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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (July-December) » DUBLIN « Previous Next »

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tis_herself (203.221.105.90 - 203.221.105.90)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 04:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

What does "DUBLIN" mean or where did the word originate from ??
Many thanks for your help

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James (199.112.58.37 - 199.112.58.37)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The Irish name for Dublin is "Baile atha Cliath" which translates roughly to "Town at the Ford". Dublin is, I believe, a Norse name. The town was occupied by the Norse from around the time of Brian Ború until the gradual assimilation of the Norse into the Irish community.

I'll do a bit more research and try to get a more detailed answer for you.

Ard Mheas,

James

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James (199.112.58.37 - 199.112.58.37)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 08:22 am:   Edit Post Print Post

OK. That didn't take long.

Dublin is the anglicized version of Dubh Linn, the Irish for "Dark Pool" which is what the Vikings called the city. The name I gave above is the Irish name for the city, in other words, it's the name that the Irish call the city not the Irish for what the Vikings called it. Baile Atha Cliath means "City at the Hurdle Ford." The pronunciation is varied but the two I've encountered most are:

"Bla Clee"

agus

"Bala a Clee"

There are some pretty good web sites that can expand on this and other aspects of Dublin history. This is but one of several:

http://www.travelstarter.net/Dublin/history.htm


Le meas,

James

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 08:57 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Seachain na foinsí i dtaca le Gaeilge a Shéamais. Don't trust any of the sources on Irish etymology a Shéamais. Ba cheart dóibh a choimeád ina chumasc - they should have kept it as a compound: Dubhlinn.

Tá léarscáil bhreá a bhfuil an dá áit, Dubhlinn agus Áth Cliath, le feiceáil i gcló sa leabhar 'Dúchas agus Dóchas' ar lch. 12. (Mac Mathúna, Liam, BÁC, 1991)

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Phil (159.134.209.141 - 159.134.209.141)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Dubh Linn"

Why the hell isn't that "Linn Dhubh" or "An Linn Dhubh"!?

Baile Átha Cliath = The town of the ford of the hurdles

I once had a teacher that was from Kerry and he spent about half an hour one day fully explaining "Baile Átha Cliath" and a few other county names.

It's shortened slightly to "Áth Cliath", "The ford of the hurdles". This is printed on the Dublin Gaelic football and hurling clothing.

-Phil

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An Mídheach Mealltach (213.202.167.63 - 213.202.167.63)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

James wrote:
"The town was occupied by the Norse from around the time of Brian Ború until the gradual assimilation of the Norse into the Irish community."

It's alot older than that James! The annals record that the Vikings first wintered(i.e. settled down proper) in Dublin in 841. There was a monastery there previous to that and the Áth Cliath was a juction on one of the ancient roads on the east coast of Ireland back into prehistoric times, but the actual trading town we know today was established, rather than occupied, by the Vikings.
Brian Ború was around at the end of the tenth century and the beginning of the 11th until he died in 1014.

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Aonghus (159.134.63.155 - 159.134.63.155)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Phil
Is minic go bhfuil níos mó na bealach amháin ann le rud a chuir in iúl in aon teanga. Ní haon éisceacht an Ghaeilge.

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Dónall (213.99.189.22 - 213.99.189.22)
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 07:07 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Mar sin féin, b'fhéidir go mbeadh Áth Cliath "Athcly" ná "Athclee" i mBéarla. Nach ndeireann muid Athlone (Áth Luain) i mBéarla, cuir i gcás? Is ea Baile Átha Cliatha an "Blackpool" Éireannach mar sin, nó Blackpool féin in Sasana an Dublin Sasanch! ;0)

There must be other examples where the translations into English weren't direct. Is Waterford a a direct translation of Port Lairge for instance?

In Italian they say Dublino, which makes the place seem sunnier or something.

And while we're at it; how to you say County Dublin in Irish? (I have googled it, to no avail so far...)

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Is nuacheapadóireacht é Vadrefjord > Waterford. B'ionann 'vadre' na Lochlannaise, 'wether' an Bhéarla agus 'molt' na Gaeilge. Is spéisiúil leis go bhfuil sráidbhaile beag sna Déisibh darb ainm 'Baile na Molt'.

'Contae Bhaile Átha Cliath' is iondúil a deirtear a Dhónaill. Treisíonn an giorrúchán 'BÁC' agus an t-ionad riarachán 'Baile Átha Cliath' leis.

