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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (January-June) » Eclipsis clarification más é do thoil é « Previous Next »

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Bradford (66.231.2.16 - 66.231.2.16)
Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,

I am reviewing eclipsis material in Learning Irish (Ó Siadhail). Most of the information is straight forward, but the following footnote confuses me:

"Although t, d are not affected, e.g. ar an doras, leis an tine, in all other cases where eclipsis is the rule, d changes to nd and t changes to dt."

Ó Siadhail says that t and d aren't affected, but then he says they eclipse to nd and dt. What am I missing here? Of course he gives no examples of what he's saying!

By the way, the dialect is Cois Fhairrge.

Go raibh maith for your help!

Slán,

Bradford

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Oliver Grennan (193.122.47.170 - 193.122.47.170)
Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi Bradford,

I don't have a copy of O'S.

He says "in all other cases", so he must have cited a case just previously where no eclipsis occurs. Give us the sentence just b4 this one.

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Bradford (66.231.2.9 - 66.231.2.9)
Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Oliver,

That's the problem... All he does is give eclipsis examples before the text that I quoted. Here are the examples he gives, if that helps:

cloch -> ar an gcloch
pota -> faoin bpota
gasúr -> leis an ngasúr mór
bád -> ar an mbád
fuinneoig -> ar an bhfuinneoig mhór
fear -> leis an bhfear

Perhaps you now have an appreciation for why I am so confused. :-)

Slán,

Bradford

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Pádraig Mac G. (205.244.12.112 - 205.244.12.112)
Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 11:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chara Bradford,

Taking this eclipsis matter one step at a time, WHEN initial D or initial T are eclipsed, they become ND and DT respectively.

I believe the reference in O'S is to the rule that says words with initial D or T are not eclipsed after the definite article "an." Hence at the door = ag an doras, not ag an ndoras.

He then goes on to reassert that in cases where the initial D and T are eclipsed, they become ND and DT.

And yes there are times when words with initial T or D are eclipsed. One such case is when a verb follows the interrogative particle "an." (Which can easily be confused with the definite article.)

Do you understand = "an dtugann tú?" The declarative form is "tugann tú" (no eclipse)

An dtugann tú, mo chara?

Slán,
Pádraig

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Bradford (66.231.2.91 - 66.231.2.91)
Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 11:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Phádraig, a chara,

Tuigim, mo chara. :-) Go raibh maith agat!

What you say makes sense. I think Ó Siadhail's example was either poorly worded, poorly explained, or both.

Le méas,

Bradford

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Phil (159.134.209.7 - 159.134.209.7)
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Chonaic mé é i ndiaidh an lae.

'i' takes an urú.

Chonaic mé é i dteach na mainistir.

-

Tá an leabhar ar an mbord.

"ar an" takes an urú. as does "leis an, faoin, as an, ag an, ón". I think it's called the accusative case. It takes an urú, but it has ONE irregualrity:

Tá sé ag an doras.

There definitely should be an urú on "doras". But the rule is that there isn't.

Tá sé ag féachaint ar an dteilifís.

I put an urú on a t. I've seen it written with and without.

You have a choice whether to follow those rules. For example:

An ólann tú?
An n-ólann tú?

Take your pick.

Ag an doras. (my favourite)
Ag an ndoras.

Ar an teilifís.
Ar an dteilifís. (my favourite)

-Phil

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Bradford (66.231.3.135 - 66.231.3.135)
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Phil, a chara,

Go raibh maith agat for the examples!

Slán,

Bradford

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Seosamh (12.42.245.2 - 12.42.245.2)
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Ag an ndoras' is very Munsterish.

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Bradford (216.16.15.66 - 216.16.15.66)
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Sheosamh,

Thank you very much for that clarification. I try to stick to Cois Fhairrge as much as possible.

Slán,

Bradford

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