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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (April-June) » Learning Irish « Previous Next »

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Ed Foley (24.147.104.49 - 24.147.104.49)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

In lesson 10 of "learning Irish", O'Siadhail says that the possessive adjectives "ár" and "bhur" are pronounced the same: that is, "e". How then, do you distinguish the two when context does not make it clear? Also, is that pronunciation peculiar to the Cois Fharraige dialect or is it the same in other dialects?

táim buíoch dhíbh ar shon an eolais. Please excuse my clumsy Irish.

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Phil (159.134.209.246 - 159.134.209.246)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I don't pronounce them anything alike at all!

ár = awwwrr

bhur = vur (as in animal fur, with a 'v')

-

Up the North, they pronounce all "á"s as "a". And sometimes they pronounce it as "e", for example in "áitiúil".


-Phil

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Beth (204.111.90.22 - 204.111.90.22)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Conamara speakers do seem to use the sound "uh", represented by that upside-down e symbol. The key to which possessive adjective is being used is either the form of the noun coming after it, or else you're dependent on the context! ádh mór ort!

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Jonas (213.243.177.73 - 213.243.177.73)
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

That pronunciation is indeed not found in all dialects. In Munster Irish ár is pronounced [a:r] and bhur is pronounced [u:r]. No risk of mixing them up.

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.204.187 - 65.128.204.187)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Along with Ó Siadhail, I go to www.irishpage.com and go into the irish lessons. They were first published in the "The Irish People" and are pretty good. There's 128 of them and are in the Munster dialect. I mix the two, Ó Siadhail and "The Irish People" and it seems to work fairly well, Ó Siadhail being easier to reference because you only have to look in the index to find something. But the first 20 or so 'lessons' go over pronunciation. Ó Siadhail also points out that the Cois Fharraige is even slightly different even from other surrounding Connaught and standard Irish. He addresses these in Appendix III.

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Ed Foley (24.147.104.49 - 24.147.104.49)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Thank you all for your responses. Beth, could you explain what you mean by the "form of the noun coming after it" or perhaps give me an example? I have to admit, I'm a bit daunted by all the dialectal variation. As if it weren't bad enough trying to grapple with Munster, Connacht, and Ulster Irish, now I find that Connacht has its own variations! Actually, I find it kind of fascinating, but it does present a big challenge to the learner. It's great to have all you people to bounce these questions off of. Thanks again.
le meas, Ed

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.179.112.143 - 65.179.112.143)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

From Ó Siadhail:
mo dhoras - my door
do dhoras - your door(sing.)
a dhoras - his door
a doras - her door
ár ndoras - our door
'ur (bhur) ndoras - your door(plur.)
a ndoras - their door

I'm pretty sure that's what Beth meant by "form of the noun". And I wouldn't get too worked up over dialectal variation within Connaught. Think of it as though two guws from New York City having a chat. One lives in the Queens section and the other is from Brooklyn. They would both have slightly different ways of saying things, but would easily understand one another.

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Beth (204.111.92.127 - 204.111.92.127)
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Go direach é a Mhaidhc.

Even though I've "grown up" with the Cois Fharraige dialect, I have to agree with the conventional wisdom: Munster dialects are a little easier to decipher aurally. They sound a bit more like what you see on paper, well illustrated by the a/ár/'ur question. However, the C.F. dialect sounds to me like ocean waves breaking on the shore, which is enough reason to love it.

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Jonas (213.243.178.170 - 213.243.178.170)
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 04:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

One can't argue about opinions. Besides, I rather like Beth's view of Cois Fhairrge Irish.

I would guess it depends on how you've approached the dialects; I read Learning Irish while in Finland so for me it is a very formal thing. Munster Irish, the Irish that I speak, is something that I've never read but picked up by staying in Corca Dhuibhne.

To me, then, Munster Irish does not sound like anything you see on paper. Much mure like the atmosphere on the Great Blasket Island, with the waves rolling in on Tráigh Bhán and the seals calling to each other. That, for me, is the sound of Munster Irish.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 05:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>>the atmosphere on the Great Blasket Island, with the waves rolling in on Tráigh Bhán and the seals calling to each other. That, for me, is the sound of Munster Irish.

Ana-ráite agat a Jonas. Ceol diamhar na cainte atá i gceist agat ansan. Is ionann san is a rá gur mothú níos a mó ná aon ní an teanga, mothú a bhfuil culaith fuaime buailte uime. Is cinnte gur léir duit teanga. Is gnách go samhlaítear don duine gur córas fuaime í teanga a bhfuil rialacha sainiúla dá chuid féin ag baint léi srl. Gura fada buan thú.

>> Táim buíoch dhíbh ar shon an eolais. Please excuse my clumsy Irish.

Nothing clumsy about that Ed, tá tú ag déanamh go maith, bail ó Dhia ort.
Looking at this thread, is cosúil go bhfuil dearcadh follán ag gach éinne agaibh i leith na héagsúlachta canúna. Is mór an mhaith é sin.

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Ed Foley (24.147.104.49 - 24.147.104.49)
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A few days ago I discovered "Blas" and began listening to some of the interviews on it. Some of the guests spoke dialects very different from the interviewers ( it seemed to me, anyway ) and yet they didn't seem to have any problem understanding each other. Although I couldn't understand very much, It was very encouraging to hear different forms of Irish being spoken so naturally and easily. It gave me the feeling that Irish really is a "living language".

slán agaibh

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