Is fearr le roinnt daoine fós féin 'Áth Cliath' ná 'Baile Áth Cliath' i gcás na cathrach. Braithfear blas na staire leis. Ní hionann sin is a rá go bhfliuchfar cosa an duine a rachfas go hÁth Cliath ar na saolta seo! Cad faoi 'Áth Cliath Duibhlinne' freisin, mar bhlaiseadh staire? Is féidir le duine feidhm a bhaint as leaganacha den chineál sin le linn trácht ar thuras chun na cathrach i measc cairde. Is deas an rud blas na staire a tharraingt isteach sa chaint scaití.

Bhí 'An Linn Dubh' ann chomh maith le 'Duibhlinn' a Phil. (Mac Mathúna, Liam, BÁC, 1991) Is dóigh gur tháinig an cumasc Ind-Eorpaise chun tosaigh ar sin le tionchar an Lochlannach san áit, 'Dyflin'. Tá neart cumasc den chineál sin sa timpeall, Fionnuisce, Fionnghlas, Fionnradharc, Fionnbhrú, Faoldroim, Seantreabh fágaim.

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Aonghus (159.134.62.20 - 159.134.62.20)
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 05:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní hea, ach Contae Áth Cliath!

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Phil (159.134.209.38 - 159.134.209.38)
Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 09:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

So is "Dubh Linn" just an irregularity then? 'cause we all know that the ADJECTIVE follows the NOUN.

-Phil

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 01:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tuigim duit a Aonghuis. Ní hé is cirte. 'Contae Átha Cliath' a deirim féin ach is é 'Contae Bhaile Átha Cliath' a chloisim ón dream nach mór leo treorlíne. Cuidíonn trí bhéim an aonaid chainte le muintir na Gaelscoilise agus má thagann an Ghaeilge chun tosaigh mar theanga i measc gnáthchainteoirí, nach leanann treorlíne, is é 'Contae Átha Cliath', le dhá bhéim san aonad, a chaillfeas. (Nílim ag áireamh siollaí anseo.)

Is iarracht ar Ghaeilge é a Phil, an 'Dubh Linn' seo, rud ab ionann is a rá, nach Gaeilge é. Bheadh 'Linn Dubh' agus 'Dubh Linne' ina nGaeilge lena gciall ar leith féin ag 'chaon ceann acu, ach ní fhéadfadh an dá fhocal eile, 'Dubh' agus 'Linn' tarlú san ord scartha sin, mar ní cumasc ná aonad ainmfhocail é. (= neither compound nor nominal unit)

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Antóin (159.134.180.33 - 159.134.180.33)
Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

No, Phil, it's not an irregularity, it's a standard construction. Seosamh already gave the correct form "Dubhlinn". This is a compound word, so the adjective precedes the noun it qualifies. This is a very common way of forming words in Irish, as a glance through your dictionary will show.

mar shampla-

Dubh-ainbhios = Gross ignorance. (Not being personal here -:))
Dubhfholtach = black haired.
There are also many words where "dubh" has been reduced to "du" in the spelling.

In this type of construction, which is very useful for forming new words, the adjective aspirates (causes séimhiú) the following noun, except where "DoTS follow DeNTaLS".

DiancHúram = Intensive care
Diansaothar = Strenuous work (no séimhiú)

I hope this clears up the "dubhfhocal" (conundrum)

Antóin

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Phil (159.134.209.113 - 159.134.209.113)
Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 06:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"the adjective aspirates (causes séimhiú) the following noun, except where "DoTS follow DeNTaLS".

DiancHúram = Intensive care
Diansaothar = Strenuous work (no séimhiú)" -Antóin


I don't understand, could you exlain it further please.

And what's the story with making these "compound words". For example, Blood Group is not "Grúpa Fola", but "Fuilghrúpa". In my opinion, this is a farce. Take for example "Fuilchairr". You hear that and you think, "Does this mean 'Car Blood' or 'Blood Car'?"
The "compound word" thing isn't consistent at all with Gaeilge grammar. There's plenty of stupid stuff like that in English grammar but I definitely wouldn't expect it in Gaeilge.

