respond. Frankly, I'm all for voting Phil off the forum.

Ashley, a chara

The simple answer to your question is that republicanism in Ireland does not care about the Irish Language. Take South Armagh which is a republican heartland and Irish is not spoken there. The two are not inextricably linked. But the language is thriving in West Belfast(28.3% of it's inhabitants claim to have a good knowledge of Gaeilge) with the new daily Irish language newspaper LÁ published in Andersonstown, the Aisling Ghéar Irish language theatre company, Ceathru Poilí restaurant, Cúpla Focal café and bar downstairs, Cumann Cluain Ard pub, after school drop in for youths in Ballymurphy, Irish language Community Employment schemes and of course the Irish houses the Gaeltacht on the Shaws Rd. Heck they are even planning an Irish language university there! North Belfast is to build a Cultúrlann of it's own. Look at the Sinn Féin leadership only Gerry Adams , Bairbre de Brún and Lucilita Breathnach can speak Irish to the best of my knowledge. It seems strange to me to be demanding a united Ireland if it's not going to be Gaelic as well. At least all us Irish speakers are the true Irish people. No more arguments Irish people should speak Irish. There is a thread on this site about Irish in Northern Ireland which may be useful to you.

Thankyou very much Liam. I posed your questions to some friens from Armargh wh responded by saying their education left precious little opportunity to study Gaielge. A possibility but it is a strong point you make. To John I am extremely flattered that you would be interested in my work. Unfortunately I sold the copyright to a collection of essays that was never published so in effect I don't own the piece. It was also typewritten and I don't have a copy. I would be very interested in hearing your view and in next few days I will set up a hotmail website and post it so you can send me your email and I will write you up a synopsis. I am sure though thatneither of us want our own emails poste don the web so expect me to post in the next few days.