for those of you starting to learn Irish

Tomás de Bhaldraithe, who edited the standard English Irish dictionary, when asked in his old age what project he was engaged on, always answered
"Ag foghlaim Gaeilge", learning Irish.

There will always be something new to learn, but don't give up just because somebody who is half a step ahead of you tells you you're all wrong !

Yes, if you didn't learn Irish on your mother's knee you'll always be a learner, as long as ou live. Still, there are many people who think in Irish, although not native speakers, which is quite a feat.

You can start to think in a language early on -- within limited parameters. When you engage in simple questions and answers, you will find yourself doing it without reference to English after not very long. Free-ranging thought is another matter. And even when you get to that point, you will see how long a way it is to functioning at the level of a native speaker -- That's part of what de Bhaldraithe was talking about. But of course, it's possible. So many people from (or even in) non-English speaking countries spend so much time speaking English, it becomes their "language of habitual use." Some -- including some people from Gaeltacht areas -- will even tell you they have forgotten the language they were raised with. But it comes back if you press them.

I ran into a friend in my this week who has been learning Irish for a long time. We were leaving the subway station in our neighborhood in New York. There is a troubled woman who hangs out there who always asks every passerby if they "have seventy-five" cents. When she asked us, my friend automatically said to her "níl" and resumed the conversation without missing a beat. He didn't even realize he said it in Irish.

Even if you learnt it at your mother knee, as I did, there is plenty more to learn!

I am seriously impressed by those people who are far from Ireland and manage to acheive scholarship in Irish, and I am well aware of the debt we owe to them

Yes, we do owe them a great debt.

The sad thing is that they are not generally well known about in Ireland, among the public. If Tadgh an Mhargaidh knew that people living abroad were going to such trouble to learn Irish then perhaps he might think to himself "well, maybe there's something in it after all".

Think in a language!!!?

Oliver, you've out-done yourself.

I can guarantee you with my hand on my heart that if we thought in a language, we'd all be as stupid as you.
My dog chases cars down my road, but only if they have a trailor on the back. But wait a minute, how did he learn English!!? I mean he musn't be able to think if he can't speak English!
There's two known species in the entire universe that can communicate thoughts and ideas with others. Humans and bottle-nose dolphins.

If someone was thinking about what to say to someone or thinking about how someone would react, then they would imagine themselves or that person speaking the language.

Other than that, no.

Now if you yourself thought in a language, then that would explain your stupidity.

-Phil

Phil,

C'mon, this pissing match that you're having with half the regular board contributors here is counterproductive. If you have constructive things to add to a discussion, great, by all means do. If all you want to do is hurl insults then please do it somewhere else.

Bradford

Phil,

It's probably for the best if you don't post here anymore. We've given you a chance but..... goodbye.

oh my dear god christ on a bike jesus mary and joseph god save me

I have been exiled by Oliver.

stay calm don't panic

c'mon think think god damn it

Oliver, grab yourself a dictionary, look for the word "pretentious", then tatoo that word on the back of your hand so that whenever you hear it, you'll be reminded.

Do any of yous really think that I intended to stay around to insult Oliver and the rest of his boyband!!?

I'm here because I have an interest in the Irish language. I came here to ask questions, get answers and maybe even GIVE a few answers. But then people like Oliver wanted to be heard. So I chose to give some abuse. I'm done now.

I take it yous all DO know that Oliver and his possie think that they own this place. Read over his post:

"We've given you a chance"

Sorry Oliver, but you're no leader. You're just a grown man competing with a 16 year old for dominance. But we can leave it up to the group to see who comes out on top.

This is one of those situations where one person goes "fuck off" and the other goes "no" and so then the first person forces the other to go or vice-versa. But unfortunately this is the internet, distinct from reality. I don't like you, you don't like me. I don't care. I don't give a shit. Is cuma liom.

If you really wanna hold a grudge against a boy you've never met and don't know, then go ahead, "bain sult as" as they say.

Idir an dá linn, I'll be engaged in coversation mainly regarding Gaeilge. Feel free to join in. One suggestion though, confirm your info before you start contradicting, it's common courtesy and tends to keep one out of the line of fire. I learned that in early childhood. Treat others the way you want to be treated. What goes around comes around. And so on.

-Phil

Oliver, A Chara,

I had pretty much decided to stop posting on Daltaí for personal reasons, but I didn't want to do so without saying something to you. I have never found your responses to be anything but encouraging and gracious as well as informative. Thank you for that.

Just a thought to ponder: It's been said that profanity is the pathetic crutch of an emotional cripple. It's also a clear sign of disrespect.

Beannacht, a chara,
Pádraig

"the pathetic crutch of an emotional cripple"

Perhaps, I don't know any emotional cripples. Other than you ofcourse.

"It's also a clear sign of disrespect"

If used in the correct context, then yes, it can be used as an effective tool to show disrespect and to insult.

When two people are sexually extracted to each other, they might kiss.

Based on your logic, it's incest to kiss your mother goodnight.

It's all about context.

-Phil

Táthar ag iarraidh ort go mbeadh do chuid teachtaireachtaí múinte agus bainteach leis an nGaeilge.

Phil. Phil, Phil, Phil----what to do with a boy like Phil??

After working for several months at a time in Latin America, where I was with few if any English speakers, I often found myself asking myself questions in Spanish. I found myself dreaming in Spanish and--oddly enough, I found myself thinking through processes in Spanish. This phenomenon is not unusual nor is it unfamiliar to those of us who have been fortunate enough to be immersed in a language. Immersed in the sense that one is totally dependent upon a language other than the native tongue for day to day functions such as eating, shopping and general interaction with the native population.