-Phil

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.208.12 - 65.128.208.12)
Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
Anois tá fios agam go gcaithfidh mé nua-foclóir ag cheannaigh féin. An bhfuil fios ag duine ar bith faoi n-áit go nd'fhéadfadh mé aon a fháil?
Does anyone know of any which might contain these compound words. I'd also be interested in finding one with pre-caighdeán spelling. One of those really massive ones that you see in the middle of libraries that weigh a half ton and list every variation of every word in the language. This would really be a prized find.
Go raibh maith agaibh roimh ré.
-Maidhc.

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 06:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá a fhios agam nach maith le roinnt daoine an cumasc a Phil, ach is bealach é atá sa teanga leis na cianta cairbreacha. Bíonn dhá bhuíon ina bhun go teann leanúnach: an foghlaimeoir Gaeilge agus an cainteoir dúchais Gaeilge den chineál is fearr. Is iad an chéad bhuíon a thug an droch-cháil ar an gcumasc. Is bealach an-deas fós féin é, le gnóthaí a dhéanamh agus le ciall a chur abhaile sa chaint má dhéantar é go deas snoite.

Ina dhiaidh sin arís, caithfear glacadh leis gurb é an t-aonad ainmfhocail an bealach is dúchasaí Gaeilge le hobair na teagmhála ainmfhocail a chur i gcrích:

(Gan an tAlt) Carr asail, carr capaill, carr tineadh;

(Leis an Alt) Corp an duine uasail (a proper gentleman), croí na féile, rithim na cainte;

Molaim duit an dá nós a chleachtú de réir do thoile féin agus toil na teangan. Is deas an dá mhodh a bheith ag duine.

Molaim duit an dá fhoclóir a Mhaidhc Ó G. : Ó Dónaill (Niall) agus an Duinníneach (Dinneen, Patrick). Má tharlaíonn i ngá airgid thú, is tábhachtaí an Dálach (Ó Dónaill) a cheannach. Muna mbíonn gá airgid ort, bainfidh tú sult na mblianta as an Duinníneach mar chaitheamh aimsire. Ní foclóir amháin é ach is camrian é trí smaoineamh an duine agus a chuid cainte.

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Antóin (159.134.181.75 - 159.134.181.75)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 07:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I had prepared the following post before reading Seosamh's learned reply.

Hi Phil,

I’m not a teacher and I’m not great at the grammar but I’ll try my best.

DeNTaLS - - DoTS

When a word beginning with D, T or S is preceded by a word ending in D, N, T, L or S it is not normally aspirated, i.e. does not take a séimhiú. I just use DeNTaLS – DoTS as a memory device.

Samplaí:-

Feminine nouns preceded by the definite article “an” are usually aspirated

An bhróg, an chailc. ACH ; an deirfiúr, an teanga.

Masculine nouns in the genitive are usually aspirated when preceded by “an”

Peann an chuntasóra. BUT mála an dochtúra.

When the word followed by “an” begins with “S” it is preceded by “T” (When the S is followed by a vowel or L, N, R)

Srón dearg an tsagairt. An tsráidbhaile.

See also:
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~eofeasa/level04/ceacht404/miniu/404f.htm
and
http://www.daltai.com/grammar/seimhiu.htm

Phil, you say the compound word is a farce and not consistent with Gaeilge grammar. Well it is consistent with the rules of Irish grammar, you are just not familiar with the relevant rules. Compound word are a feature of any language I know of, and maybe all human languages. Adjectives normally follow the noun in Irish – that’s correct, but in compound words they come before the noun. It may be a farce, but it’s the standard construction for hundreds of years. Dubhlinn must be a thousand years old as it was borrowed by the Vikings. Maybe Seosamh Mac Muirí can correct me if I’m wrong.

There is a very good new grammar book on the market, “Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge”. It gives a very straightforward explanation of Irish grammar. It is written in Irish and although not for the beginner is a good reference for anyone woth a reasonable command of the language

http://www.coislife.ie/bookshtm/academic1.htm

Maidhc, I don’t know what dictionary you have but you should find compound words in all. There are quite common and there is nothing exotic about them. For dictionaries you could try
http://www.litriocht.com/

I assume you’re familiar with the online Foclóir Beag --
http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/

Another good online source for modern terms is:-

http://www.acmhainn.ie/nuathearmai.htm

Slán

Antóin

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James (199.112.58.37 - 199.112.58.37)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 07:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Antóin, mo chara!

