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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2003 (January-June) » Ar chor/ar chor ar bith? « Previous Next »

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Doreen Ford Bruscell (209.1.121.197 - 209.1.121.197)
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chairde: I have been away from my studies for awhile. I am using Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish and am going back over the first several lessons doing the exercises. I have gotten the use of ar bith vs ar chor ar bith wrong every single time and am not sure what I'm missing! Can someone help me?
Go raibh maith 'ad
Dóirín

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Oliver Grennan (193.122.47.178 - 193.122.47.178)
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Doreen,
What is the specific problem. Here's an example for each:

Ní raibh focail ar both aige.
He didn't say a word.

Ní aontaím leat ar chor ar bith.
I don't agree with you whatsoever.

Hope this helps,

Oliver.

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Oliver Grennan (193.122.47.170 - 193.122.47.170)
Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Sorry, corrction (bhí mé ag titim i mo chodladh!)

Ní raibh focal ar bith aige.
He didn't say a word.

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Doreen Ford Bruscell (209.1.121.195 - 209.1.121.195)
Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Oliver: Sorry to take so long to thank you for your response. My computer access is limited.
It's difficult to pose a question when you don't know what you're asking, but I'll try again.
In Lesson 2,ÓSiadhail introduces 'ar bith' as 'any...(at all), no...(at all). My first thought was that the (at all) was implied. Examples from the exercises are:
1)There aren't any doors at all here. = Níl doirse ar bith anseo.
2)There is no lamp at all. = Níl lampa ar bith ann.
'Ar chor ar bith' is introduced in Lesson 3 as meaning 'at all'. So then I think that the two have to go together to mean 'any at all'. Then there are the following examples:
1)There aren't any (news)papers here at all. = Níl páipéir ar bith anseo. (Why not 'ar chor ar bith' here?)
2)There is no college at all. = Níl coláiste ar bith anseo ar chor ar bith. (Typo?)

Which word or phrase means 'any', which means 'at all', which means 'any at all', or does it even matter?
Does 'ar chor' ever stand alone?
Is this one of those instances where a set phrase has come to mean something that cannot be simply explained by the words themselves?
I appreciate any help with this.
Le Meas
Dóirín

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James (209.48.182.219 - 209.48.182.219)
Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhóirín, A Chara:

I'll take a stab at this, as much for your information as my education. I believe that "ar bith" can be undertood to mean "any" in the context of "any at all" as opposed to "any one" or "any person". This I gather from example 2, lesson 3---Níl coláiste ar bith anseo ar chor ar bith. There isn't any college here (not any) at all.

Similarly:

Níl duine ar bith anseo ar chor ar bith meaning "There isn't anybody here at all".

Contrast this with

Aon duine fáilte or Fáilte aon duine (not sure which would be correct) meaning Anyone is welcome.

My dictionary lists duine ar bith as a noun usage and aon duine as a pronoun usage.

I hope this helps you. I know in my mind what I perceive the difference to be, but I'm not sure I've done a very good job putting it to words. (I also hope I'm right!!!) Someone will set us both straight soon enough.

Le meas,

James

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Al Evans (208.188.101.145 - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

My guess would be that "ar bith" is used alone when there's a noun it refers to:

Níl doras ar bith anseo. There's no door at all here.

(Here, "ar bith" seems to modify "doras")

And "ar chor ar bith" is used when there's not:

Níl doras anseo ar chor ar bith. There's not a door here at all.

(Here, the "ar chor ar bith" seems to modify "anseo")

The problem would seem to be that the two mean substantially the same thing:-)

--Al Evans

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Oliver Grennan (193.122.47.162 - 193.122.47.162)
Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well,
from seeing the usage of both phrases this is my opinion.

You say "ar bith" when it's something physical or tangible or that you can count.
"ní raibh focal ar bith aige"
"an bhfaca tú duine ar bith?"

But you use "ar chor ar bith" to refer to intangible objects.

"Ní aontaím leat ar chor ar bith."
I don't agree with you at all.
"An bhfuil suim agat ann ar chor ar bith?"
Have you any interest in it at all?

It would seem incorrect to me to reply:
"Níl suim ar bith agam ann"
better,
"níl suim agam ann ar chor ar bith".

Sin an nós a fheicim de gnáth.
That's the convention I see anyway.

Hope this helps,
Oliver.

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Aonghus (193.120.237.66 - 193.120.237.66)
Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Ar chor ar bith" is emphasising the absence,
sort of like "at all at all"

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Doreen Ford Bruscell (209.1.121.195 - 209.1.121.195)
Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chairde:
Go raibh maith agaibh! I was thinking perhaps it had to do with tangible/intangible, indeed, "at all at all" came to mind. (Are you guys psychic, too?) Anyway, thanks for reading my mind. Your responses were so helpful and I really appreciate having this site to come to with my questions.
Le meas
Dóirín

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