After extended trips, usually ones with a more remote nature to them, my wife would have to stop me in mid-conversation to get me to speak English. Spanish had become second nature to me due to the daily use and daily necessity. This is the concept behind any immersion workshop--make the participant dependent on the target language and develop an independence from the native language.

It's possible Phil, just maybe, that you have that not uncommon affliction that most teenagers have called bragadocio, attitude, arrogance, brashness, disrespectfulness, anti-social tendencies---I don't know--pick your favorite adjective to describe a young man who still can't figure out which end of the razor goes toward the face--that would apply to you, I do believe.

Next time you post, calm down, take a deep breath and ask yourself--will this make me look like an intelligent Irishman who represents the Irish speaking community well, or will it make me look like an annoying child who has recently learned how to string profanities together?

As yet, my young hooligan, you've had great success at the latter and displayed a dismal failure at the former.

Le meas, (With RESPECT--how ironic)

James

A few people do know about Daltai in Ireland, Oliver. I remember that when one of our number was on a summer immersion course in the Gaeltacht she mentioned the Gaeltacht weekends that Daltai runs. One young man looked at her said "You mean you've been there?" Bhí iontas an domhain air.

Ar an drochuair, nuair a fheiceann daoine an oiread sin Meireacánaigh, Astrálaigh, srl ag foghlaim na Gaeilge, 's é a deireann cuid díobh ná "Ní fhoghlaimíonn muide Gaeilge. Sin rud a dhéananns daoine thar lear ar spéis leo Éirinn agus nach dtuigeann gur cuma linne fá dtaobh di."

Ar an dea-uair, ní gá go mbeadh achan duine ar bord againn. Ligtear dóibh agus leantar ar aghaidh leis an dea-obair!

It's a good thing to think in Irish. Beginners can start by asking themselves practice questions: Cad é sin? Is cat é. Nach madadh é? Ní hea, ach cat? Cat bán nó cat dubh? Cat bán.
And you don't have to limit yourself to thinking to yourself. If you say the words out loud, you can talk to yourself (just do in private).

This can take someone a long way if they don't have access to Irish-speaking people. I read about a great linguist and language-learner who was recalling the time when he had this realization. He had been studying Navaho and was just sitting around one day (on a rock, if I remember this right) and starting idly asking himself questions in the language and answering them. He realized "I can speak Navaho!"

Just popped in here and must say this Phil chracter needs to go - never having been to this forum before, but as a learner of Gaeilge, I would become quickly discouraged if Phil were around much.

Ah, BTW - profanity is simply the sound of a weak mind trying to be heard.

Don't know him - don't want to, but the first impression is a telling one.

Deb, A Chara:

Céad Míle Faílte!! (I think those fadas are in the right place!!)

Don't let our young malcontent put you off. This is a great site with some really wonderful contributors. Phil is a rather recent arrival and has proven quite entertaining in a sophmoric, antagonistic kind of a way. He's really quite fun--he can be played like a cheap instrument if you only know what strings to pluck and, like a cheap instrument, you never know what note you'll get but you can bet it'll be off key.

Every once and while, though, you get a good note out of even the cheapest of instruments and that gives one hope. Question is, where does the hope rest? Is it with the instrument or with one's ability to play that instrument?

I rather think it's a combination of the two. A good musician can coax the appropriate tone from even the poorest quality instrument. In time, we'll get young Phil singing a bit more "on key"--it'll take time and patience but we'll get him there.

Oh well--I digress. Welcome to this site. Please stick around and join in whenever you feel like it!

Le meas,

James

Yous are a joke.

And see how I didn't have speak metaphorically.

-Phil

Pluck, Pluck---feeling like a harp are we Phil?

Táthar ag iarraidh ort go mbeadh do chuid teachtaireachtaí múinte agus bainteach leis an nGaeilge.

So anyway, we were talking about how you never stop learning a language no matter how much you know of it.

Any opinions?

-Phil

Even native speakers of a language have to work at it. There's a big difference between Shakespeare and some people we've all met. One big reason why we have schools!

A friend was telling me about a conversation with a fluent Irish speaker we know who does research on native Irish speakers in North America. He had remarked on the broad range of competence he finds. Some people who were raised with Irish speak it clumsily, others beautifully, as if they had never left the Gaeltacht. The latter bunch must be either people who keep in contact with the folks at home through Irish (not English, as some do) or, at least, they think to themselves in Irish. (I also read about a study some one did about Irish use in the U.S. and somehow determined that it was most often used on the telephone. Makes sense -- scattered native speakers calling home or their Gaeltacht friends and family here.)

I actually remember the point at which I realized, when learning French, that I no longer was translating my companion's words to English, forming my response in English, translating it back to French and then replying. It was such a revelation to me - that I was actually thinking in French now, when spoken to in French. - Very liberating from a linguistic sense. Since I've only been at Irish for a month now, I don't want to even think about how far away I am from that point but will celebrate the day when it does happen!

Thank you all for contributing so generously to this informative site. With your help, and a lot of hard work and dedication, I know I will get there!

Le meas
- Marilyn

If you've an okay knowledge of Irish, ie. Past Present Future Tense. Then at the Gaeltacht, alot of people become fluent in about a month.

-Phil