You rock!! That was a very concise and easily comprehended summary. That's precisely the kind stuff I need to help my feeble brain retain the rules and such. Keep it coming. Anything else like that would be most welcome!

Thanks!

Ard Mheas,

James

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.129.68.103 - 65.129.68.103)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat, a Antóin. I went over to litiocht and had a look around. Tá sé go maith mhór go deimhin. Now, I'm wondering if anyone could give their opinions on the following possible selections.
"Dictionary of the Irish Language" published by the Royal Irish Academy. or
"Foclóir Gaeilge agus Béarla Dinneen".
I've also heard that Cristian Brothers' is very good as well, though couldn't locate it on the site. (Probably just typed it in wrong.)
The dictionary I have does contain some compound words, but unfortunately it's one of those pocket versions which was good in the beginning, but it's definitely time to move on.
These really jumped out at me as well as one or two dictionaries of computer terms. I'll also mention "The Reverse Dictionary fo Modern Irish" by Aidan Doyle and Edmund Gussman. Something about it giving word origins - all of the descriptions are very brief.
Any help and opinions would be appreciated.
Le meas,
Maidhc.

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Phil (159.134.209.16 - 159.134.209.16)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's how I'm looking at things:

Fuilcharr

Fuil chairr


Now you look at that and you say, "hmm, this is simple, there's a space in the second one and there's an 'i' in the second one; Simple to distinguish between the two" Pronounce the both of them. Unless you have a stammer or your voice is still a bit crispy from last night, then they should sound EXACTLY THE SAME.

I rest my case


And to Antóin, good one on the dots after dentals yoke.

And to Seosamh, I noticed that your post started with "a Phil". For the second time, I can't understand what you're saying.


-Phil

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Maidhc Ó G. (65.128.208.102 - 65.128.208.102)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 02:58 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I wouldn't pronounce those the same. The first, I think, depending on the speaker is either FILL-AW*R or FILL-CH*AW*R and the second is FILL CH*-AE*R (AW* asin the English 'awful' and AE* as in the English 'hat'.)
-Maidhc.

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Antóin (159.134.181.130 - 159.134.181.130)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Mhaidhc, Foclóirí arís
The two most popular serious dictionaries are -

English Irish Dictionary (De Bhaldraithe)
Short Description:
English Irish Dictionary (De Bhaldraithe) Eagarthóir: Tomás de Bhaldraithe ISBN 1-85791-035-4 Áis bhunúsach do lucht léite agus scríofa na Ga...
Price: €15.24

Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla O Dónaill
Short Description:
Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla Eagarthóir: Niall O Dónaill Eagarthóir Comhairleach: Tomás de Bhaldraithe ISBN 1 85791 037 0 Bog An chuid is ...
Price: €17.78

Both also available in hardback.

These dictionaries are often referred to as simply "De Bhaldraithe" and "Ó Donaill" by Gaeilgeoirí and students. De Bhaldraithe is over 40 years old and there is a real need for an updated dictionary.

Ó Donaill is about 20 years younger and has become the standard reference dictionary. Those two books should take any student a long way. For more up to date words, sources on the internet can help, or some of the smaller specialist dictionaries available from Litríocht.com. Prices are very reasonable.

As for your questions about other publications.

"Dictionary of the Irish Language" published by the Royal Irish Academy. I don't think so, sounds like a weighty academic tome. Or has it actually been published?. The RIA have been working on a major dictionary for years, and it appears to be taking so long it has become a joke. By the time they get to Z, the A section will be long obsolete.

"Foclóir Gaeilge agus Béarla Dinneen".
Ah! This book is an absolute gem, as Seosamh mentioned earlier. However it will not replace a standard dictionary. It is over a hundred years old - pre-Wright Brothers so even the air(o)plane doesn't make it. It is a wonderful resource for idioms and unusual words though.

I've no connection with Litríocht.com but they seem to have a very comprehensive stock. There are other suppliers of Irish language books on the internet but a quick Google on my part didn't supply any other good ones. However I'm sure they are out there somewhere. I buy my books from the old fashioned bookshop but for students outside Ireland, that's not always an option.

Slán

Antóin

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Antóin (159.134.181.131 - 159.134.181.131)
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi Phil again,
Fair play to ya. You're persistent.

We don't normally closely analyse compound words. We learn them or pick them up unconsciously as simply words.

e.g. Mór-roinn = Continent.
If we hear it we don't start to think - "Ah? I wonder does that mean "Great Section" or "Big Division"? Nah, Continent? what a farsical word. I think I'll come up with a better word than that."

Your example of "Fuilcharr" or "Fuil chairr" seems irrelevant to me. Is there such a contraption as a "fuilcharr" or am I missing out on something? And there is a difference of inflexion in the sound as far as I know.

But take a similar compound word -
Otharcharr = Ambulance ("an t-ambulance" to some native speakers)
If you hear Otharchairr, it means ambulances. It would require a very strange context for it to be "othar cairr / the car's patient"

Some other common compound words -

Mórthír = Mainland (not big country)
Leathlámh = One hand (of a person or animal) not a half hand.
Meánscoil = Secondary school / High School (not as in literary translation - medium school)
Meánaosta = Mise.

You use them all the time without realizing it. Just accept it- Chill out.

Slán

Antóin

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 05:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

then they should sound EXACTLY THE SAME.

A Phil, a chara, cén fáth go bhfuaimneofaí mar a chéile iad nuair a litrítear ar dhá bhealach dhifriúla iad? Dhá fhuaim ar leith is ea '-arr' agus '-airr' agus ní 'ceart' iad a fhuaimniú mar a chéile. Tá ceachtanna foghraíochta bunaithe go díreach ar an gceist sin. (Ó Baoill, Dónall, Cleachtaí Foghraíochta 1975, 62-67) Cén mhaith duit an t-eolas breise seo a deir tú? Níl a fhios agam. De réir a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin agus is de réir a chéile a bhrisfear iad. Is leor go fóill cuimhneamh ar an difríocht thuas idir -arr agus -airr go gcloise tú iad. (Scéal thairis gur 'otharcharr/othar cairr' an eiseamláir a bhí ar intinn agat, más ea.)

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Phil (159.134.209.32 - 159.134.209.32)
Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Just in case there's the slight chance that anyone here pronounces "carr" and "cairr" differently, take one of the many nouns whose genetive is the same.

Fuilghrá

Fuil ghrá

"Love Blood"

or

"Blood Love"

???

-Phil

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (193.1.100.104 - 193.1.100.104)
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 04:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

'Blood-love' an chéad cheann a Phil agus 'Blood of Love' and dara ceann. (Is ionann an dara ceann, ar ndóigh, agus 'Love-blood', más maith leat.)

Ní maith liom a bheith ag freagairt na ceiste seo in aon chor, ar an ábhar nach gnáthchumasc ná gnáthaonad iad so - cuimhnímis ar an lucht foghlama a léann an clár so - , ach tharla gur las tú an coinneall dóimid an snab!

Tharla go bhfuil tú á meas seo lena macasamhail Bhéarla cheana féin, ní miste amharc ar an teangain chéanna i dtaca le cumasc.

1. Take-over (ainmfhocal)
2. Take over (briather)
3. Overtake (briathar)

1. The take-over was commended by the public representatives.
2. She had to take over where the others left off.
3. He tried to overtake the ocatavia coming into a bad bend.

Tarlaíonn aonad ainmfhocail sa chás so i mBéarla na hÉireann:

4. The taking over of the plant was welcomed.

Caith do shúil orthu san más cabhair ar bith iad a Phil. Is sean-nós cainte i nGaeilg chomh maith le teangacha eile é. Cuimhnigh an méid a dúirt Antóin thuas, nach gá a bheith leis mar dhiantaighde. Mura bhfuil dúspéis i réim teangeolaíochta éigin cén bhrí a bheith leis. Is fearr glacadh leis an teagain mar atá, measaim agus a tréithe éagsúla a tharraingt chugat féin le himeacht ama.

Scéal gan leigheas, foighid is fearr air!

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Eíbhlin (62.254.32.4 - 62.254.32.4)
Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

dia diobh daoine,

Dublin is of the meaning Black Pool
Dubh- black
Linn - pool

so before in anchient times Dublin was known as
Black pool
it was then called Baile Átha Cliath which means town of the ford,
it was occupied by norse people who called it that,
so my guess is Dublin was a city on a ford in anchient days,
there was a pale around the city, (ie) a huge wall,
there where 3 gated to this pale hence the dublin crest!
Le Grá
Eíbhlin ;o)

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